Are Vampires Patriarchal?

[DeadlyDuo]

A lot of the vampire groups we see on the show are led by males. We some female vampires being co-leaders with a male but the male tends to be the more dominant of the pair. The only exception to this rule is Sunday. Harmony initially led but then her minions were quickly plotting to overthrow her whereas Sunday was well and truly in charge.

Even Darla seems to let Angelus take the lead of the Whirlwind despite her being his sire. Could this just be a clever tactic by female vampires? By pairing up with the alpha male of the group, they get to enjoy the trappings of being high up on the hierarchal tree without the risk of challengers trying to take them down which would be the case with the males. Given that males tend to outnumber females in the larger vampire groups (if there are any females present that is), having exclusive sexual access to a female would be a sign of dominance and status. This is what makes the Angelus/Dru/Spike dynamic in Season 2 interesting. Spike was the alpha vampire unable to defend his position when Angelus swept back in due to being confined to a wheelchair. Angelus took Dru as a bedwarmer (demonstrating his dominance over Spike by taking "Spike's girl") yet he does not have exclusive sexual access to her. She continues to sleep with Spike (Angelus refers to her as giving Spike "pity access") and displays public affection for him. Angelus doesn't seem to try and stop this (and in BB&B, Angelus seems reluctant to take on Dru over Xander) despite it potentially being seen as undermining his authority, It's possible that Spike still retains a high position within Angelus' Season 2 group because of Dru. Angelus doesn't want to challenge Dru over her behaviour (potentially because it could weaken his position within the group if the head female starts rejecting him) yet if Dru was sleeping with someone on the lowest branches of the group hierarchy, it would be embarrassing for Angelus as it shows that he has no control. By keeping Spike in a reasonably high position, it makes Dru's behaviour more "acceptable" and also potentially boosts Angelus' standing with the minions by his supposed "generous" behaviour of "sharing".

However, bringing Sunday back into this, could it all just be a matter of strength? Sunday leads her group without being challenged (and arguably she might be a more friendly alpha towards her underlings than vampires are normally though clearly calls the shots) whereas Harmony was challenged by Mort with the rest of her minions supporting the challenge wholeheartedly. Upon Spike's arrival in Season 2, he initially works for the anointed one before killing him and taking over and post-chip he seems to have no problem with Buffy leading the group (though it could also be argued that Buffy has the backing of the rest of the scoobies and Spike is at a disadvantage). Perhaps part of Spike's obsession with Buffy is a subconscious desire to be respected again? By the time Season 5 rolls around, Spike has been solo for nearly a year, he's got a chip in his brain that prevents him from being a "proper" vampire, he's persona non grata with the majority of the demon community and the mortal scoobies openly mock him without fear of reprisal. From being an alpha vampire (The Harsh Light of Day) to his current social position, that is quite far to fall.

Also coming back round to Drusilla and strength; in Lie to Me, we see Spike (the alpha male) deferring to Drusilla over Ford, going so far as to ask her "can I eat him now?". In BB&B, Angelus seems reluctant to fight her over Xander. In Becoming Part 2, she puts up a good fight against Spike and his victory was a result of her getting distracted by Acathla rather than him "winning" outright. If Drusilla is so formidable, why doesn't she lead solo like Sunday? Whilst it could be argued that her mental instability makes he incapable of leading sole (though she can lead as part of a pair which she does with Spike though acts more submissive to Angelus), it could also lead back to the original point that vampires are quite patriarchal and that male vampires tend to be the more respected leaders rather than females. Sunday's group are the anomaly and are possibly quite progressive by vampire standards. Likewise, Spike's partnership with Drusilla could be seen as progressive rather than the norm. Angelus takes on the more traditional "alpha male gets his pick of the females and she has to submit to him" role. The only times we ever see Darla or Drusilla rise against him is when Darla evicts him because of his soul (it makes him weak and thus a liability) and when Drusilla is protecting Xander (she's under a spell).

Thoughts?

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Firstly, I think the Whirlwind are kinda unique. They are old vampires from an old bloodline. Darla is a member of the Order of Aurelius, which has a lot of traditions and rules. So while the Whirlwind are renegades, they hail from the largest and oldest vampire order on the show. Most of other the vampires we see are just hoodlums. They are not part of any kind of vampire society.

Secondly, I think Darla and Drusilla rule by proxy. In the Yorkshire mineshaft, it is Angelus's job to put Spike in his place. In China, Darla is angry with Angelus for allowing Spike to out-do him. Why doesn't Darla go kill herself a slayer? Because she doesn't see it as her job. It is Angel's job to keep his spawn in check, so Darla can have a tidy household.

This is even more so with Spike and Drusilla. Spike does all the work, but Drusilla is the boss. When Angel comes back to them in S2, Drusilla finds herself in the position of being the sole woman in a family with two males competing for her favour, even if one of them is temporarily out of commission. Angel shares his time between trying to kill Buffy and sucking up to Dru, always in full view of Spike.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Secondly, I think Darla and Drusilla rule by proxy. In the Yorkshire mineshaft, it is Angelus's job to put Spike in his place. In China, Darla is angry with Angelus for allowing Spike to out-do him. Why doesn't Darla go kill herself a slayer? Because she doesn't see it as her job. It is Angel's job to keep his spawn in check, so Darla can have a tidy household.

So in other words, Darla wants all the trappings of being high up the hierarchal tree but none of the drawbacks. It's not her "job" to keep the lower ranking members in line, it's the alpha male's.

This is even more so with Spike and Drusilla. Spike does all the work, but Drusilla is the boss.

I disagree. Spike and Dru are a partnership. In the first half of Season 2, she's in a weakened state, then in the 2nd half, he's in a weakened state. Both look after the other and both are in charge. Spike may have deferred to Dru over Ford, but she listened to him when she was about to poke out Dalton's eyes.

When Angel comes back to them in S2, Drusilla finds herself in the position of being the sole woman in a family with two males competing for her favour, even if one of them is temporarily out of commission. Angel shares his time between trying to kill Buffy and sucking up to Dru, always in full view of Spike.

And yet Dru continues to sleep with Spike despite there being no benefit for her to do so since Angelus is now the alpha vampire and Spike "doesn't get out much anymore". Dru does what Angelus says, she's an underling not an equal.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

So in other words, Darla wants all the trappings of being high up the hierarchal tree but none of the drawbacks. It's not her "job" to keep the lower ranking members in line, it's the alpha male's.

Pretty much. When Angelus takes Darla away from the Master, he promises her a life of luxury and indulgence. From then on, it is his responsibility to provide that.

Darla doesn't like Drusilla or Spike. When Spike gets uppity, she leaves it to Angelus to put him in his place.

I disagree. Spike and Dru are a partnership. In the first half of Season 2, she's in a weakened state, then in the 2nd half, he's in a weakened state. Both look after the other and both are in charge. Spike may have deferred to Dru over Ford, but she listened to him when she was about to poke out Dalton's eyes.

They are partners, but I don't think Spike could tell Drusilla to do anything she wouldn't wanna do. And all of Spike's efforts are to please Dru. And at the end of S2, Spike displeases Dru and is unable to win her back with growerling or by force.

I've always assumed Spike's quest for the ring of Amara was his last ditch attempt to win Drusilla's love back by using the ring to kill Buffy, making up for his previous betrayal.

And yet Dru continues to sleep with Spike despite there being no benefit for her to do so since Angelus is now the alpha vampire and Spike "doesn't get out much anymore". Dru does what Angelus says, she's an underling not an equal.

Aren't you contradicting yourself? Angel wants to assert his dominance over Spike by taking Drusilla from him, but Drusilla defies him by continuing to sleep with Spike. And Angel always sucks up to Dru and showers her with gift and attention. The only time there is conflict between them is when Drusilla is under Amy's love spell and Angel backs down.

 

[white avenger]

I always got the feeling that vampire groups were set up in a way similar to wolves, with an alpha male leading the pack. The alpha doesn't have to be the oldest member, or even the smartest, it just has to be the strongest and most aggressive, which pretty much describes Angelus perfectly. He led by strength and domination. But, be that as it may, the image of a male vampire having his band of minions dates back at least as far as the original Dracula movie starring Bela Lugosi, and no doubt much further back in written fiction and folklore. Call it chauvinism if you care to, it was a man's world back then, and that's the way that they depicted it. Buffy was just pretty much carrying on the tradition, until Harmony and Sunday came alng.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Drusilla is a special case who acts like she is the sire of all of them whereas Darla was the actual sire from the line of The Master. Drusilla's usefulness is backed by her ESP and visions of what is happening and her ability to hold people in her thrall like Giles when they wanted to know how to activate Acathla and Kendra before killing her. It was a female vampire who was sent to the school to call out Buffy before bursting into flame so between this vampire and Sunday, it is likely the lines of control follow lines of leadership ability more than patriarchy - whoever is best at leading is the one who leads. Harmony almost got dusted by her own minions because she claimed to be a leader but was never successful at maintaining a chain of command..

Maybe we are seeing polyandry here. It used to be common in Tibet, Mongolia, Ceylon, Korea, China, Southern India, Malabar, Tasmania and among the Iroquois of North America but it existed in Europe during the Roman Empire and vampirism did exist in those times (as with Kakistos and The Master). Drusilla sleeps with whomever she pleases and has the right to terminate a relationship. We are given an impression that Drusilla is being fought over by Angelus and Spike whereas it may be that Angelus and Spike are trying to win the favour of their wife.

Of course, this is all subject to the reality that the vampire is to an extent responsible to her sire. Drusilla becomes more dangerous on Angel when she is directly sired by Darla for a second time because she is no longer in a line of descent from Angel - his sire is her sire and they are on an even basis after that.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

There are no alpha wolves. There is the mama and the papa wolf and all their children.

Dracula has his so-called brides. The three sisters who pounce upon Giles in the castle are straight from the source material.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Pretty much. When Angelus takes Darla away from the Master, he promises her a life of luxury and indulgence. From then on, it is his responsibility to provide that.

Darla doesn't like Drusilla or Spike. When Spike gets uppity, she leaves it to Angelus to put him in his place.

That's basically what I said in the original post. Darla enjoys the trappings of being high up the hierarchal tree, but she lets Angelus lead so she doesn't have to deal with the drawbacks. Leaders will always be challenged for control of the group therefore, by letting Angelus be the leader, Darla is avoiding any drawbacks and challenges for leadership.

Darla leaves it to Angelus (as leader) to put Spike in his place because if Spike were to turn nasty and fight back then Angelus would be the one most likely getting injured, not Darla. Therefore Darla gets to enjoy the perks of being close to the alpha male without having to suffer the consequences that being the leader brings.

They are partners, but I don't think Spike could tell Drusilla to do anything she wouldn't wanna do. And all of Spike's efforts are to please Dru. And at the end of S2, Spike displeases Dru and is unable to win her back with growerling or by force.

Not true. Spike DOES temporarily win Dru back off-screen but it doesn't last. In Lovers Walk, Spike and Dru break up because he caught her making out with a CHAOS demon. In THLOD, Harmony says that Dru left Spike for a FUNGUS demon. For Dru to leave Spike for someone else, she would have to be romantically involved with him in the first place for her to do so.

Also Spike stops Dru from attacking Giles when he's beating up Angelus and she does listen to him. Dru doesn't order Spike around, she stops him from killing Ford because she sensed an opportunity, plus Spike convinced her not to gouge out Dalton's eyes and give him a chance to rectify is mistake instead.

I've always assumed Spike's quest for the ring of Amara was his last ditch attempt to win Drusilla's love back by using the ring to kill Buffy, making up for his previous betrayal.

Whilst that would definitely be a Spike thing to do, I don't think that was the actual motivation in show.

Aren't you contradicting yourself? Angel wants to assert his dominance over Spike by taking Drusilla from him, but Drusilla defies him by continuing to sleep with Spike. And Angel always sucks up to Dru and showers her with gift and attention. The only time there is conflict between them is when Drusilla is under Amy's love spell and Angel backs down.

I can see why you would think that so I'll try to explain it better.

Typically alpha males get their pick of the females and to be the partner of the alpha male would give females privileges that they wouldn't get with a lower ranking male. Therefore being the alpha male's desired partner is beneficial to the female.

Spike was the alpha male and Dru was his partner before Angelus came in and knocked Spike off his perch because Spike was physically unable to defend his position. Angelus is the new alpha male and wants Dru, even if it is just to rub it in Spike's face that Angelus has usurped Spike's position and is now taking "Spike's girl". Dru is now a highly sought after commodity.

Logic would dictate that it is more beneficial for Dru to ditch Spike completely and give Angelus "exclusive access" if she wants to maintain her high position in the group. However Dru doesn't do that, she continues to sleep with Spike and show public displays of affection for him. Essentially what you now have is the sexual partner of the alpha male sleeping with a lower ranking male and the alpha male is doing nothing or is unable to stop it. This could be seen as undermining Angelus' authority as the alpha male of the group.

The question is why doesn't Angelus stop it? Angelus could quite easily kill Spike in his weakened condition which sends a message to the other underlings not to get above their station. I think the answer lies in that Angelus is wary of Dru. She's too unpredictable. If he tried to harm Spike, she could turn nasty on him which could also lead to the rest of the group turning on him. Given that the group was Spike and Dru's before Angelus took over, it's highly likely that the group's loyalty still mainly lies with Dru because she still maintains a high hierarchal position. Angelus backs down rather than fight her over Xander because he doesn't want an uprising. His power lies in the fact that Dru lets him be in power.

Given Dru's mental instability and her history with Angelus, it's possible that Dru is unaware of the power she has within the group. Spike was the one who was more the commander. Dru might advise him on a course of action but he is the one who gives the orders. Because of Dru, Spike is still in the hierarchy mix. Angelus can't push Spike to the worst position in the group because the alpha male's desired partner sleeping with the lowest ranking male would be more of an embarrassment than sleeping with another high ranking male. This also means that if Angelus were to hurt Dru then Spike might also command enough respect from the rest of the group to stage a rebellion against him and Spike is already itching for an opportunity to take Angelus down. Angelus doesn't want to give him ammunition, thus he allows Dru to continue sleeping with Spike unchallenged.

As for my comment about Dru being an underling to Angelus rather than an equal as she was with Spike, that still stands. Because of their history, Angelus has control over Dru. Though she might turn against him if she had sufficient reason to, Angelus can easily avoid such a scenario by keeping her placated such as showering her with "gifts and attention". Spike loves Dru and treats her that way, Angelus uses her and so she is nothing but a toy to him. Spike and Dru are shown listening to each other's advice because they're a partnership, Angelus doesn't listen to Dru, the only time he pays any attention to what she says is if she has a vision. because that benefits him. He still sent Dru to the magic shop to find out what Jenny was upto rather than go himself.

I always got the feeling that vampire groups were set up in a way similar to wolves, with an alpha male leading the pack. The alpha doesn't have to be the oldest member, or even the smartest, it just has to be the strongest and most aggressive, which pretty much describes Angelus perfectly. He led by strength and domination.

I would say vampires are structured more like monkeys or lion prides (given how felinesque they are). There is a load of males around, but the alpha rules the roost and gets to be the only one who mates with the females. If any of the other male monkeys try to do that they get swiftly put back in their place. In lion prides, generally there tends to be only one male lion, but sometimes there is more than one male (but only because the males are brothers).

Drusilla sleeps with whomever she pleases and has the right to terminate a relationship.

As far as we know, Drusilla has only slept with 3 people: Spike, Angelus and the Immortal ( though it could be suggested that women are under some sort of pheromone effect with the Immortal which is why he was able to have a threesome with Darla and Dru despite Darla not letting Angelus do that). Given how Darla and Dru act so blissful in that scene, there is a strong possibility that they were under the effect of something.

Also I doubt Angelus would let Drusilla have "the right to terminate a relationship" with him.

[QUOTE.Of course, this is all subject to the reality that the vampire is to an extent responsible to her sire. Drusilla becomes more dangerous on Angel when she is directly sired by Darla for a second time because she is no longer in a line of descent from Angel - his sire is her sire and they are on an even basis after that.
[/QUOTE]

Drusilla was never sired by Darla, Darla was the one sired by Drusilla.

The overall point is that, with the exception of Sunday, it's male vampire who tend to be leaders rather than females.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

@DeadlyDuo you are right, we have a sequence where the Master sires Darla, Darla sires Angelus, Angelus sires Drusilla and Drusilla sires Darla and because the siring chain is circular, no one is in a senior position as a result of the order in which they were sired. I still think this could be better understood as polyandry. No female appears to be obligated to follow anything the males have to say. The males always try to curry favour with the females, with the exception that Darla appears to have no use for Spike and vice versa. We don't see any conversation between Angelus and Drusilla when Angelus takes her away from crippled Spike but we don't see any reluctance on the part of Drusilla, so I assume Angelus is not ordering her around.

As we see with Harmony and Sunday, the position of a vampire depends on leadership ability (which Sunday has and Harmony does not). In this sense, vampire society is egalitarian in the same sense that you can have a chain of command where a male reports to a female. I don't see patriarchy here.

 

[white avenger]

The question is why doesn't Angelus stop it? Angelus could quite easily kill Spike in his weakened condition which sends a message to the other underlings not to get above their station.

Because Angelus IS Angelus. He would much rather humiliate and torture his victims, which would pretty much include anyone in the area too weak or intimidated to defend themselves. You can't say that he wasn't getting far more pleasure out of watching Spike suffer than he ever could have by simply dusting him.

I would say vampires are structured more like monkeys or lion prides (given how felinesque they are). There is a load of males around, but the alpha rules the roost and gets to be the only one who mates with the females

And, again, that pretty much describes Angelus. He obviously had Darla, and Dru would come running any time he called her. Spike was never anything more than a stand in for "Daddy,: as far as she was concerned.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

We don't see any conversation between Angelus and Drusilla when Angelus takes her away from crippled Spike but we don't see any reluctance on the part of Drusilla, so I assume Angelus is not ordering her around.

We see two occasions where Angelus separates Spike and Dru. The first is in Innocence when Angelus and Dru are going to the mall with the Judge. Dru sits on Spike's lap and kisses him before Angelus takes her hand and pulls her away. The second is at the end of IOHEFY where Dru invites Spike on the hunt and Angelus is the one that says no.

In my view, Angelus has trained Dru like a dog in the 20 years between siring her and her meeting Spike to obey his commands. So of course she's going to obey him regardless because she's being a good dog (it also explains the little dog noise she makes to Angel in both WML Part 2 and Reunion). It could also explain the "puppy dog eyes" look she gives Spike whenever he snaps at her. The only time we see she "turns" on Angelus is when she's under a spell and not in her right mind.

As we see with Harmony and Sunday, the position of a vampire depends on leadership ability (which Sunday has and Harmony does not). In this sense, vampire society is egalitarian in the same sense that you can have a chain of command where a male reports to a female. I don't see patriarchy here.

I'm talking in the general sense rather than specific examples. There will always be exceptions. Most of the vampire groups we see are led by males. The vampire whores are a good example where they are forced to prostitute themselves whilst their male counterparts collect the cash. Though we do see some vampires working solo, those in groups tend to have a male leader.

Sunday leads her group but seems more or less on friendly terms with them, kind of in the same way Buffy is with the scoobies. She's the leader and in charge but there's a friendliness there that doesn't quite stay within the leader/minions confine.

Harmony had her group but they were all recent recruits and Mort was planning to usurp her with the backing of the rest of the group. The idea of Harmony having minions is funny in-show because of how incompetent Harmony is. She has to use Spike's idea of kidnapping someone close to Buffy and using them as bait rather than coming up with an idea of her own, and she goes running to Spike for protection.

Over on Angel, Darla offers herself to that male vampire in exchange for siring her. Though it could be argued that if the transaction had gone ahead then Darla would be the one pulling the strings, it is the male vampire who would still be the figure head of that hypothetical group. Likewise with the Whirlwind, Darla might be pulling Angelus' strings but he is seen as the leader, not only to the rest of the group but also to those outside the group. Male vampires tend to be physically stronger than the females so although the females might put up a good fight, ultimately they have to find other ways to exert power over the males.

Sunday in the only female vampire we see in a group that includes males that is the outright leader. Of course it could all depend on when vampires were sired eg Darla and Dru were sired in a time where men basically ruled everything whereas Sunday was sired around the 80s (since the disappearances on campus started around that time) which was obviously a time where women had more of a say in things so that could affect the view on who should lead. However, we also don't know if there was in fact a male initially leading Sunday's group who was then killed which left Sunday in charge. If Sunday and the initial alpha male were partners and thus co-leaders, she would still command the respect of the group after the alpha-male's death.

Because Angelus IS Angelus. He would much rather humiliate and torture his victims, which would pretty much include anyone in the area too weak or intimidated to defend themselves. You can't say that he wasn't getting far more pleasure out of watching Spike suffer than he ever could have by simply dusting him.

Whilst that is very true and is probably Angelus' viewpoint in regards to Spike, the flipside is Dru continuing to sleep with Spike does undermine Angelus' alpha male position a little. Of course Angelus has other means of keeping the minions in line despite Dru's behaviour, but the fact still remains that the alpha's desired female is still sleeping with the former alpha who is now of a lower ranking than the current alpha. Angelus doesn't have "exclusive access" to Dru which Spike did have when he was the alpha.

And, again, that pretty much describes Angelus. He obviously had Darla, and Dru would come running any time he called her. Spike was never anything more than a stand in for "Daddy,: as far as she was concerned.

I disagree. Dru never ditches Spike even with Angelus on the scene. If Spike was just a "stand in" then Dru had no reason to carry on with him once Angelus was back, yet she continues to sleep with him. It seems to be a common misconception that Dru drops Spike like a stone once Angelus comes back into her life but that is categorically not true. Dru is sleeping with BOTH men as Angelus refers to her as giving Spike "pity access" (even though Dru sleeps with Spike by choice).

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Vampire society should be a corrupt parody of human society, and I thought the Whirlwind's relationships met that qualification. Young Vampires do seem to need a mentor, and Vampires seem to hunt best in packs of two to three. Of Harm's gang, the male vampire who was the biggest and strongest did seem to take over, which suggests there is some advantage to being or controlling a large male, and Harm was weak enough to fail to take Xander. And the first thing Harm did after rising was hook up with a powerful male, and the first thing Sandy did was to become a prostitute. So, my answer is, to an extent, that Vampire society is structured around power, and masculine power means more in violent society centered on hunting the most dangerous prey.

 

[white avenger]

If Spike was just a "stand in" then Dru had no reason to carry on with him once Angelus was back, yet she continues to sleep with him.

Though it was never mentioned in any of the episodes, I got the impression that, at least at first, wheelchair bound Spike was crippled in more than just his legs, which would be consistent with Angelus' statements that Dru was only paying attention to Spike out of pity, something that would obviously be repugnant to him. Basically, Dru might have been sharing Spike's bed, though that is as much a matter of opinion as his possible impotence, since I don't recall ever actually seeing them in bed during that time, but she wouldn't hesitate to go to Angelus whenever he wanted her.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Though it was never mentioned in any of the episodes, I got the impression that, at least at first, wheelchair bound Spike was crippled in more than just his legs, which would be consistent with Angelus' statements that Dru was only paying attention to Spike out of pity, something that would obviously be repugnant to him. Basically, Dru might have been sharing Spike's bed, though that is as much a matter of opinion as his possible impotence, since I don't recall ever actually seeing them in bed during that time, but she wouldn't hesitate to go to Angelus whenever he wanted her.

There are other ways for Spike to pleasure Dru without needing to use anything below his waist.

Again, if Angelus trained Dru like a dog to respond to his commands, then whenever he whistles she's going to run to him because that is what she's been taught to do. Given Spike's love for Drusilla, Angelus would enjoy demonstrating just how much control he has over her just to rub it in.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Not true. Spike DOES temporarily win Dru back off-screen but it doesn't last. In Lovers Walk, Spike and Dru break up because he caught her making out with a CHAOS demon. In THLOD, Harmony says that Dru left Spike for a FUNGUS demon. For Dru to leave Spike for someone else, she would have to be romantically involved with him in the first place for her to do so.

She doesn't really break up with him the first time around. She just treats him in a way that lets him now she is angry with him and flirts with other demons to force the confrontation where she tells him that maybe they should just be friends. I imagine something similar happened when Spike returned. She took him back, but as he hadn't really done anything to make up for his previous mistakes, she started poking him again, until he got so infuriated that he left again.

Spike explains to Joyce that he finds Dru's choice of partners particularly offensive, as they are horribly unattractive. It seems likely that Dru picks these demons, because she wants to hurt Spike as much as possible, not because she has a fetish for slime and antlers.

But however you look at it, getting dumped so quickly after coming back is clearly a failure for Spike. Their relationship is over, unless he finds a way to fix it. Getting forgiven for a few months at a time is no consolation for a loss of their closeness.

Whilst that would definitely be a Spike thing to do, I don't think that was the actual motivation in show.

It is the only thing that makes sense to me. Spike admits to Harmony that coming back to Sunnydale to hunt for the ring and kill Buffy is a risk to him. Would he do it just for petty revenge?

And if Spike did succeed in killing Buffy, why wouldn't he go back to Dru and tell her what he had done? If Spike managed to kill Buffy, I am sure that would more than make up for his earlier betrayal.

Logic would dictate that it is more beneficial for Dru to ditch Spike completely and give Angelus "exclusive access" if she wants to maintain her high position in the group. However Dru doesn't do that, she continues to sleep with Spike and show public displays of affection for him. Essentially what you now have is the sexual partner of the alpha male sleeping with a lower ranking male and the alpha male is doing nothing or is unable to stop it. This could be seen as undermining Angelus' authority as the alpha male of the group.

No, it would be stupid for Drusilla to commit to Angel fully. The moment she ditches Spike, she has no leverage. Angel pampers Drusilla, because doing so hurts Spike. If Drusilla broke it off with Spike, then that would stop.

What you're saying would only make sense if Drusilla had competition, but she doesn't. Angel's interest is in causing Spike pain, and the best way to do that is to flirt with Dru in front of him.

I think the answer lies in that Angelus is wary of Dru. She's too unpredictable. If he tried to harm Spike, she could turn nasty on him which could also lead to the rest of the group turning on him.

Exactly. Neither Dru nor Darla will allow themselves to be pushed around by their men. Just because they avoid confrontation, doesn't mean they are afraid or incapable if push comes to shove.

Given Dru's mental instability and her history with Angelus, it's possible that Dru is unaware of the power she has within the group.

She is very aware. She talks about it in "Passion."

Because of their history, Angelus has control over Dru. Though she might turn against him if she had sufficient reason to, Angelus can easily avoid such a scenario by keeping her placated such as showering her with "gifts and attention".

The fact that Angel has to placate Dru demonstrates that he has very little control over her. He has control as long as Drusilla is happy. Conditional control isn't really control.

The S2 dynamic between the Whirlwind trio benefits Drusilla the most. Before Drusilla sired Spike, it was the other way around. Angelus could ignore Drusilla while Darla was with them and amuse himself with her whenever Darla went back to the master. Now it is Drusilla who has two men she can move between and pit against each other, and while Angelus seems to have been faithful to Darla while she was present, Drusilla exploits her position much more effectively.

It would be interesting to see how things would have changed if Spike revealed to the group that he had healed. It could have made Drusilla even more powerful, as Angel would have had to strive harder to placate her, having to compete with a healthy Spike.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I believe Angel showed that Vampires have a natural link to their sires, but it is by no means absolute.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

She doesn't really break up with him the first time around. She just treats him in a way that lets him now she is angry with him and flirts with other demons to force the confrontation where she tells him that maybe they should just be friends. I imagine something similar happened when Spike returned. She took him back, but as he hadn't really done anything to make up for his previous mistakes, she started poking him again, until he got so infuriated that he left again.

Spike explains to Joyce that he finds Dru's choice of partners particularly offensive, as they are horribly unattractive. It seems likely that Dru picks these demons, because she wants to hurt Spike as much as possible, not because she has a fetish for slime and antlers.

But however you look at it, getting dumped so quickly after coming back is clearly a failure for Spike. Their relationship is over, unless he finds a way to fix it. Getting forgiven for a few months at a time is no consolation for a loss of their closeness.

Dru does break up with him. She calls his bluff after he said "I'm not putting up with this". She says fine, he says fine, then she says they could still be friends. Spike admits he thought they were going to make up.

After the fight in the magic shop, Spike says that if he wants Dru back he has to be the man he used to be, the man she loved. Spike goes to win her back, is temporarily successful but then it all falls apart again.

Spike also says that Dru was doing it just to hurt him, though that could be denial on his part, not wanting to accept that the relationship was breaking down. It would be easier for him to accept that she was doing it as a form of punishment rather than she didn't love him anymore. He's upset that she didn't kill him "some little sign that she cared" and he says how "she was just different".

It all sounds like Drusilla had emotionally checked out of the relationship whilst Spike wanted to carry on like nothing had happened. She briefly gives him another shot but it doesn't work out.

It is the only thing that makes sense to me. Spike admits to Harmony that coming back to Sunnydale to hunt for the ring and kill Buffy is a risk to him. Would he do it just for petty revenge?

And if Spike did succeed in killing Buffy, why wouldn't he go back to Dru and tell her what he had done? If Spike managed to kill Buffy, I am sure that would more than make up for his earlier betrayal.

True. I agree with you that would be a Spike thing to do, however at no point does Spike mention that Drusilla is his motivation for finding the gem and killing Buffy.

No, it would be stupid for Drusilla to commit to Angel fully. The moment she ditches Spike, she has no leverage. Angel pampers Drusilla, because doing so hurts Spike. If Drusilla broke it off with Spike, then that would stop.

What you're saying would only make sense if Drusilla had competition, but she doesn't. Angel's interest is in causing Spike pain, and the best way to do that is to flirt with Dru in front of him.

I disagree. The fact that Spike is present is enough for Angelus to keep pampering Dru. If Dru ditched Spike completely, Angelus would take every opportunity to rub it in Spike's face. By continuing to sleep with Spike, it lets Spike know that he hasn't lost Dru completely to Angelus.

Exactly. Neither Dru nor Darla will allow themselves to be pushed around by their men. Just because they avoid confrontation, doesn't mean they are afraid or incapable if push comes to shove.

I think there's a saying, can't remember the exact wording but it goes something along the lines of "A man may be the head, but a woman is the neck, and she controls which way the head turns".

Dru is a very capable fighter. The point isn't whether or not a female vampire can hold her own in a fight, it's about the fact that we see a lot of male leaders despite the fact that the females are equally as capable. It could just be a clever ploy on the females' part, pull the alpha male's strings but let him bear the brunt of any challenges for leadership, or it could be a case that male leaders tend to be more respected than female leaders by other vampires outside of the nest group. The point is that not a lot of females are taking up the leadership position outright with the exception of Sunday.

Sunday was a competent leader and commanded respect from her underlings, Harmony didn't and her group were quickly planning to overthrow her and install Mort as leader instead.

She is very aware. She talks about it in "Passion."

Dru is aware that Spike and Angelus are fighting over her, that doesn't mean she knows why specifically. If Angelus trained her to respond to him in such a way, and note that she only responds in that way to Angelus and not Angel, then she's not going to know why Spike is getting so worked up about it because as far as she's concerned she's just doing what she's meant to. Of course she's enjoying being the centre of attention because it makes her feel special (and there's a possibility that she might have a princess/knight kind of fantasy going on which the Angelus/Spike conflict would play into). When Spike responds "No we weren't" to Dru telling Angelus "we were worried", Dru apologises for him , saying that he's a bit "testy" because he "doesn't get out much anymore". She seems unaware that her "relationship" with Angelus is hurting Spike.

The fact that Angel has to placate Dru demonstrates that he has very little control over her. He has control as long as Drusilla is happy. Conditional control isn't really control.

And the same goes for every abuser and their victim. Conditional control is still control so long as the conditions are met. Angelus isn't going to let Dru know that she can get the best of him because once she does then he's lost control of her. It's probably why he chose not to fight her over Xander, he "allowed" her to do what she wanted. There is also the fact that controlling Dru enables an element of control over Spike. Spike would never abandon her which means he has to play nice if he wants to stay with her.

The S2 dynamic between the Whirlwind trio benefits Drusilla the most. Before Drusilla sired Spike, it was the other way around. Angelus could ignore Drusilla while Darla was with them and amuse himself with her whenever Darla went back to the master. Now it is Drusilla who has two men she can move between and pit against each other, and while Angelus seems to have been faithful to Darla while she was present, Drusilla exploits her position much more effectively.

It would be interesting to see how things would have changed if Spike revealed to the group that he had healed. It could have made Drusilla even more powerful, as Angel would have had to strive harder to placate her, having to compete with a healthy Spike.

In my view, Dru isn't being "a big ho" in regards to Angelus, she's just doing what she's been trained to do. A healed Spike would hardly be more than a minor threat to Angelus' control over Dru because his control over her is still strong. The whole reason Spike allied with Buffy was because he couldn't "fight them both alone". Angelus has too much control and influence over Dru, Spike couldn't just convince her to leave Angelus, he had to knock her unconscious and physically carry her away.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

True. I agree with you that would be a Spike thing to do, however at no point does Spike mention that Drusilla is his motivation for finding the gem and killing Buffy.

It is the only thing that makes sense to me. Harmony says that Drusilla is all he talks about. If he is constantly talking about Drusilla, while trying to fix the mistake that made Drusilla lose respect for him, then it is a pretty good bet that he trying to win Drusilla back.

I disagree. The fact that Spike is present is enough for Angelus to keep pampering Dru. If Dru ditched Spike completely, Angelus would take every opportunity to rub it in Spike's face. By continuing to sleep with Spike, it lets Spike know that he hasn't lost Dru completely to Angelus.

Drusilla is Spike's only link to the Whirlwind. If she cut him off and made it clear that she didn't want anything to do with him, Spike would be either try to kill Angel or he would leave, like he did after Drusilla got with the fungus and chaos demons. If that had happened, Drusilla would have no hold over Angel anymore.

If Angelus trained her to respond to him in such a way, and note that she only responds in that way to Angelus and not Angel, then she's not going to know why Spike is getting so worked up about it because as far as she's concerned she's just doing what she's meant to.

There is absolutely no evidence that Drusilla has been trained in any way, nor do I even understand what being trained like a dog is supposed to mean. The fact that Drusilla can distinguish between Angel with and without a soul suggests that she is not trained. Her still being with Spike also clearly demonstrates that she does as she pleases.

And the same goes for every abuser and their victim.

But there is no abuse. Angel treats Drusilla like a princess every single scene. Drusilla is perfectly happy to have him there.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Drusilla is Spike's only link to the Whirlwind. If she cut him off and made it clear that she didn't want anything to do with him, Spike would be either try to kill Angel or he would leave, like he did after Drusilla got with the fungus and chaos demons. If that had happened, Drusilla would have no hold over Angel anymore.

In Season 2, Spike would not leave without Drusilla. That's practically the whole reason he allied with Buffy, to get Drusilla away from Angelus. Spike didn't have much choice but to leave after Dru broke up with him. If he thought there was still a chance of the two of them being together, he would stay.

Angelus uses Dru as a bedwarmer whenever Darla isn't around, he'd still have use for her. Spike won't leave because he knows Angelus is just using Dru.

There is absolutely no evidence that Drusilla has been trained in any way, nor do I even understand what being trained like a dog is supposed to mean. The fact that Drusilla can distinguish between Angel with and without a soul suggests that she is not trained. Her still being with Spike also clearly demonstrates that she does as she pleases.

Angel and Angelus are essentially two people stuck in one body. Dru hates Angel yet rolls over for Angelus. She recognises her "master" even though there is another man wearing his face (Angel) hence why she has a positive reaction to Angelus and a negative one to Angel despite them looking identical. She also makes the little dog noises to Angel which she doesn't do to Spike. She's with Spike out of choice hence why she continues to sleep with him but she also responds to Angelus in the way she was taught to. She's unaware of how much it is hurting Spike because a far as she's concerned, she's only doing what she's meant to and responding to Angelus' commands.

Also consider Spike's reaction to the whole thing. He doesn't blame Dru. It's not like he's blind to her faults because he calls her out on the chaos demon, yet he lays the blame 100% at Angel's door. That suggests there is an underlying issue with the Angelus/Dru dynamic that isn't just a case of "Dru cheats on Spike with Angel because she's a big ho".

Also Angelus drove Drusilla insane then sired her because death is "merciful" and he wanted her torment to last forever. Do you honestly think he wouldn't then train the once "chaste and pure" Drusilla to be his own personal whore? It would be the "finishing touches" to his "masterpiece".

Whilst there is nothing in-show that outright states this is the case, there is nothing in-show to disprove it either. It's my own theory that I've come up with that fits with Drusilla's behaviour in Season 2 of both Buffy and Angel.

Likewise, there's no evidence in-show that states that Buffy was on her period during School Hard. It can be inferred though by the fact she had a tampon in her bag plus Spike saying he smelt the blood of a "nice ripe girl". That's not even mentioning whether or not Giles was able to use the toilet whilst Spike was chained up in the bathroom in Season 4. Did he move Spike out of the bathroom every time he wanted to use the toilet, or did he just tell Spike to close his eyes whilst he relieved himself? A telly had been moved into the bathroom for Spike which suggests Spike was being kept in there out of the way. I know those might seem like two random examples but I'm using them to point out that although there is nothing to "prove" that Buffy was on her period or that Giles was using the toilet whilst Spike was prisoner in the bathroom, there is nothing saying that isn't the case. We don't see any of the characters using the toilet or saying they're going to but natural bodily function says they're using the toilet at some point even though there is no "evidence" to prove it.

But there is no abuse. Angel treats Drusilla like a princess every single scene. Drusilla is perfectly happy to have him there.

The whole Angelus/Drusilla relationship is built on abuse. He's exploiting her. He doesn't love her, he's using her. Abusers, particularly sexual abusers, are renowned for treating their victims nicely, it's what allows the abuse to continue.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I've never connected Spike calling Buffy a "ripe girl" to the tampon. I really like that. It is fitting that it is so quickly after "Prophecy Girl," as that is the episode when Buffy comes-of-age, and though she would have matured sexually before that, they use a lot of blood imagery.

Whore is more than a descriptive word for a woman that is promiscuous. It makes sense for Buffy to judge Drusilla's morals like that. But Drusilla does not view herself as a whore, nor do Angel treat her like one. The power relation is too much in Drusilla's favour. She can pick and choose between her two men and play them against each other.

For me, Drusilla is much more interesting if you assume she does everything she does because she really wants to. Unlike other vampires (Angel and Penn), Drusilla loses her family while she is still human and capable of feeling the full pain of their loss, which is why the Whirlwind matters to her, because it is the closest equivalent to a human family she can have as a vampire. Spike wants to be alone with Drusilla, because he died while hurting because his crush didn't love him back.