Are you ready to be strong?

[Skanky Vamp]

So, at the end of Chosen, the Slayer and her witch decide to 'power share' the Slayer line. Thus activating the demon essence inside of all potentials- even potential potentials.

Some could argue that it is an abuse of anothers choice. Buffy sentencing hundreds (or thousands?) or girls to a life of abnormality, one in which they are not prepared, nor asked for. Others could argue that once again Buffy does what needs to be done to win.

Working on the assumption that Chosen was the end of the series, as it was meant to be, what do you think of the power-sharing idea? Was it robbing women of their own choice or was it empowering women by thrusting this upon them?

Thanks @janas for the idea

 

[Fuffy Baith]

If this had been the end of the series I'd be more ok with it. But since it's not, and they have the new slayers in the comics, I don't like it. I do think that it is a bit wrong giving this "gift" to a bunch of girls most of which have no idea what's going on. And then there's Dana in Damages. If that happened to me, I'd be bit upset that someone just decided this for me. Sure the super powers are cool, but Buffy of all people knows how hard it is to be a normal girl, and sometimes that's all you want. Having to fight vampires and demons and be put in dangerous situations all the time would suck.

 

[EVIL UU]

If you alter a person's body and mind without their consent it's sure as hell not empowerment - it's a power grab. Like Buffy, the potentials were wronged and you know what? F@#$ 'em! If only 10% of potentials survive the first year as slayers and continue to hunt throughout the world - yeah, it's a lot of dead demons. Willow's spell is barbaric, it's like carpet bombing and napalm but guess what, it works.

 

[Taake]

If I recall correctly @Lyri has had some interesting things to say about this in the past that really made me think about it. So I call for thy attention fair lady 🙂

 

[Blaze]

Ya, it's a violation to do this to other girls. Imagine how Buffy felt when she learnt where the slayer essence comes from, and yet she goes ahead with the spell anyway. But the truth is, it was kinda necessary. And the good things about having thousands of slayers is that you can imagine they would have a choice to fight or not. So in a sense they're not in the same situation as Buffy. They've been given powers, which they can choose to use or not. It's still not right, but for the greater good, it's kinda right.

 

[Taake]

I didn't like it myself. I mean I get it for the purpose of the ending that they had to do it, because they had written themselves into that corner I might add...

Take Buffy herself. She's a young woman at this point, not a teenager but as a teenager... say in season one, what would she have said to someone saying "Are you ready to be strong?" Would she have found it empowering? Did she in LA? Hardly. If anything, by the time she gets to Sunnydale, we can see that she feels pretty much done with Slaying. She doesn't want to have that kind of strenght that has been forced upon her. In the end she claims her role of course but how many seasons don't we see her struggling to come to grips with it? How hard isn't it for her to be the Slayer? How many times has she not wished that she could've said no or given up that role that was thrust upon her?

Basically I think that they end the show by making Buffy just as bad as the Shadow Men. I mean... they had a reason too...

It's - "the end justifies the means", though they forget the phrase that should always come attached to that which is "as long as the means justify the end." To some, clearly, forcing Slayer-hood (which affects more than strenght as we've seen in Buffy) on countless young women is justified. To me it kind of hollowed out everything that the show had so far shown and it greatly devalued Buffy as a character in my eyes. I still don't feel convinced that Buffy would actually do that...

 

[thetopher]

Violation? Yeah I suppose. But the world continues to turn so it was nessesary.

I think it was empowering to all the girls that were there in Sunnydale ( and if they'd left it at that I can't see any real objections)...but not so much to all those that didn't have the choice.
Being as slayer is to be infested with demonic essence- we are shown that there's a darkness/downside to this throughout the show.

Except...it's not entirely clear where Willow's spell's power comes from. I presume that it comes from the scythe, (the spell FX's seem to support this) not demonic essence since that makes a lot more sense.
The demonic power spreads down from one girl to the next over generations and now suddenly we're supposed to believe that there's enough of this essence to infest thousands of girls all at once?

On the other hand the scythe's power seems to work in concert with the slayer's- it vibes with it and compliments it, makes whomever is holding it that much stronger (if they're a slayer) so Willow's power taps directly into the scythe and transferes it down the slayer line to all the girls in the world.
That would mean no demonic taint which in my book means no violation/downside to be honest- there's the power and nothing much else.

That also means that Buffy and Faith are the only 'true' slayers- which is kinda what I feel anyway when I look at the comics.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I believe they put more emphasis on the visual aspect as opposed to any higher meaning.. the girl up to bat, the woman getting beat, etc. Visually, coupled with the voiceover it was very powerful and moving. It's only when you look at the big picture that you see the abuse of it. Considering, since the writer is god, the spell could have easily been limited to a certain radius, to affect only the potentials we see on screen. But then you would lose the visual money shot of 'girl power.' And I think that is what the final thought was meant to be. All women have this power inside them, they just have to realize it, and manifest it. The fact the story continued lessened it.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Not to rehash that particular S7 topic again (the thread is still up) but this is my opinion. It was a violation for the potentials outside Sunnydale (which supposedly didn't exist until Joss needed them in the finale...but that's irrelevant) for the simple fact that they didn't consent. You can try to spin that in any positive way you want it still doesn't change the basic fact that these girls didn't consent. It also wasn't female empowerment for the simple fact that Buffy didn't share her power with ALL women, just the deserving few. Only those with the 'sacred birth right' if you will. That's not empowerment, that's creating an elite class of superpowered people.

Buffy also knows from personal experience how the power can be mis-used in the wrong hands. She had experienced it herself via Faith. When you have thousands of slayers it's no big leap to assume there might be more than just a handful who could do some major damage. There are bound to be some who had a crappy childhood and bad homes (like Faith), some who are mentally unstable (Dana or even less severe cases) , some who come from poor homes and now can take things they always wanted, some who let the power get to their head or they can turn into an actual major baddie (wasn't there one in the comics?).

Also imagine if you are for example a mother of a teenaged potential. Wouldn't you be the first to bust down Buffy's door asking what gave her the right to do this to your daughter? Or if you are a family member of those people that Dana killed. Or for example a store or bank owner.

Damn, I had more to say but it totally escaped me just now...

 

[janas]

Yes, more or less what said @Mr. Pole summarizes my thoughts. Initially designed to be a feminist message, the power sharing in the season eight turned out to be a bad thing. So that "We changed the world" became "We activated the Twilight's prophecy" thus starting the prophesized apocalypse. It's this is one of the reasons why I don't like season eight, Joss has swept away all the emphasis on "every one us slayers" and now no other Slayer will be called.

 

[Lyri]

Alright, so I don't actually know what @Taake is remembering that makes her think I'd have something half-way decent to offer this thread, but since I was called out, I felt compelled to answer, lol.

The main thing to me about the spell wasn't that Buffy was giving the Potentials powers against their will. They already had that power inside of them. Literally, before the spell, every single one of the Potentials had the power to be the Slayer, because that power was always in them. All the spell did was unlock it, give them access to it.

It was completely up to the girls what the chosen to do with this power, which was a choice Buffy herself never had. Buffy had to be the Slayer. End of discussion.

With the exception of the battle in 'Chosen', Buffy never once made any of the girls fight - and even in 'Chosen', she still gave the girls in her care the option of fighting or not fighting. She might have awakened the power of the Slayer within these girls, but she left the decision to use them or not up to them.

In S8, she says there are 1800 Slayers in the world at that point (there might be more now, considering Soledad) but there are 'only' 500 separated into 10 squads. That means that there are 1300 Slayers who chose to back to their ordinary lives and not pick up a stake.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that what Buffy did was right or moral. I don't think she was thinking about anything other than the task at hand. She never stopped to consider what would happen after. But I also think she was completely out of ideas at this point and this was the only thing she could think of that might tip the balance in their favor.

I also think (and I stole this theory from our Boss Lady) that Buffy and the others never realized that there were other Potentials still out there. I firmly believe that they thought that the only Potentials left in the world where the ones camped out in the living room and that's why she gave them the speech and the choice.

I think that, if Buffy had known that there were girls out there who would be affected by the spell, girls who would have had no idea about what was happening to them, she would have tried harder to think of another way.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I also think (and I stole this theory from our Boss Lady) that Buffy and the others never realized that there were other Potentials still out there. I think that, if Buffy had known that there were girls out there who would be affected by the spell, girls who would have had no idea about what was happening to them, she would have tried harder to think of another way.

But according to her speech she did,
"from now on, every girl in the world who might be a slayer will be a slayer. Every girl who could have the power will have power."

She didn't say you all (the sunnydale potentials) will became slayers, or you all will have power.. she said every girl in the world- not just Sunnydale.

 

[Lyri]

What, the same way she said that it would be HER death that would DEFINITELY Call one of THEM, the girls in the room with her, to be the Slayer?

 

[EVIL UU]

Except...it's not entirely clear where Willow's spell's power comes from. I presume that it comes from the scythe, (the spell FX's seem to support this) not demonic essence since that makes a lot more sense.

The source of Scythe's power is a demon:

Dracula: Take my sword. It's one of the ancient relics. Bound with demon power - like your scythe.

 

[Blaze]

Just to add a few more points, this is basically an ethic dilemma in it's most basic form. In one corner we have the Utilitarian ethics, the end justifies the means, if it means the end is for the greater good. In the other corner we have Kant's formula of the end in itself "act so as to treat people always as ends in themselves, never as mere means".

But I think in the end Lyri brought up some good points. The new slayers truly do have a choice, all the spell did was give them super strength. They're no obliged to fight like Buffy and Faith. And although still a violation, it could be seen as right to give something positive to people around the world. Like if I could give everyone around the world super health, where they heal quickly, and never get sick, but the one downfall is I don't get to obtain their consent, I might still choose to do it anyway.

Another good point is whether or not a potential is different to begin with. At that point the potentials were also being hunted down, most of them knew about the slayers, those who didn't had even more chances of being murdered. Activating the slayer was an end in itself to prevent more potentials from dying.

 

[bespangeled]

We're all focusing on American girls - there girls in other countries and other cultures to whom this power might be a death sentence. Yes, a slayer can kill demons and vamps, but not armies and weapons used to make sure that women remain powerless. Nor can that affect the culture - imagine being super powered, having that itch to hunt, and being stuck in a burqua. Having the physical power to rebel would get you stoned or beheaded. And without watchers to go around they would have no idea what had happened, and what was going on in there lives. I suspect that activated potential slayer in some countries would be massacred, as would anyone accused of being ungodly strong.

 

[bespangeled]

Uhm...sorry about being a buzzkill 🙁😉

 

[The Bronze]

I've weighed into this argument at length before. It was good debate, I think we derailed a different thread and had to be shuffled along into a new and very lengthy section.

https://buffy-boards.com/threads/chosen-empowering-the-potentials-female-empowerment.63058/

A few of my thoughts because I'm a bit too lazy to write them out again.

So first thought is what they're up against:

From The First Evil: "Look, when this is all over, and our armies spring forth, and our will sweeps the world, I will be able to enter every man, woman, and child on this Earth, just as I enter you."
There you have it. The enemy wishes to violate every man, woman and child. That is what the fight is against.

Second thought about who is affected and might be empowered:

The First (in its cross hairs) -> Potential Slayers -> Slayers -> Regular men and women

So by my reasoning regular women would feel no more empowered by this episode than a regular man because the spell doesn't affect them. What the spell achieves is to shift all of the potential slayers into the slayer category. They are still then first in line for execution but they have abilities to defend themselves. I think that's empowering for that group of people. Which is probably why that group of people voted for it when they were given a choice. If the majority of potentials that were asked said no then Willow wouldn't have done the spell. Then you'd have the poor potentials who voted yes to being able to defend themselves disempowered by the no votes.

Third thought about priorities in this situation:

I'm really struggling to picture the potentials who were being carved up by bringers thinking "I'm so glad I don't have the ability to defend myself" right before they died. Or that if Willow had done nothing and let The First march along how it wanted that the women of the world would have thanked her. An army released from the hellmouth and The First with the ability to enter humans at will and the women of the world turn round and say "the world's ending but at least none of us have been given super powers to help save ourselves and our loved ones".
Women's empowerment and feminism become entirely irrelevant if there's no world left for them to exist in.

So for me it was a good idea in the situation and very empowering to the potential slayers.

 

[thetopher]

The source of Scythe's power is a demon:

Dracula: Take my sword. It's one of the ancient relics. Bound with demon power - like your scythe.

I didn't get the sense that the scythe is in any way demonic- either from the white-haired exposition lady or Giles when he researched it- it just seemed like a magical weapon forged for the slayer. We've seen plenty of magical weapons on the show that have nothing to do with demons. Troll hammer, blessed sword etc.
On the other hand I can't think of a single weapon that is 'demonic' in power that isn't made by a demon.

We're all focusing on American girls - there girls in other countries and other cultures to whom this power might be a death sentence. Yes, a slayer can kill demons and vamps, but not armies and weapons used to make sure that women remain powerless. Nor can that affect the culture - imagine being super powered, having that itch to hunt, and being stuck in a burqua. Having the physical power to rebel would get you stoned or beheaded.

In this case I would always hold the person doing the stoning, beheading or whatever responsible, not Buffy. These are societies where gang rape is an exceptable form of punishment for women who have relations (either knowingly or unknowingly) with a married man. The punishment for the man? Nothing.

In the societies that you're describing women are already victims of brutalisation, they're already treated like second class citizens without any way to fight back.
The slayer power would at least give them some chance to balance the scales.

My point is that these societies are inherently unfair anyway- that has nothing to do with Buffy or the spell.

 

[Firstina]

I think being a potential is a lot more frustrating than being a Slayer. It's like waking up every day not knowing whether today you will be called or tomorrow. It costs a lot of nerves, IMO.

Regardless of Buffy's choice everyone of these girls are already living a strange life. We can't call them normal - they know about supernatural creatures, about possibility of becoming a Slayer, some of them have Watchers. Hell, for me, it is a lot more awful to live your life in such constant waiting. "What can I say? I need a closure" - as one of the characters said.

And one of the major factors - they are murdered by the Bringers without a possibility to fight back.

So, yeah, I am okay with Buffy's decision. For me a situation like "to be o not to be a Slayer" continuing through your whole life is much worse.
And anyway even after Buffy's discovery about the demonic powers of a Slayer still one girl will be called. So what, we have no pity for this one girl but we are disturbed by the Chosen Everybody situation? At least they have a choice to use or not to use that power.

And I see the demonic power stuff as a demonization of a women by men - and Buffy's choice as demonstration that it's okay to be strong. It's not the demon it's who we are that make us strong - there is no need to be ashamed of being a woman.