Anyone heard the Doctor Who news?

[TheMaster666]

I disagree with people saying the Doctor has always been a masculine character. If you look back over the years, its normally been a very nerdy, floopy haired brainy, socially awkward type. Doesn't sound that masculine to me. What modern culture has proved is that women can be nerdy, and brainy, and awkward. Not only can they, but they should be allowed to. One thing I liked about Whittaker as a choice was that she didn't conform to the standard stuffy middle class type. The point stands there's no logical reason why you can't have a female doctor. Even if it was written in the text, it doesn't change much to change that. Its Sci-fi afterall, not a flippy Mike Leigh film.

Maybe David Tennant and Matt Smith conform to that narrow depiction of the Doctor, but are you really going to tell me the original Grandfather incarnation, or Jon Pertwee the suave, Venusian Akido-fighting, doting father to Jo, James Bond-type were "nerdy, floppy haired, brainy, socially awkward types"? There's no way I can imagine those versions as women and still being the same character. Same for Tom Baker or McCoy's "Professor" or pretty much any of the original Doctors. And I'll count Eccleston in that too, since his version drew more inspiration from Pat Troughton's cosmic hobo, whom he remembered watching as a kid, as opposed to Tennant who grew up on Tom. You're free to disagree, of course, to each his own, but to me the Doctor is a fundamentally male character. There absolutely SHOULD be more female timelords of comparable strength and skill as the Doctor, e.g. Rani, River Song, Romana, but the Doctor himself is male. And again this is more guided by all 50--sorry now nearly 60--years, rather than just the nu series. Not to say there aren't plenty of classic fans who would agree with you, but that's my take.

I'll agree if you look at just at the rebooted Dr Who, then sure having a woman Doctor isn't that big of a deal, which is why Missy wasn't a big deal (well except for the BBC intentionally driving up controversy in a failed bid to save ratings). But I think that says more about how little the writers of the Moffat and even RTD era care for canonical consistency. They're constantly making things up and rewriting already established ideas, sometimes on flimsy excuses (Day of the Doctor comes to mind). Although Moffat was a bigger offender of this than Davies.

Yeah but come on, those crappy Lucas prequels were far worse than the newer films. I think most SW fans would see some value in the new films. Again another ugly side to online fandom. People not accepting a female lead in a SW film, not accepting a black character in one of the big roles etc... Once again people not moving with the times. Yawn.

I always thought the prequels were great. The romance of Attack of the Clones, maybe not, and certainly some dialogue (I hate sand) could've been better, but the ultimate story was more interesting than even the originals. Great score, great planets and battles, great duels, great characters, I can go on. If nothing else, it was at least original, not a really piss poor do-over of the original trilogy with garbage actor replacements. Ironic thing about it too is they had a final chance to reunite Mark, Carrie, and Harrison and instead they killed off the surviving actors' characters yet kept Leia and showed her footage posthumously. Notice I didn't say anything about having female leads or black actors. Nobody complains about Lando Calrissian or Bastila from KOTOR for a reason.

 

[NileQT87]

Or in the real world where David Tennant is the most popular Doctor of all time (not just because he's unconventionally hot!--he's a damn good actor and charismatic!), followed by Tom Baker, and Matt Smith still is also quite well loved, we just remove what has gone very wrong about Jodie Whittaker's time on the show, brush yet more failed retcons under the rug and go back to what works best in the modern age. Focus on what will bring back all the key demographics that were chased away by both Peter Capaldi and Jodie Whittaker and the show will course correct itself. It's been through some very rough patches before, though this incarnation has definitely come closest to breaking suspension of disbelief.

Doctor Who has lots of experience with pretending things like the Morbius Doctors (Timeless Child v1.0 with Morbius showing a whole bunch of unknown Doctor incarnations belonging to production personnel in funny costumes--it's best to just imagine that those are incarnations of Morbius instead with the Fourth Doctor fighting back mentally), Looms, the Other and being half-human on his mother's side (which was a copycat of Spock, though reared its head again with Moffat's Hybrid) can be shoved deep into the memory hole. The Timeless Child garbage should happily join that much-maligned list that hardly anyone outside of the hardcore nerds know about.

Let us finally recognize that the Doctor has always identified as male (with a clear preference for female companions) with a whole list of intrinsically male behavioral traits that completely failed to translate by a particularly atrocious female performer who knew sod all about the Doctor's characterization (with key consistent traits that were 100% carried through every Doctor until her--yes, NuWho Doctors included!), and that female audiences are some of the most-outspoken critics of taking a character that was indeed something of a forbidden fruit female fantasy that also broke the formula of female audience members identifying with the companions being whisked away by the wonderful, but also imperfect, Madman with a Box.

Chris Chibnall really did not understand that some of his fiercest blowback would come from the women he thought he was courting with his cheap, lazy gimmick that wasn't even written recognizably. Jodie doesn't know enough to know what is missing (the fact that the humorous, happy-go-lucky façade is a fake covering up for some very flawed traits going all the way back to William Hartnell's far-from-cozy beginnings and an ability to turn deadly serious in an instant), so ends up insulting a lot of knowledgeable viewers who aren't just men.

Most of the adulation from certain corners of the media and social media were people who genuinely don't give a crap about genre shows and bailed out of it as soon as the gimmick wore off and they remembered that they don't watch shows like this. Chris and Jodie only cared about what those loud voices were saying and accused anyone who wasn't on board of having no objections deeper than her gender. Remaining true to the character was never the point.

As for the continuity between Classic and NuWho, while it did begin as a slow drip of continuity for a very good reason, we can firmly say that got obliterated as an argument as soon as RTD himself was bringing back Classic companions, monsters and referencing all sorts of continuity bits. He just did it in a way that you didn't have to watch 50-year-old television (some of which is missing!) to understand and could still enjoy it regardless. You don't have to know what every little Easter egg means or which events were little nods to earlier continuity, but it was still accessible. However, he wasn't afraid of letting you know it was the same show still.

Whether that be RTD bringing back Sarah Jane, K-9, the Brigadier and Jo, or Moffat acknowledging the Brigadier's death on screen, having Kate Stewart from the '90s straight-to-video productions and bringing back Tom Baker, there were so many ways in which it was made clear that it's the same old Doctor with a new face, regardless of how the television formats continue to change. After all, this is a show that began in black & white and turned to color. It's a show that has gone from self-contained serials to seasonal/character arcs (episodic, but with modern serialized inter-connectivity). It's a show that began practically being filmed like live theater with many of the bloopers left in because they weren't allowed to cut the videotape too many times, as it was scheduled to be wiped as soon as it was transferred (or not) to film for international broadcasts in very remote regions of the world. The Zarbi (giant alien ants) boinked right into the Vaseline-smeared camera and it's there forever for chortles. LOL.

The gang of writers (plus David Tennant, who had done a bunch of niche Big Finish audios and begged his way into a cartoon before ever playing the Doctor, and Peter Capaldi being old-school fans) working on the show were practically all Classic-era fans since childhood, many of whom were writing novels and for Big Finish before the show even was brought back. RTD, Moffat, Gatiss, etc... were certainly not strangers to DW before the revival. Matt Smith didn't know it due to growing up during the decline and then the wilderness years, but loved what he saw of Classic Who enough to completely change what Moffat had envisioned to be more like what he had seen. Chris Chibnall's old-school fanboy cred. is most infamously a clip of him on television in the '80s complaining about the writing (which is utterly hilarious in retrospect). Though, to be fair, Moffat has an utterly godawful interview from 1995 where he managed to trash every actor who ever appeared on the show outside of Troughton, Davison and McCoy (oh, yes, he even trashed Tom Baker). Even Moffat was embarrassed by what he said. Jodie couldn't look past her own gender to figure out who the Doctor has been since 1963. Imagine if Matt hadn't been given that Tomb of the Cybermen DVD by David and had just gone along with whatever Moffat was wanting out of ignorance. Because that's what Jodie did.

There's just this chasm of difference between how much love you see poured out for the Classic show and the honest belief that it's the same story being told in the RTD/Moffat eras compared to now. This era spends more time criticizing everything before it, rather than being a love letter to it.

Trust me. If they made an Adventures of Romanadvoratrelundar spinoff, I'd be watching it. Fun fact: Juliet Landau played Romana III for Big Finish! If you want a femme!Doctor, you've already got one who is also her own distinct character and who isn't just the Doctor feminized either.

 

[TheMaster666]

The problem is that it was written how you said, as a reboot, but it wanted to be a sequel to cash in on the original's fame

Pretty much. After seeing the classic series it became obvious that the "continuation" or "revival" was really more of a reboot. But even the reboot itself would get rebooted once Moffat took over, and there on out every time a new lead actor joins, it seems. Calling it "new" who doesn't even make any sense anymore when I'm sure some of the show's fans are younger than the "new" show. Most other tv would have ended by 7-9 seasons yet it's on like 12 or 13 or something.

Or in the real world where David Tennant is the most popular Doctor of all time (not just because he's unconventionally hot!),

Yep, that's entirely why. The whole Dr. companion romance thing never belonged, and I blame the awful tv movie from '96 for introducing that. That is probably the primary reason for bringing in the young female demographic, and as soon as it ended mysteriously ratings dropped. No offense to Tennant, I love his iteration, but I think the others were also just as good in their own way.

followed by Tom Baker

Again, love Tom, but I think the reason for his enormous popularity is because he did it longer than anybody else (7 years), and it was his era that originally got more exposure in U.S. and international audiences in reruns. It certainly helps too that he's got many classics from his era like Genesis of the Daleks, Talons of Weng-Chiang, and City of Death, to name a very, very few. People love Robert Holmes' scripts and his partiality to the gothic, horror side of things, as well as the great Douglas Adams who helmed the show in the later years. Then since his era had so much early exposure, I think it sort of became received knowledge over time that he was "the best" because he happened to be the one most people got more exposure too. Which only creates a feedback loop, since advertisers expect Tom Baker stories to be the most popular and drag in more viewers, which is why 70-80% of the Pluto.tv classic who channel is Tom Baker, with a small handful of popular stories from other Doctors.

Let us finally recognize that the Doctor has always identified as male (with a clear preference for female companions) with a whole list of intrinsically male behavioral traits that completely failed to translate by a particularly atrocious female performer who knew sod all about the Doctor's characterization (with key consistent traits that were 100% carried through every Doctor until her--yes, NuWho Doctors included!), and that female audiences are some of the most outspoken critics of taking a character that was indeed something of a forbidden fruit female fantasy that also broke the formula of female audience members identifying with the companions being whisked away.

Chris Chibnall really did not understand that some of his fiercest blowback would come from the women he thought he was courting with his cheap, lazy gimmick that wasn't even written recognizably. Jodie doesn't know enough to know what is missing (the fact that the humorous, happy-go-lucky façade is a fake covering up for some very flawed traits going all the way back to William Hartnell's far-from-cozy beginnings and an ability to turn deadly serious in an instant), so ends up insulting a lot of knowledgeable viewers who aren't just men.

Most of the adulation from certain corners of the media and social media were people who genuinely don't give a crap about genre shows and bailed out of it as soon as the gimmick wore off and they remembered that they don't watch shows like this. Chris and Jodie only cared about what those loud voices were saying and accused anyone who wasn't on board of having no objections deeper than her gender. Remaining true to the character was never the point.

As for the continuity between Classic and NuWho, while it did begin as a slow drip of continuity for a very good reason, we can firmly say that got obliterated as an argument as soon as RTD himself was bringing back Classic companions, monsters and referencing all sorts of continuity bits. He just did it in a way that you didn't have to watch 50-year-old television (some of which is missing!) to understand and could still enjoy it regardless. You don't have to know what every little Easter egg means or what events were little nods to earlier continuity, but it was still accessible. However, he wasn't afraid of letting you know it was the same show still.

Whether that be RTD bringing back Sarah Jane, K-9, the Brigadier and Jo, or Moffat acknowledging the Brigadier's death on screen, there were so many ways in which it was made clear that it's the same old Doctor with a new face, regardless of how the television formats continue to change. After all, this is a show that began in black & white and turned to color. It's a show that has gone from self-contained serials to seasonal/character arcs (episodic, but with modern serialized inter-connectivity). It's a show that began practically being filmed like live theater with many of the bloopers left in because they weren't allowed to cut the videotape too many times. The Zarbi (giant alien ants) boinked right into the Vaseline-smeared camera and it's there forever for chortles. LOL.

The gang of writers (plus David Tennant, who had done a bunch of niche Big Finish audios and begged his way into a cartoon before ever playing the Doctor, and Peter Capaldi being old-school fans) working on the show were practically all Classic era fans since childhood, many of whom were writing novels and for Big Finish before the show even was brought back. RTD, Moffat, Gatiss, etc... were certainly not strangers to DW before the revival. Matt Smith didn't know it due to growing up during the decline and then the wilderness years, but loved what he saw of Classic Who enough to completely change what Moffat had envisioned to be more like what he had seen. Chris Chibnall's old-school fanboy cred. is most infamously a clip of him on television in the '80s complaining about the writing (which is utterly hilarious in retrospect). Jodie couldn't look past her own gender to figure out who the Doctor has been since 1963. Imagine if Matt hadn't been given that Tomb of the Cybermen DVD by David and had just gone along with whatever Moffat was wanting out of ignorance. Because that's what Jodie did.

There's just this chasm of difference between how much love you see poured out for the Classic show and the honest belief that it's the same story being told in the RTD/Moffat eras compared to now. This era spends more time criticizing everything before it, rather than being a love letter to it.

Wow. Well said.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

One thing I liked about Whittaker as a choice was that she didn't conform to the standard stuffy middle class type. The point stands there's no logical reason why you can't have a female doctor. Even if it was written in the text, it doesn't change much to change that. Its Sci-fi afterall, not a flippy Mike Leigh film.

You've admitted you didn't even watch the show. The Doctor is a man, that's why they shouldn't have a woman playing him. Just like James Bond is a man and shouldn't be played by a woman.

Someone in this discussion has already outright said they don't want a female doctor again ever.

And a lot of people would agree with them because the Doctor is supposed to be a man.

That's a bit like saying no matter how good she is in the role you wouldn't want her just because it wouldn't conform to some narrow idea people have of what the Doctor should be.

You could apply this logic to any fictional character. Why should Storm be played by a black woman (even though that's how she's always been portrayed) if a white woman can do just as good a job? Why can't a new Buffy be male since a man can handle the physical side of the job just as well, if not better, than SMG did in the original? Oh that's right, gender and race swaps are only allowed to work one way.

move with the time. Afterall by putting a woman in such a role it normalise it. Maybe teenage girls who wouldn't normally watch the show might be drawn into it. It might be a cliche, but its progress.

The "move with the times" argument falls flat. We've had this discussion before.

Yeah but come on, those crappy Lucas prequels were far worse than the newer films. I think most SW fans would see some value in the new films. Again another ugly side to online fandom. People not accepting a female lead in a SW film, not accepting a black character in one of the big roles etc... Once again people not moving with the times. Yawn.

It's trendy to blame fans for not liking something that's full of crap writing just because the product went out of its way to tick boxes.

@burrunjor Given that timelords can apparently now change their gender, does that mean it is theoretically possible for a time lord to impregnate themselves? For example could Capaldi's Doctor have had a wank, kept the produced product and stored it, then when he regenerated into Jodie's Doctor, she could've taken said product and inseminated herself and thus be pregnant with a child where he/she is both the father and mother?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Oh that's right, gender and race swaps are only allowed to work one way.

From my limited knowledge I always assumed that because the doctor was a body-changing alien the body could be anything and it was just randomly assigned. That's why there was always the hope of being a ginger.

Unlike the other examples you listed above, none of those were body-changing aliens. So changing gender wouldn't make as much sense.

 

[Mr Trick]

You've admitted you didn't even watch the show. The Doctor is a man, that's why they shouldn't have a woman playing him. Just like James Bond is a man and shouldn't be played by a woman.



And a lot of people would agree with them because the Doctor is supposed to be a man.



You could apply this logic to any fictional character. Why should Storm be played by a black woman (even though that's how she's always been portrayed) if a white woman can do just as good a job? Why can't a new Buffy be male since a man can handle the physical side of the job just as well, if not better, than SMG did in the original? Oh that's right, gender and race swaps are only allowed to work one way.



The "move with the times" argument falls flat. We've had this discussion before.




It's trendy to blame fans for not liking something that's full of crap writing just because the product went out of its way to tick boxes.

@burrunjor Given that timelords can apparently now change their gender, does that mean it is theoretically possible for a time lord to impregnate themselves? For example could Capaldi's Doctor have had a wank, kept the produced product and stored it, then when he regenerated into Jodie's Doctor, she could've taken said product and inseminated herself and thus be pregnant with a child where he/she is both the father and mother?

I wasn't talking about it being a man I was talking about the character not being typically mascaline. I'm male and I wouldn't call myself typically that mascaline. At the end of the day if somethings good its good. Besides the sexist idiots people won't complain if a female James Bond is good. I'm not saying I want a female James Bond or that it should happen. I'm just saying there's no real reason for it not to happen, and there's no reason why it has to be bad thing.

I wouldn't be bothered if they did a male slayer. But again the key point your missing is that men typically dominate action type roles. You seem to think that by putting a man in that role it makes it empowering or than its the man who needs to feel empowered. That's be clean on our history here.

It doesn't fall flat. The reality in life is that you can't look back and should always move with the times.

I've come across those fans online and have heard other people complain about them so I know they exist. Besides why do you take the attitude that everything with diversity is just to tick a box rather than just moving with the times and relfecting reality. There's nothing about those Star Wars films which feel like box ticking. There was a female as a main character in the original trilogy. I bet nobody was complaining about that in the 70s/80s. In the 2010s shouldn't we be casting females in lead roles in Sci-fi's? There's a diverse cast because it speaks to a modern audience and times have changed. There are themes that deal with diversity because it makes sense for a current SW film to do with those themes. Again this is Sci-fi/fantasy. The point is to use the fantastical to tackle real issues.

 

[burrunjor]

You've admitted you didn't even watch the show. The Doctor is a man, that's why they shouldn't have a woman playing him. Just like James Bond is a man and shouldn't be played by a woman.



And a lot of people would agree with them because the Doctor is supposed to be a man.



You could apply this logic to any fictional character. Why should Storm be played by a black woman (even though that's how she's always been portrayed) if a white woman can do just as good a job? Why can't a new Buffy be male since a man can handle the physical side of the job just as well, if not better, than SMG did in the original? Oh that's right, gender and race swaps are only allowed to work one way.



The "move with the times" argument falls flat. We've had this discussion before.




It's trendy to blame fans for not liking something that's full of crap writing just because the product went out of its way to tick boxes.

@burrunjor Given that timelords can apparently now change their gender, does that mean it is theoretically possible for a time lord to impregnate themselves? For example could Capaldi's Doctor have had a wank, kept the produced product and stored it, then when he regenerated into Jodie's Doctor, she could've taken said product and inseminated herself and thus be pregnant with a child where he/she is both the father and mother?

LMAO I never realised that but yes! They could. That is how stupid an idea it is.

Moffat apparently was going to have Missy be pregnant and John Simm be the dad but he thankfully didn't go through with it.

The big problem with the new who writers is that they are focused on the wrong thing. You don't need to keep messing around with regeneration. Think up new ideas. Imagine if all Buffy had ever done was focus on rewriting the Slayer mythology every ****ing year rather than coming up with new monsters and villains.

 

[NileQT87]

And just because I know it will infuriate some purists around here, here's the lovely Katy Manning herself on how Jo felt about the Doctor:

https://spacegranted.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F158898640297

And bonus:

https://spacegranted.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F158084131407

 

[DeadlyDuo]

rom my limited knowledge I always assumed that because the doctor was a body-changing alien the body could be anything and it was just randomly assigned. That's why there was always the hope of being a ginger.

The next Doctor should be ginger, there seems to be red head erasure lately.

Unlike the other examples you listed above, none of those were body-changing aliens. So changing gender wouldn't make as much sense.

Doesn't matter, People will race swap and gender swap characters to tick a box. They had a black Anne Boleyn, they race swapped a real life historical figure to tick a box. My point is you will never see them turn a black character white or a female character male.

I'm male and I wouldn't call myself typically that mascaline.

You're masculine by virtue of being a man. You're not a woman therefore you're not feminine. You can be effeminate in comparison to a more masculine man but you will never be feminine. Your biology prevents you from being so.

At the end of the day if somethings good its good.

And yet when something is not good and people complain, they get blamed for not liking the piece of crap whilst being accused of being "sexist" or "racist".

Besides the sexist idiots people won't complain if a female James Bond is good.

It won't be Bond. A woman can't play James Bond because James Bond is not a woman.

They can create a new female spy character that is equally as skilled as Bond but she will never be James Bond. They're on dodgy ground with giving the 007 moniker to a female character in No Time to Die but at least it can be argued that it's a codename rather than the character himself (even though 007 is synonymous with Bond).

I'm not saying I want a female James Bond or that it should happen. I'm just saying there's no real reason for it not to happen, and there's no reason why it has to be bad thing.

Because Bond is not a woman, that is a very real reason for it not to happen.

I wouldn't be bothered if they did a male slayer.

Really? Even though it would go against the whole slayer mythology and what it's supposed to represent?

But again the key point your missing is that men typically dominate action type roles. You seem to think that by putting a man in that role it makes it empowering or than its the man who needs to feel empowered. That's be clean on our history here.

So rather than creating NEW female characters, you'd rather they just gender bend male ones.

It doesn't fall flat. The reality in life is that you can't look back and should always move with the times.

It does fall flat. By your logic, the current "times" are that black people are victims by virtue of being black, and since they're not Michael Jackson, they're never going to stop being black and so will always be victims unless they have a white saviour to save them. Therefore in order to "move with the times" any portrayal of a black person in movies and television must be that of victimhood until a neon haired white person comes to rescue them from their "oppression".

I've come across those fans online and have heard other people complain about them so I know they exist.

So you've seen someone go "I saw a great movie the other day. The writing was top notch, the performances stellar, the costumes and locations were fantastic, but the main lead was a woman and it completely ruined the whole experience"?

Besides why do you take the attitude that everything with diversity is just to tick a box rather than just moving with the times and relfecting reality.

Firstly, apparently reality is getting increasingly subjective eg there is now more than two genders and more than three sexualities.

Secondly, "diversity" in it's current definition is basically "we need to get rid of straight white men or at the very least diminish their presence because they are the enemy of wokeness".

There's nothing about those Star Wars films which feel like box ticking. There was a female as a main character in the original trilogy. I bet nobody was complaining about that in the 70s/80s.

So people like Leia but didn't like Rey. Both are females. Don't you think that people's issues with Rey might have been for other reasons that have nothing to do with her gender?

In the 2010s shouldn't we be casting females in lead roles in Sci-fi's?

Shouldn't we be casting people based on their ability rather than what they have (or don't have) between their legs, what colour they are or who they choose to sleep with?

Wasn't Ripley originally envisioned as a man in the Alien movies before Sigourney Weaver got the role?

There's a diverse cast because it speaks to a modern audience and times have changed.

Box ticking. Black guy? Check! Gay character? Check! Female character! Check!

Shows that are overly "woke" don't do well.

There are themes that deal with diversity because it makes sense for a current SW film to do with those themes.

You missed a J out.

Again this is Sci-fi/fantasy. The point is to use the fantastical to tackle real issues.

Except "real issues" are being inserted into shows with a lecture about said issues eg the global warming and plastic in the ocean episode of Doctor Who.

The X-Men have always been about racism. However the racism was humans vs mutants, not skin colour. It didn't matter whether you were black, white, blue or any other colour, you were hated because of what you were, not what colour you were. This also led to a unity in the face of adversity metaphor. Not all mutants were good, not all humans were bad, but the X-Men has one of the most organically diverse cast of characters in the history of comics because of its characters coming from all over the world.

Sooner or later the X-Men will be coming to the MCU. Being a mutant is enough to cover all the -isms, we don't need Storm bitching to Gambit about how hard it is to be a black woman whilst he's evil because he's a straight white guy from the south and thus bears some responsibility for slavery because of his colour, gender and where he comes from.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Also on other forums people get angry if you make a distinction between New Who and Classic Who.

This isn't other forums lol

Batman Begins

Batman Begins was a terrible movie lol - and it bastardized its source material

Him suddenly wanting to be with the Doctor is stupid.

Again, can you please point out to me where this happened because I would genuinely like to go back and rewatch that part.

And personally I think the idea his sexuality changed when he became a woman turns the whole thing into a farce. You telling me if Roger Delgado had fallen and bumped his head, there was a chance he could have turned into a woman and wanted to sleep with Jon Pertwee LOL.

I don't understand why biologically changing someone into a woman wouldn't have the possibility of changing sexual orientation? Doesn't have to, but it's not far fetched that it would.

Or in the real world where David Tennant is the most popular Doctor of all time (not just because he's unconventionally hot!--he's a damn good actor and charismatic!), followed by Tom Baker, and Matt Smith still is also quite well loved, we just remove what has gone very wrong about Jodie Whittaker's time on the show, brush yet more failed retcons under the rug and go back to what works best in the modern age.

Hear hear 🙂

Why can't a new Buffy be male

They did that in the comics (sort of), and it was terrible. You could do it, but you'd have to have a heck of a good explanation for it to make it work. This is the problem with the Doctor being a woman. They didn't deal with any of it, and they made her androgynous instead of actually making her a woman as a story choice with reasons for it happening in the narrative and having the Doctor deal with the fact that he was now a woman. Basically it was a trouser role for a female instead of actually making the role female.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Basically it was a trouser role for a female instead of actually making the role female.

I can agree with that. And if there wasn't so much fanfare I would say maybe that was by choice, or their intent, but the fact they lauded it being a new female doctor renders the idea that gender doesn't matter pointless.

 

[burrunjor]

This isn't other forums lol



Batman Begins was a terrible movie lol - and it bastardized its source material



Again, can you please point out to me where this happened because I would genuinely like to go back and rewatch that part.



I don't understand why biologically changing someone into a woman wouldn't have the possibility of changing sexual orientation? Doesn't have to, but it's not far fetched that it would.



Hear hear 🙂



They did that in the comics (sort of), and it was terrible. You could do it, but you'd have to have a heck of a good explanation for it to make it work. This is the problem with the Doctor being a woman. They didn't deal with any of it, and they made her androgynous instead of actually making her a woman as a story choice with reasons for it happening in the narrative and having the Doctor deal with the fact that he was now a woman. Basically it was a trouser role for a female instead of actually making the role female.

I agree with the final statement that it was basically a trouser role for a woman, and that's why it was crap and why a female Doctor is a bad idea in general. Either if you do make it feminine and deal with the repurcussions and you get away from all of the MALE predecessors which is a bad thing as we have been over, as the character is a man. Or you do what they did in which case what is the point?

As for Missy well personally I think she is as bad as Jodie, if not worse in some ways. She's bad in all the same areas. IE she was cast for political posturing, she was cast because of nepotism. (She's a friend of Moffhack the same way Jodie was of Chinballs.) Her fans were pushy bullies who smeared people as sexists if they didn't like her on most forums.

And yes he suddenly fancying the Doctor because she is a woman is like a bad parody. What you suddenly go from hating a guy more than anything to wanting to shag him because you grow lady parts? It's utterly absurd.

And sorry but how can anyone think Batman Begins bastardised the source material, but Missy is okay? If Missy isn't considered a bastardisation of a character, then such a thing does not exist. Seriously pick out the most ridiculous, or bland adaptation of any long running character like say Jared Leto's Joker and it is NOTHING compared to Missy.

Missy made Jared Leto look like Mark Hamill as the Joker she was that piss poor.

Sorry but it seems that once again you seem to be avoiding what was in the story to make something in New Who fit.

Still here are bits from actual scripts featuring Missy which I copy and pasted from a website called DW transcripts.

MISSY: I am programmed for self-repair. I am maintained by my heart.
(Missy takes the Doctor's hand and places it on her bosom.)
MISSY: Is everything in order?
DOCTOR: Who maintains your heart?
MISSY: My heart is maintained by the Doctor.

DOCTOR: Two hearts.
MISSY: And both of them yours.

DOCTOR: Clara. Clara. Clara. I've got to get Clara!
(The Doctor runs to the lift door.)
MISSY: Oh, Clara, Clara, Clara! You know I should shoot you in a jealous rage. Now, wouldn't that be sexy? I've turned the lift off, though.

MISSY: You will, because you don't have a choice. There's only way you can stop these clouds from opening up and killing all your little pets down here. Conquer the universe, Mister President. Show a bad girl how it's done.
(Missy drops a deep curtsy. The Doctor rips the bracelet off.)
DOCTOR: Why are you doing this?
MISSY: I need you to know we're not so different. I need my friend back. Every battle, every war, every invasion. From now on, you decide the outcome. What's the matter, Mister President? Don't you trust yourself?

(Dear god was Moffat a pretentious hack. He should never be allowed within 50 feet of anything DW related again.)

MISSY: Doctor, listen to me. I know traps, traps are my flirting. This is a trap.

On top of this she ehm, kisses him FIVE times, her plan is to win him back, she tries to murder Clara in a jealous rage in that awful Dalek two parter. And she later tries to become a good guy so she can be with him.

It's not even just the romance however that Missy is ill fitting. It's EVERYTHING, which ties into my larger points that New Who was not a sequel, and that the guys who made had 0 respect for the characters.

She literally doesn't have a single, even superficial similarity with the Masters from classic who.

Hmm lets see.

Masters signature weapon, the TCE which shrinks people, she didn't have that.

The Masters signature power is his ability to hypnotise people. Missy NEVER uses this.

The Master is supposed to be charming, suave and able to twist people's minds, play on their weaknesses, or even their strengths. He is quite predatory and enjoys being able to make people trust, even love him and then discard them. He also has a habit of whipping up tensions wherever he goes and playing on any racial, religious or other prejudices for his own benefit and playing people against one another. Missy never does any of this. She's an annoying, camp, "I'M BANNANA! moron.

The Master's main aim is to conquer the galaxy. He claims that when he rules he can make things better, establish a new universal order, cure diseases, end wars, unite all species together under his rule. However deep down he is just a controlling sociopath and if he ever gained power he would abuse it. As time goes on he drops the facade that it's for a greater good, though he still believes he is creating a perfect order to the galaxy.

Missy at no point ever tries to gain power or take over anywhere. In fact in her first story she hands over an army of Cybermen to the Doctor without a failsafe and says she doesn't need it! She also never tries to take over anywhere in the Dalek story where she is just an annoying, camp moron. Whilst in her next appearance she has to get saved by the Doctor and is then just a sidekick (and still annoying "DUCTAH HOOOO") after that.

All of this is before we get to the way she messed up the Doctors relationship with the Master. In the original series, the Doctor and the Masters former friendship is mentioned in ONE story. The Sea Devils, where the Doctor says that he and the Master used to be friends, and that it is a shame he ended up like this. That's it!

From the start they are enemies and willing to kill each other. The Doctor has a moral code where he won't kill unless it is in self defense and sometimes that applies to the Master, but even then, he is willing to break it for the Master arguably more than others.

The Master at first does have a healthy respect for the Doctor and is happy for the Doctor to be a potential ally, but when it soon becomes apparent that the Doctor will not help him, the Master tries to eliminate him, and the more he fails, the more brutal it becomes until they eventually become archenemies.

They constantly try to kill each other, but are never able to because they are evenly matched. Neither are ever able to win, as the Master always escapes justice despite killing billions of innocent people, whilst at the same time the Doctor always stops him from taking over earth.

Later when the Master is pushed over the edge, he comes to blame the Doctor for all his woes and misfortune which leads to the fued intensifying even further.

Missy meanwhile is as the quotes show, in love with him, or at least attracted to him and desperate to win him back. Worse the Doctor now has affection for the Master!

Having the Doctor want to be friends with the Master at this stage after he has regularly killed scores of innocent people because he views other life forms as lesser than himself makes the Doctor into an apologist for the Daleks type of ideology.

See here.

From an awful Missy episode.


DOCTOR: She got us home from Mars.
BILL: She's a murderer.
DOCTOR: Enjoying your bacon sandwich?
BILL: Why?
DOCTOR: Because it had a mummy and a daddy. Go tell a pig about your moral high ground.

Here from a classic episode.


LEADER: It's survival, Doctor. Just as these primitives kill lesser species to protect themselves, so I kill them.
DOCTOR: That's hardly an argument.
LEADER: It's not supposed to be an argument. It's a statement!

It's certainly not unreasonable with this in mind to want New Who disconnected and another sequel that actually carries on the Masters story to take it's place.

It's not just the Master, the Doctor is as unfaithful, the Cybermen. The only ones who were reasonably consistent across both shows were the Daleks, but I have a feeling that is because Terry Nation, their creators estate owns the rights and would have been more pushy if they had tried to mess with them.

And all of this lets go back to the Tennant era because he was the most popular. Sigh, trying to recapture the Tennant era is what got us into this mess in the first place! We need to dump the Tennant era.

And I do find it funny that some posters have tried to make out that it's anti women to not want to go back to romance stories with the Doctor. (As that is somehow going back to the 90s when there were no women around in DW fandom?)

Imagine if this was reversed. Imagine if I kept saying about a character like Miss Marple that is designed to be played by older, more unconventional women.

"We can't cast a weird looking woman over 50. I wouldn't want to bang her, no guys would. In order to get people watching Miss Marple, lets bring in someone like Maggie Q and make her a guys forbidden fruit fantasy that young men will want to bone."

No way would that even be considered, so sorry I say the same should be true of the Doctor. Let's use him as a way to cast unconventional leading actors again and make him seem like a more dusty, professorial type. No more pound shop Angel style romances please.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Sorry but it seems that once again you seem to be avoiding what was in the story to make something in New Who fit.

No, I am trying to understand where you are seeing that Missy was in love with the Doctor, by asking you to literally give me an episode to watch so I can see it, and you are taking it as me arguing with you about it. I don't consider New Who a strict continuation so not every little thing to me needs to fit exactly with Classic Who. So I don't need to make the two fit perfectly. You are the one who seems to need New Who to be exactly the same as Classic Who.

On top of this she ehm, kisses him FIVE times, her plan is to win him back, she tries to murder Clara in a jealous rage in that awful Dalek two parter. And she later tries to become a good guy so she can be with him.

I guess I just don't nitpick every little thing as having deeper meaning. Missy being flirty in her speech doesn't mean to me that she is in love with the Doctor. She wants the Doctor's approval but I don't feel it is because of romantic feelings for him, it's because of their history. Honestly, I think you are reading too much into things lol

which ties into my larger points that New Who was not a sequel,

Like I said before - New Who was not a sequel, it is a reboot.

In the original series, the Doctor and the Masters former friendship is mentioned in ONE story. The Sea Devils, where the Doctor says that he and the Master used to be friends, and that it is a shame he ended up like this. That's it!

So? Doesn't that make it something interesting for the show to explore more of, since it wasn't done in the original?

Worse the Doctor now has affection for the Master!

When they re-introduced the Master, the Doctor believed that the Master was the only other living Time Lord. It's good writing that he would be conflicted about killing the only other one, when he believed he was the last for so long, and felt so much guilt for what he had done. We saw massive conflict in the Doctor - he sinks to almost using a gun before stopping himself. It's character development, internal struggle.

It's certainly not unreasonable with this in mind to want New Who disconnected and another sequel that actually carries on the Masters story to take it's place.

Except that lots of people actually like New Who excepting the last two seasons. I get that you want it and why you want it, and no, it's not unreasonable for you to want it, but not everyone feels that way. New Who is not perfect, but I feel like you want it to be exactly the same as Classic Who. And I still don't see Tennant and Smith as not unconventional looking...but each Doctor should be different, that's what makes regeneration cool. They can be a character that has been changing over hundreds of years to make each iteration unique, while still being the same Doctor. Otherwise, they might as well skip regeneration and just have voiceover at the beginning of the episode saying, "The role of the Doctor will now be played by..." What makes the Doctor the Doctor is not that he's a white haired grandfather but his moral code - the fact that he will help even his worst enemy because that's the kind of person he is. THAT is what they forgot when Chibnall took over.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Doesn't that make it something interesting for the show to explore more of, since it wasn't done in the original?

That's why I don't have a problem with the Timeless Child idea

 

[Buffy Summers]

Except that idea was shit and didn't make sense with other things that were done in New Who. 😀

This is what the Doctor is:

Jodie was never this Doctor.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

didn't make sense with other things that were done in New Who. 😀

The character was growing and changing. Having an arc. Need to strip down the hero to build them back up. The writers were stripping down.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Again, that's all well and good, but if you can't put two sentences together or act your way out of a paper bag, it's still garbage. Even if the idea was okay, the execution was garbage. Which is the difference to the rest of New Who, it was executed well. So you could disagree with the decisions they'd made but it wasn't unwatchable trash.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Oh.
My.
Word.
BUY BUY BUY

https://twitter.com/x/status/1428140303655989252

Let this man take it over. Seriously.

 

[NileQT87]

All I ask is it to feel like the best of and a continuation of this. Go back to making it for those who are willing to love it, rather than those who can't love it as it was.

Frankly, the BBC and the showrunners involved have been struggling for years just to put out what amounts to half an American season (or less--note that the '60s had 40ish half-hour episode seasons before it was cut to 26ish in the '70s-'80s, which is comparable to the 13-14 full episodes we used to get) with multiple gap years.

I'm well aware that RTD and Moffat were overworked, but that suggests to me that they did not have enough writers to fall back on. Moffat notably was running on empty coming up with ideas after getting all of his big ones out and RTD pretty much admits he didn't have a home life. Chibnall straight up has made everyone forget that it is still on.

It might mean having a larger writers' room and willingness to hire more than British citizens. Just getting somebody who can get an acceptable amount of high-quality episodes out means more than what nationality they are.

By that logic, Sydney Newman being Canadian and Waris Hussein being Indian would make them unacceptable, even though they made the very first episodes ever along with Verity Lambert in 1963.

If opening it up to non-British talent with a history of success in popular genre fiction means getting some proper sci-fi/fantasy and character-focused drama writers in the writing room that can complete enough good scripts in time and actually care about the show, go for it.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

So, the Doctor is/was essentially a shape changer, damned aliens, just when you get used to it he (?) changes
some folk here are of the opinion that includes gender that makes the sort of sense that is not.
My sense of humour guides me to think what woman could have been the second Dr. Who after William Hartnell .. .. ..
anyone agree to a reinvigorated Miss Marple?

That planet that Dr. Who comes from, when they talk they speak English but is that so we cam understand them? If so what is the proper language, and in the proper language was the word for male - female? If so then the Dr.Who has always been a lady and the last on is essentially a man.

And for my next brain teaser .. .. .. ..