Are you ready to be strong?

[bespangeled]

It would be the fault of the person killing the girl simply because she is 'demonic', it's really that simple. How is Buffy responsible for another person's ignorance?

Now if the girl was to suddenly go around abusing her power and slaying people then I could see your point and Buffy would share some of that responsibility.

Wait - I kept reading about how hard it would be to fit in when you suddenly become a slayer. If that has anything to do with Buffy's spell, then these women are equally affected. I kinda have a problem with the - too bad for them but Buffy had no effect view. Being given unwanted and unexplained powers can be an inconvenience for some, and it can also be a death sentence for others. 

They were not the same societal norms. They were, as you put it, moral absolutes.

Chris Gowan in "Moral Relativism" states that "the truth of 'moral judgements' is not universal but is instead relative to the values of a group of people." it was these moral absolutes that precipitated the Salem witch trials. It's why metaethical moral relativism states that there are no absolutes. What they called a moral absolute then, we look at, scoff and call a 'societal norm' today.

They weren't absolutes - witch burnings were cultural norms. Witness the fact that, again, it was women who were killed and mostly old women. There's a huge difference between moral absolutes and cultural norms. I have moral absolutes - things which I will not tolerate regardless of which culture I trample on. They have cultural norms.

Example - female circumcision. To the family it's a cultural norm, one that helps to insure marriage back into the society. My belief that this is evil is a moral absolute. Now where judgements and cultures meet, there is the critical place.

What Buffy did was cut across both absolutes and norms. For the potential in Sunnydale that makes sense, and they had a say in it but for those suddenly hit by the spell with no warning and no instructions there is no sense to be made. Just danger. 

But there is no difference here. Buffy is saving the world and therefore the lives of everybody in that world- that is her 'own purpose'- to save the lives of all those girls that are inadvertantly transformed. It's not like Buffy's being selfish here, she's simply making a tough call. Without the 'violation' then they have no life to choose with as far as I can see.



She transforms them rather than having their lives ended. It's a violation but the alternative to what we are shown is certain death.

And I don't agree with this whole 'without the spell the amulet would've been enough on its own' theory. We don't even know HOW the amulet was activated but we do know that it wasn't instantaneous, it took a lot of time to work its magic.
Perhaps it needed for Spike to be in some sort of life or death struggle- the point is we don't know anything apart from what we are shown, and what we are shown its far from conclusive to say 'well turns out that Willow's spell wasn't needed after all.'
If Spike had stood alone in the Hellmouth with just Buffy and Faith at his side then all three of them would've been overrrun and killed within seconds.

If all three had loaded up on grenades then the spell and the amulet wouldn't have been needed. Sorry but I really had to say that.

But I do believe that if Willow could cast a spell that awakened every potential in the world, she could have also limited the spell to CA. 

For me, this whole argument boils down to the Slayers now having the choice to fight or not.

Before this, Buffy, Faith, Kendra and every other Slayer had no choice. They had no lives, no freedom, no will of their own. They got the Calling and that was it, until the day they died.

Not so for these girls.

Like @thetopher said, no one knew what the amulet would do. All they knew was they they had to go into the Hellmouth and wait - and Buffy already knew what was waiting for them when they went in there. They needed competent fighters to hold the uber vamps back until the amulet kicked in. So she offered them the choice - become Slayers and fight or become Slayers and don't fight. Every girl who went into the Hellmouth chose to go into the Hellmouth. Every one of those 500 Slayers in squads chose to be in those squads. Those 1,300 girls living out their lives chose to live out their lives.

Yes, I think Buffy taking the decision out of the hands of the, what, 1,750 girls who didn't get the opportunity to vote is a violation of their right and their autonomy, but Buffy isn't forcing them to fight like she was forced to fight, like Faith was forced to fight, like Kendra was forced to fight. She's not holding the argument of 'if you don't fight, people will die, the world will end, you have a duty to fulfill, it is your destiny' over their heads. Shes' allowing them the opportunity to decide for themselves, a decision she never got to make.

She gave them the power, yes, but it's up to them if they want to use it or not, and she's happy to let them live their lives in peace.

I might not remember Welcome To The Hellmouth but it seems to me that Buffy refused to fight, until Willow was in trouble. Then she chose to fight - choice being the operative sentiment. There is no way possible to force a slayer to fight. What those three have is watchers and instructors to explain the mythos and show them how and what to fight. 

Well the message I got from it was that in general people would prefer improved physical strength and a chance of survival than being stabbed repeatedly by bringers, eaten and brutalised by uber vamps or entered by the original evil. Also that Buffy and the scoobies will always be there when things get bad trying to make things a bit better. It's a positive message.

React local to local disasters - exactly what use is there for the 1600 awakened slayers too far away to have anything to do with this?

 

[The Bronze]

React local to local disasters - exactly what use is there for the 1600 awakened slayers to far away to have anything to do with this?

Well I'm not convinced there was an option to put a radius around the spell. Seemed like an all or nothing kind of deal. Assuming it all went wrong in the hellmouth though then 1600 slayers might have been able to save the world as a plan b.

 

[bespangeled]

Well I'm not convinced there was an option to put a radius around the spell. Seemed like an all or nothing kind of deal. Assuming it all went wrong in the hellmouth though then 1600 slayers might have been able to save the world as a plan b.

It does make the decision easier if you eliminate options. And 1600 young girls with no idea what the hell was going on probably would not unite to save the world.

Besides which, plan b was to have about 4 people set up a critical second front about 100 miles away.🙄

 

[Silverspike]

Lets face it, the plot had holes big enough to drive a tank through. Imo not one of Whedon's finest ideas.

 

[Taake]

Lets face it, the plot had holes big enough to drive a tank through. Imo not one of Whedon's finest ideas.

Yeah, I get that they wanted to end on some kind of positive "Buffy shares her power" note, but forgot to limit it to only the Potentials giving their consent.

Haha, imagine Buffy season one with a Buffy burden by the troubles of Slayerhood and then suddenly in comes Amber, real Slayer for arguments sake, and tells her "Oh yeah, my bad... I totally thrust this role upon you without asking you because I was like, totally in a jam and I didn't want to be alone anymore, carrying this terrible burden so... like... you're welcome! You're strong now. Aren't you happy? You didn't want a normal life with school, friends and a job anyway... right? You're like a superhero now, that's so much better! Right? Right?"

Do we really think that Buffy would've embraced her and gone, gee thanks Amber. I am ready to be strong now. Too bad you forgot to ask "Do you want to be strong?" but whatevs, normal lives are for suckers. Let me tell my mom this was your idea to do this to me, I bet she'll want to hug you too!

 

[thetopher]

Haha, imagine Buffy season one with a Buffy burden by the troubles of Slayerhood and then suddenly in comes Amber, real Slayer for arguments sake, and tells her "Oh yeah, my bad... I totally thrust this role upon you without asking you because I was like, totally in a jam and I didn't want to be alone anymore, carrying this terrible burden so... like... you're welcome! You're strong now. Aren't you happy? You didn't want a normal life with school, friends and a job anyway... right? You're like a superhero now, that's so much better! Right? Right?"

Do we really think that Buffy would've embraced her and gone, gee thanks Amber. I am ready to be strong now. Too bad you forgot to ask "Do you want to be strong?" but whatevs, normal lives are for suckers. Let me tell my mom this was your idea to do this to me, I bet she'll want to hug you too!

I guess what would'e happened is that S1 Buffy would've been able to choose for herself what to do with her life. She could've left the Hellmouth and gotten on with her life of carefree high school-ness of boys, shoes, fashion, etc.- a relatively angst-free existance compared to what actually happened to her.

And for every girl like Buffy there would be a girl like Kendra or Faith to take her place, somebody who chooses to be the slayer for the sake of duty or fun or a sense of purpose or whatever.
They choose their lot in life, just like S1 Buffy was unable to do- if Buffy wasn't willing to be the slayer then the world ends- that's a huge burden for one girl to have, and now its no longer there. 

If all three had loaded up on grenades then the spell and the amulet wouldn't have been needed. Sorry but I really had to say that

Well if we look at it that way then why didn't Buffy just get Riley to call in an airstrike on the Hellmouth? Then she and her friends can go to the beach and chill with some tunes and mohito's. 😉
A little anti-climactic though, as is world-savage via suicide bomber.

 

[The Bronze]

Let me tell my mom this was your idea to do this to me, I bet she'll want to hug you too!

Do you remember the first potential we saw? Think she was in Italy, maybe a punky look. The one that was jumped and stabbed repeatedly in an ally. Do you reckon her parents might have hugged someone if they gave her the ability to defend herself and survive in time?

I might be meshing two victims together in mind, it's been a while since I've seen Season 7. Apparently the first victim was in Istanbul. She was pushed off a roof and then stabbed. I suspect she and her parents would have been glad of the ability to fight back as well.

 

[EVIL UU]

I suspect she and her parents would have been glad of the ability to fight back as well.

And what if she wouldn't have been? I can imagine a situation in which a potential because of her religious ethical or philosophical beliefs chooses death over activation. What then?

 

[The Bronze]

And what if she wouldn't have been? I can imagine a situation in which a potential because of her religious ethical or philosophical beliefs chooses death over activation. What then?

Well I guess that would mean she's genuinely unlucky twice and a victim all round. I suppose she could simply not fight back even after activation. 
I'm not sure I could ever weigh one persons death preference favourably over what I imagine is the vast majority of the population preference for living.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Do you remember the first potential we saw? Think she was in Italy, maybe a punky look. The one that was jumped and stabbed repeatedly in an ally. Do you reckon her parents might have hugged someone if they gave her the ability to defend herself and survive in time?

Danger, potential harm and death are possibilities that we all face anyway every day we leave our homes. Same with slayers. Slayers can live just as short of lives, especially in their line of work. Being a slayer is no guarantee your parents will be spared the pain of watching you die.

 

[Silverspike]

Being a Slayer usually seems to mean you'll have a shorter life span ending with a violent death. So a bigger risk then your average person.

 

[The Bronze]

Danger, potential harm and death are possibilities that we all face anyway every day we leave our homes. Same with slayers. Slayers can live just as short of lives, especially in their line of work. Being a slayer is no guarantee your parents will be spared the pain of watching you die.

Absolutely. But we're not all being actively hunted. The Potentials were and in this situation becoming activated increased their odds of survival significantly. Not to mention increasing everyone else's odds of survival in the imminent apocalypse, which again is not something we're normally up against.

 

[gite63]

Sometimes you are presented with a variety of unpleasant options and you have to pick the least bad amongst them with the best of intentions. This is what Buffy always does.

Since they didn't have any idea how the amulet would work, it was the right decision at the moment, because the end of the world seemed unavoidable. But "share the power" wasn't a positive action eventually. I don't blame Buffy, she did what had to be done, but she and Willow shouldn't be so proud of having "shared the power!". Nor the writers.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I hear you @The Bronze. I'm not sure if you understand me completely, and I'm not sure I can articulate myself well enough either. I tried to last post but I couldn't catch the subtler feelings I wanted to communicate. There is more there I can't express.

And also some of us are thinking about the issue of empowerment more abstractly, less concretely. Given the circumstances by the end of the show, sure being a slayer improves survival chances and helped defeat The First (the potentials in Sunnydale anyway) but, back to the op, is that empowerment, or no? I don't think being given a life path (like a slayers especially) without my choice is empowerment. I think that's a poor choice of words even if you think being a slayer would be all fun. You said that it would help you from dying etc. but being a slayer, if anything, is probably a short hard road that probably leads to early death. Yes, you can defend yourself from harm, but now the responsibility of being a slayer throws you directly in harms way everyday, because that is the duty of the calling. And once a hero, the responsibility is a heavy burden. You can't do and be what other people who are not can. You have to make hard choices without easy answers and you have to live with the stress of it all and the conscience and the deadening of your emotions and feelings and so much more I don't have the time to elaborate. I'm sure you know what I mean. In the abstract at least, wouldn't you agree?

 

[EVIL UU]

Well I guess that would mean she's genuinely unlucky twice and a victim all round. I suppose she could simply not fight back even after activation. I'm not sure I could ever weigh one persons death preference favourably over what I imagine is the vast majority of the population preference for living.

So basically...f@#$ 'em? So much for empowerment, huh? You know, I strongly support Willow's spell - it's the right thing to do but come on, it's nowhere near righteous or just.

Being a Slayer usually seems to mean you'll have a shorter life span ending with a violent death. So a bigger risk then your average person.

This. It's a trade-off. Activation improves a short term chance of survival against the bringers but in the long term being a slayer drastically shortens the lifespan among other issues.

 

[The Bronze]

So basically...f@#$ 'em? So much for empowerment, huh? You know, I strongly support Willow's spell - it's the right thing to do but come on, it's nowhere near righteous or just.

Well I don't have your way with words, so that wouldn't be my phrasing, but pretty much yes. I mean compared with the alternative of throwing the rest of the world under the bus because a few people would choose death over activation seems much less righteous and just to me. If you've only got limited options and no perfect solution, doesn't that make one of those options righteous by comparison? It's a bit of a murky philosophy.

@AnthonyCordova I definitely get where you're coming from. It's not like I can't see the various issues that suddenly becoming a slayer would throw up. I wouldn't be in favour of Buffy and Willow waking up one day and casting the spell just because they can either. I'm just looking at it from within the parameters set out in front of us. My take on it being empowering is that it buys the potentials more time and a shot at life. The First didn't look like it was hanging around in it's plans. The Watchers council were wiped out, potentials were being killed everywhere and that army was pretty sizeable. I think we were looking at a weeks to months kind of timescale for The First going global, who knows what kind of power it would have gained with each victory. So giving these potentials a shot at a future measured in years rather than months I think is empowering. I know you haven't read the comics yet but it's not a miserable existence for every newly activated potential forever more. 

Being a Slayer usually seems to mean you'll have a shorter life span ending with a violent death. So a bigger risk then your average person.

Just a thought but being The Slayer certainly fits with this description. I'm not sure we're far enough along to say that it's the same being a slayer. Maybe a fair chunk of the new slayers will live longer healthier lives and bring up their sides averages compared to us regular folk?

 

[Fuffy Baith]

You would do the job because you have a conscience and you would feel obliged to do it (save people), but you would resent it.

I've never dreamed of being in the police or being a fire fighter, or work with the Red Cross, for instance. And I don't. Like most of us. And there are plenty of people in need in this world, that's sure. If I had superpowers, though, I would feel that I had to help people, even if I didn't want to do it.

That's a good point. I think if I was given Buffy's powers, I would resent them or making me feel like I'm obligated to help people and do something good with it. I would love the powers but not the responsibility, therefore I think that it is wrong to force that on people, even if the capacity or them to help fight and save the world is there. I can say that for me, honestly I would probably use my powers for personal gain. Does that make me a bad person, probably, but it also means that just cause you can give the power to every potential, doesn't mean that they deserve it.

 

[Silverspike]

As I've said before Joss could have come up with a much better story If he truly wanted to go down the whole empowerment road. Having free will and an input into what happens to your own body should have been at the top of his list, but sadly It wasn't.

Instead Whedon chose to box Buffy into a corner where she had a make the best out of an almost no win scenario. It needn't have been that way.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Having free will and an input into what happens to your own body should have been at the top of his list, but sadly It wasn't.

Exactly. And in my opinion, the moral of that story counteracts what came before.

 

[bespangeled]

People facing dangers can make the wrong decision for the right reason - witness Dana, and Connor.