Are you ready to be strong?

[Ethan Reigns]

This story goes back to an uncomfortable time in the US that Joss would have lived through and that is the draft for the Viet Nam war. America was not under attack and had not been attacked since WWII when the Japanese attempted to take the Aleutian Islands (and Alaska was not an American state at the time). The draft was dropped at the end of 1972 and the last draftees were free by the beginning of 1975. Draftees were slaves, but if America had been under attack, they would have been necessary.

In Buffy, the situation was different. The Bringers were worldwide including in the US. The power behind them was the First, a power that could manifest once enough people had been killed and would enter into every man, woman and child all over the world. Under these conditions, the draft was a necessary evil to stave off a greater evil. and the only choice was whether to be killed by bringers (who rarely seemed to fail in their mission) in the near future or obtain the means to survive until the apocalypse and possibly prevent it. In the face of this threat, the feminist concept of "empowerment" seems a little irrelevant. If we think in terms of representative democracy, you had a parliament of 30 girls who unanimously decided to go along with the idea. How many bills pass congress or parliament with unanimous support? I doubt any potential who was being hunted would turn down the offer of getting sufficient additional power to survive. The potentials who were not in Sunnydale were not in the war and never had to fight it, so it's not as if the decision added to the danger in their lives. They were like reservists who train with the military in the event that an increase in military strength was needed but stayed at home until they were activated, an event that never happened.

All of the changed bought about by the spell were positive - greater strength, faster recovery from injuries and improved ability to defend themselves and the attitude (as seen in the montage from around the world) of enough confidence to right wrongs.

 

[white avenger]

It's possible that Buffy took Giles at his literal word when he told her that there were now "only a handful" of Potentials left in the world. Yes, I know, compared to the world's total population, a few hundred, or even a few thousand IS only a handful, but the term "handful" usually conjures up an image of no more than a couple of dozen. MAYBE that's why Buffy did what she did, and, when she referred to "every girl in the world," she was actually envisioning the Potentials present in Sunnydale and just a few more who hadn't been found as yet. That would seem to be the case when she said, "Now it's your turn to make a choice..." As far as she knew, she was addressing almost all of the Potentials left alive in the world. (As for why Giles didn't give her a more realistic version of just how many he had meant by "handful," I have no clue) Maybe. And I most certainly hope so. Unfortunately, Buffy's reaction, or lack thereof, to Willow's comment about feeling "all those girls" at the end of the episode kinda ruined that hope.

(Unless, of course, the Slayer was in a state of shock from believing that she had lost some unnamed person, very precious to her, and just didn't understand what Willow was really saying)

Empowering that many girls in the manner that she did, with no warning, or explanation made just about as much sense as giving a room full of babies loaded shotguns to play with.

 

[Kinda Gay]

Personally, I loved it. It had a feminist empowering vibe, I honestly never thought about it being a violation. I suppose I can see it that way, but I feel it was necessary.

 

[The Bronze]

In the face of this threat, the feminist concept of "empowerment" seems a little irrelevant.

Yes I don't think feminism and empowerment should be viewed as above everything else. I mean if that's all that counts it could be instantly achieved by countries launching their nuclear weapons. Everyone would be on the same level then.

 

[Silverspike]

Err, no. How do you work that one out?

"Empowering that many girls in the manner that she did, with no warning, or explanation made just about as much sense as giving a room full of babies loaded shotguns to play with."

Exactly. At least the writers on AtS realised that and explored that side of things with Dana in 'Damage'.

 

[bespangeled]

Yes I don't think feminism and empowerment should be viewed as above everything else. I mean if that's all that counts it could be instantly achieved by countries launching their nuclear weapons. Everyone would be on the same level then.

So you would nuclear war as the same things as feminism and empowerment?

I kinda thought Buffy had a message of empowerment and feminism. Can both exist when the victim has no say in the matter? Isn't what you are saying kind of close to what those men did - we can change these girls and make them fight for us? Yes, the harbingers had gotten three that we saw - but 1725 survived.

 

[The Bronze]

@Silverspike & @bespangeled

A bad choice of wording on my part. I'm just saying it would be harsh to condemn Willow's actions on the grounds of anti-feminism, empowerment etc. when the alternative appears to be death for everyone. I don't see any value in either concept without anyone around to enjoy them.

 

[Silverspike]

Well as I said I blame Joss, not the characters caught up in this plot hole ridden story. 🙂

He's not a stupid man, and for all his talk off camera about feminism I'm amazed he didn't seem to get the most important part of that is the element of choice that was so often denied to so many women down the centuries.

 

[thetopher]

I kinda thought Buffy had a message of empowerment and feminism. Can both exist when the victim has no say in the matter? Isn't what you are saying kind of close to what those men did - we can change these girls and make them fight for us? Yes, the harbingers had gotten three that we saw - but 1725 survived.

I think it can.
The point of the show is that Buffy is in many ways a reluctant heroine- she never had a choice. She was the only one so she had to fight and eventually die because there was nobody else.

She got her Watcher with his rules and instructions and she, very slowly over time, defied how things were supposed to be done. She had a life outside slaying, friends who knew who and what she was and helped her. She worked with certain vampires (Angel and then chipped Spike) when simply slaying them would've been the company line to follow.

Eventually she quits the council and goes it alone, much to the council's shock. She does her own thing and only then starts to become empowered- because although she didn't choose to become the slayer she is now making her own choices.

But she is still very much alone, nobody else (except for that other slayer) can ever know what its like to be her- she's stuck where she is and doesn't have ultimate choice over her destiny. She's the slayer- 'one girl in all the world'. It's the key theme of the show.

So Buffy changes it, all those Potentials (who have already not been given a choice btw- that's why they're potentials in the first place) get the power that she and Faith have, the choice whether to use it (that Buffy never really had)- which in the end is what really matters.

One last thing- if the only thing that matters in this is how you get those powers, whether you had that choice or not, and not what you do choose to do with them/how to act when you do (as Buffy did), then Buffy herself never was, is or will be anything feminist- she is not a heroine but just a victim of some otherworldly force that took over her body.
If that's the reading of the show's ending then it isn't feminist right from the out and nothing can change that.

So, what matters more? The fact that somebody somewhere gave you the power to be strong, even though you didn't ask for it...or is it what you do with those powers now that really matters.

 

[Silverspike]

I'd say the element of choice myself. Being master of your own But then I realise that many male writers come from a different stand point and really don't understand that basic right.

 

[bespangeled]

I think it can.
The point of the show is that Buffy is in many ways a reluctant heroine- she never had a choice. She was the only one so she had to fight and eventually die because there was nobody else.

She got her Watcher with his rules and instructions and she, very slowly over time, defied how things were supposed to be done. She had a life outside slaying, friends who knew who and what she was and helped her. She worked with certain vampires (Angel and then chipped Spike) when simply slaying them would've been the company line to follow.

Eventually she quits the council and goes it alone, much to the council's shock. She does her own thing and only then starts to become empowered- because although she didn't choose to become the slayer she is now making her own choices.

But she is still very much alone, nobody else (except for that other slayer) can ever know what its like to be her- she's stuck where she is and doesn't have ultimate choice over her destiny. She's the slayer- 'one girl in all the world'. It's the key theme of the show.

So Buffy changes it, all those Potentials (who have already not been given a choice btw- that's why they're potentials in the first place) get the power that she and Faith have, the choice whether to use it (that Buffy never really had)- which in the end is what really matters.

One last thing- if the only thing that matters in this is how you get those powers, whether you had that choice or not, and not what you do choose to do with them/how to act when you do (as Buffy did), then Buffy herself never was, is or will be anything feminist- she is not a heroine but just a victim of some otherworldly force that took over her body.
If that's the reading of the show's ending then it isn't feminist right from the out and nothing can change that.

So, what matters more? The fact that somebody somewhere gave you the power to be strong, even though you didn't ask for it...or is it what you do with those powers now that really matters.

I'd say Buffy is empowered from the beginning, but I agree that she comes to have more as she makes more of her own decisions. She could have done other things with her powers - but her watcher came for her and started training her and imbuing her with a strong moral sense.

The issue is that she is doing this to almost 2000 girls who won't have a watcher, and may not have a strong moral sense. Because being a slayer gifts you with super powers but it doesn't make you want to help others. It may make you want that house, or those cabbages, make you want to make sure you get your kids to safety when demons come to destroy the village. Make sure no one is following. The threat you fight may not be demons, but humans.

Traditionally I would assume that the watcher exists to train, assess and call a wet works team if needed. Enough must have gone astray to keep a wet works team on hand at all times. So now the council is gone, the watchers are gone, the books destroyed - Buffy does what was done to her to that many girls and young women. They will never have her advantages - they won't even know what going rogue is since they don't know what their power is for. Buffy resents being violated - being part of a line of women who were violated without any say in the matter - so she does it to so many more? Sorry - consent is important. Oddly enough I think Buffy and Faith would agree because eventually they did consent to the role and the restrictions.

 

[white avenger]

At least the writers on AtS realized that and explored that side of things with Dana in 'Damage'.

Yeah, but, other than that one episode, the issue was never mentioned again, either in the rest of that Season, or in any of the comic books up until the present. It's as if Dana, as well as any other girl found for any reason incapable of handling the role of Slayer, were simply locked away somewhere and forgotten about

Do you think that it would occur to Buffy that, by activating all of those girls, she was doing pretty much the same thing to them that she condemned the Shadow Men for doing to the First Slayer and attempting to do to her? The ironic thing is that Buffy actually might have done worse than they did. The question was never actually addressed, other than the way that they tried to force Buffy to increase her powers, but the possibility exists, despite the only slight likelihood, that the Original Slayer might have actually volunteered, or at least have had some forewarning as to what she was getting into. The girls that Buffy activated never had so much as a hint that they might be anything but totally normal, then, suddenly they're given near superhuman strength and a flood of "ancestral" memories about fighting monsters. If that ain't a formula for "Potential" disaster, it'll do until the real thing comes along.

 

[Silverspike]

"Do you think that it would occur to Buffy that, by activating all of those girls, she was doing pretty much the same thing to them that she condemned the Shadow Men for doing to the First Slayer and attempting to do to her? "

No because Whedon didn't allow her to. As I said his story limited her choices, ironically enough.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

No because Whedon didn't allow her to. As I said his story limited her choices, ironically enough.

Exactly. The story could have been crafted differently. One in which it did not go against the ethos of the entire series.

 

[The Bronze]

Yeah, but, other than that one episode, the issue was never mentioned again, either in the rest of that Season, or in any of the comic books up until the present. It's as if Dana, as well as any other girl found for any reason incapable of handling the role of Slayer, were simply locked away somewhere and forgotten about

We had Simone and Genevieve. They couldn't handle the role. Kennedy and friends turning their gift into a money spinner. Faith's old crew chucking in the gig. We were given a whole lot of different scenarios for new slayers.

Do you think that it would occur to Buffy that, by activating all of those girls, she was doing pretty much the same thing to them that she condemned the Shadow Men for doing to the First Slayer and attempting to do to her? The ironic thing is that Buffy actually might have done worse than they did.

I posted on this earlier. Buffy saw what the Shadow Men did and she has been through activation. She therefore knows there is a big difference. So what Willow did was nothing like what the Shadow Men did.

The question was never actually addressed, other than the way that they tried to force Buffy to increase her powers, but the possibility exists, despite the only slight likelihood, that the Original Slayer might have actually volunteered, or at least have had some forewarning as to what she was getting into.

I suspect her warning was when she was apprehended and chained to the wall. It's a really slim chance that she volunteered given what we witnessed.

The girls that Buffy activated never had so much as a hint that they might be anything but totally normal, then, suddenly they're given near superhuman strength and a flood of "ancestral" memories about fighting monsters. If that ain't a formula for "Potential" disaster, it'll do until the real thing comes along.

Maybe they didn't have an idea but they were still different. They'd have soon had an idea they were different when The Bringers came to kill them.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Maybe they didn't have an idea but they were still different.

I totally disagree with that. The whole purpose of the soliloquy was to show those that would be 'fixed' were not different. They were the same as everyone else. They were everywomen.

 

[The Bronze]

I totally disagree with that. The whole purpose of the soliloquy was to show those that would be 'fixed' were not different. They were the same as everyone else. They were everywomen.

They showed no signs of being different but they were. The Bringers and The Watcher's Council before them wouldn't have been able to identify them otherwise.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The Bringers and The Watcher's Council before them wouldn't have been able to identify them otherwise.

Um, I dont think they DID identify them. It was never shown they were identified. The ones that were identified were killed or with Buffy.

 

[The Bronze]

The Watcher's identified potentials throughout history. That's why Merrick apologised to Buffy for taking so long to find her. It's why Kendra was raised by her Watcher long before being activated. It's why the Bringers were shown to be killing specific targets and not indiscriminately killing everyone.

 

[thetopher]

I'd say Buffy is empowered from the beginning, but I agree that she comes to have more as she makes more of her own decisions. She could have done other things with her powers - but her watcher came for her and started training her and imbuing her with a strong moral sense.

The issue is that she is doing this to almost 2000 girls who won't have a watcher, and may not have a strong moral sense. Because being a slayer gifts you with super powers but it doesn't make you want to help others.

I see your point- some of these slayers could be much more like Faith than like Buffy- in desparate need of guidance/support. As far as I can see the vast majority of activated slayers get that support, or at least the chance of it.

But the question here is 'is what Buffy is doing to these Potentials inherently dis-empowering by taking the choice out of their hands?' Is she just as bad as the shadow men?
If the answer is yes then Buffy and Faith are inherently victims. Sure they can gain a measure of power from their choices afterwards, but if what ultimately matters is how they were called, whether it was their decision or not, then the rest is kind of hollow.
And if we say that all those called by Willow's spell are victims of that spell, and not say- being given the choice what to do with the streength they already possess- (potentials) then how is Buffy any different?