Are you ready to be strong?

[Skanky Vamp]

I do not think the issue is that a male wrote it. I think the issue is that a male claiming to be a feminist wrote it.

It's like the Portlandia skit

 

where people should be trying to understand each other more, and we're putting up walls saying 'you can't because you're not like us.

But isn't part of that trying to understand each other is actually listening to their voiced concerns? Rather than arguing their merit. We wont ever understand the other if we dont listen and appreciate what they are saying, and realize that because they are the group for which the narrative is speaking, they may have a better insight.

 

[Taake]

I do not think the issue is that a male wrote it. I think the issue is that a male claiming to be a feminist wrote it..

Yes, that's it for me. Not that he's male, but that he has for long been on the feminist bandwagon, especially in regards to promoting Buffy and the "girl power" aspect of the show. Then, with Buffy's final stand (for those who don't follow the comics), we get this half-baked idea that the show goes out on and it's terribly disappointing for a show that's considered so "girl powery"/"feministy".

And it's not the idea of activating the potentials in and of itself, it's how it's presented - as empowerment.

You take this thing you've portrayed as a horrible burden for seven years and then suddenly you turn it around and present it as a "gift" or a burden to be shared amongst several women, the majority who have not given their consent to this, and you say - here ye, women, stand tall and roar for this is empowerment!

And it's just not.

I would have felt a lot better with the idea if it had been presented like; all right, this is a pretty bad idea, but it's all we've got and we're going to have to deal with the consequences of it later but for now... it's what we've got to do. Buffy makes mistakes too.

Kind of like they portray Angel wiping his friends memories to save his son, or even how Angel somehow thought Twilight was a good idea... it's an idea that you know is not really right, that no one is saying is really right, but that the watcher (or the character) is made to believe is necessary so they go through with it. And then they have to own up to it and live with it/deal with it (and catch the appropriate flack for it)

But to say that taking away the majority of the potentials right to decide whether they want to be on Buffy's team or not (someone stated earlier that a Slayer who opted out was killed and served as a cautionary tale...) or if they want to be called as Slayers at all, and saying that it's about female empowerment is just... incredibly misguided.

In it's essence it's just wrong, because no one - not even Slayer Extraordinaire - has a right to decide over other women.
In it's continuance (with the above mentioned cautionary tale) it makes Buffy something of a tyrant who has not only forced the unwilling into something they will physically and mentally be forever, but her team is also the only team to be on if you want to survive...? What exactly is the empowering message here?

 

[gite63]

I would have felt a lot better with the idea if it had been presented like; all right, this is a pretty bad idea, but it's all we've got and we're going to have to deal with the consequences of it later but for now... it's what we've got to do.

Exactly. Buffy always had to make hard choices, on the spot. The world is in danger, what was she supposed to do? Wait and see if the thingy Angel brought would work? But the message delivered by the writers is another matter. 

In it's essence it's just wrong, because no one - not even Slayer Extraordinaire - has a right to decide over other women.

I'm not a feminist, so I think Slayer Extraordinaire has no right to decide over any person. But she did save the world a lot, so she's entitely to make some mistakes...

 

[EVIL UU]

I do not think the issue is that a male wrote it. I think the issue is that a male claiming to be a feminist wrote it.

Stephanie Meyer claims to be a feminist too, just sayin'.

 

[VisionBoy]

I can totally understand the issues people have with the spell, I'm actually inclined to agree. But just in Joss' defense, I'm not sure why people are making out as if Joss has no female influence around him. Plenty of women are involved in making and writing BTVS and always have been. Yes, he wrote the finale, but it's not like "Chosen" was a story that came out of nowhere; the whole season was leading up to it. I highly doubt that nobody else had any input.

I know it wasn't said that men can never write well for women in a feministic (is that a word) way, but for what it's worth, the majority of the female led works of fiction that I love are actually created by men. That is just what I read and watch, but I felt I should say it never the less.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Stephanie Meyer claims to be a feminist too, just sayin'.

Very good observation. Did you have point? Or were you just sayin?

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Very good observation. Did you have point? Or were you just sayin?

Oh my god, lmao. I'm sorry, this was just funny. I like both of you

 

[sk]

I don't know... I hate this label thing.
Is Joss a feminists or not? Can you write a "bad" empowerment story and still be a feminists?

I can see the problems with Joss story. It truly has some issues.
(Even if personally prefer to see it from the positive side, as I think it was meant to, and not focusing on the weak points...)

But I've no problem that Joss is calling himself a feminists.
Because I think he still is entitle to consider himself being a feminists even if I don't agree with every story he writes.

I have no idea what Joss himself think of this story. Pretty sure that he says in the commentary that is a story about empowerment though.
But is he well aware of it weak sides? or does he insists that it's the his greatest piece ever?
To me it doesn't really matter. In the end so can even feminists have a different views on things, different preferences, different taste etc.

/SK

 

[bespangeled]

Exactly. Buffy always had to make hard choices, on the spot. The world is in danger, what was she supposed to do? Wait and see if the thingy Angel brought would work? But the message delivered by the writers is another matter. 


I'm not a feminist, so I think Slayer Extraordinaire has no right to decide over any person. But she did save the world a lot, so she's entitely to make some mistakes...

I am a feminist, and I completely agree. Of course, I'm old enough to remember when little girls wore dresses and petticoats to school, and had to take home ec to learn how to make an apron and cook. My 2nd grade teacher was fired when she became pregnant because authorities were afrais children would 'ask questions' - not good for the cabbage patch explanation. I suspect we have very different ideas of what feminism is.🙂

 

[EVIL UU]

@Mr. Pole
No, it's just, you have two feminists - one creates Twilight, the other creates Buffy and shit is an issue to you because the dude's a dude. So I guess, Twilight's fine 'cause Meyer's not a dude, right? Like, dude. Seriously.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

@Mr. Pole
No, it's just, you have two feminists - one creates Twilight, the other creates Buffy and shit is an issue to you because the dude's a dude. So I guess, Twilight's fine 'cause Meyer's not a dude, right? Like, dude. Seriously.

I think you failed to wholly understand the point of the conversation. The summation of it which you mention above could not be further from what was being said. Just sayin'

 

[EVIL UU]

I think you failed to wholly understand the point of the conversation. The summation of it which you mention above could not be further from what was being said. Just sayin'

Well, the way I understand it, you and @Silverspike are blatantly sexist. I find seeing such attitudes on a board about Buffy the Vampire Slayer highly disheartening and disappointing. That's all I have to say.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Well, the way I understand it, you and @Silverspike are blatantly sexist. I find seeing such attitudes on a board about Buffy the Vampire Slayer highly disheartening and disappointing. That's all I have to say.

Well, if that is your understanding it's no wonder you didnt get the points being raised.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

@sk73 you made some great points and I agree. I'm more sympathetic with the general argument previously about the idea that there are some things about a woman's nature and experience that women are better capable of speaking about. Partly because men's experience of the world, speaking generally, will tend to make them blind to certain features because they have no direct experience of them (because they don't have to). For analogy, African Americans in my country see different things in society than white people do, and it's obvious why, because one group has been historically disenfranchised (in all ways) and still suffers to the contemporary day from the consequences of that, and white people are the inheritors of nothing but privileged status (in all ways) in this country. Of course, that doesn't mean that (some) white people don't have valuable opinions to contribute in a discussion on race, and that doesn't mean that some white people haven't learned to see the world from different points of view, e.g. African Americans (speaking generally). And that doesn't mean that some African Americans do not experience marginalization more than others. But still, what we are, speaking to the fundamental differences, makes a big difference on what we can perceive and see and what we can't, and that makes a difference when we try to speak about certain topics. Gender is the same way. The counter arguments have their valid points but I think they are, in general, too dismissive of the effects of these differences.

Sometimes well meaning people still misunderstand what they are passionate about. Critical race theory made this point salient for me. Someone who declares themselves a feminist can still misunderstand the nature of the problem, or the nuances. But on the other hand, and I think this is fair to say, there is not just one kind of feminism, but many. Feminism's definition is still up for debate, and the details are still up for debate, AND it is something that continues to move as time and society changes. For example, a big debate among feminists at one point in time involved pornography: is pornography oppressive, women being used by the male power system and being exploited or defined as objects, or is pornography liberating, in the sense that women can freely and openly express their sexuality and not feel guilty for it in the light of the long history of female disempowerment? Feminists never settled the issue, as far as I understand, and feminism can be debated in many other ways too.

The point is, not every person's definition of feminism will be the same either. There is no consensus, and we should not pretend or assume that there is. But it is easy for us to make that assumption anyway, as evidenced by this thread (and I'm guilty of this type of mistake from time to time as well).

 

[The Bronze]

In it's essence it's just wrong, because no one - not even Slayer Extraordinaire - has a right to decide over other women.

So Buffy is wrong right from the start. She goes out to save Willow, a women, without finding out if she would like to die or become a vampire first.

it makes Buffy something of a tyrant who has not only forced the unwilling into something they will physically and mentally be forever

I'm not sure that tyrants work in the same way Buffy does. Do they usually take in a house full of refugees, provide food, shelter and protection and then personally go out and fight for them? How many tyrants discuss their plans with representatives from the people most likely to be affected and then take a vote before action? How many tyrants would be the first into battle and not ask anybody to do things they weren't willing to do themselves? How many tyrants can take credit for saving the lives of billions of people, repeatedly? Maybe the world needs more tyrants if that's the standard.

but her team is also the only team to be on if you want to survive...?

The vast majority of the population survive. The vast majority of the population don't work with Buffy. So her actions protect a lot more people than just those that work with her.

 

[gite63]

Of course, I'm old enough to remember when little girls wore dresses and petticoats to school, and had to take home ec to learn how to make an apron and cook

I'm quite old, too! I grew up in the 60's - but I attended school wearing blue jeans and plaid shirt, and we did learn how to cook and sew, which didn't do much for me, because I'm a terrible cook and don't sew! Sometimes, the boys (who took care of a vegetable garden), came to cook with us.

 

[bespangeled]

I'm quite old, too! I grew up in the 60's - but I attended school wearing blue jeans and plaid shirt, and we did learn how to cook and sew, which didn't do much for me, because I'm a terrible cook and don't sew! Sometimes, the boys (who took care of a vegetable garden), came to cook with us.

I started kindergarten in 1960 - in fact, we still had school prayer. But things changed radically by the time I was older. I will say I absolutely yearned for a strong heroine like Buffy - but I was told that my job was to make a man happy and have children. I was a strong feminist in the infancy of the movement. 
@Mr. Pole - I held the high school record for being able to do more than 60 sit-ups in a minute. 😛

Bet Buffy could have beat that into the ground.

 

[Firstina]

I would have felt a lot better with the idea if it had been presented like; all right, this is a pretty bad idea, but it's all we've got and we're going to have to deal with the consequences of it later but for now... it's what we've got to do. Buffy makes mistakes too.

But Buffy starts her famous last speech with a words like I hate being chosen, I hate this, I hate that there is evil out where but It's not about the wishes in this situation.

 

[thetopher]

Why yes - since transgendered are clearly germane, then I must be completely wrong for supporting the idea women have different insights than men. Not sure why you guys keep insisting different means better. Do you feel threatened in some way?
No one is saying that

Different is not better. My opinion is valid even if you disagree. I see things differently because of what I bring
to the show - one thing I bring is a lifetime of being a woman. It seems some people are incredibly threatened by any person even bringing this up.

For your information, these posts are what set me off:

I beg your pardon? I'm afraid this is the reality for many women in todays male dominated world. Many male writers don't understand a womens point of view when it comes to how society treats and views females. It's different observing something to actually being it 24/7.

And maybe it does, because can you honestly say you know whats it's like to be female?

No It's really not and to think otherwise is being a wee bit arrogant imo. Being it is very different to observing it, however sympathetic a person might think they were.

It's heavily implied that, by virtue of being female, some people are more qualified to speak out on the issues raised in 'Chosen'. Hiding behind gender politics about something as universal as dis-empowerment (my father was Irish Catholic and knew a little something about that sort of prejudice) isn't particularly helpful , or indeed accurate.

I never said that I was 'threatened' by anybody, female or not, making statements about not liking the ending of Buffy. But critizing the plot just because it was written by a man is, and always will be, a shallow argument.

 

[Silverspike]

Thats not what we're saying, apart from the fact yes, imo a women knows more what it's like to be, you know an actual women, more the a man. Why do some find that so strange a concept?

But as I said up thread, whatever. I'm sure you know best. 🙂