As a Bangel Shipper which of these "other" ships bothered you the most?

[EarthLogic]

But the same was true of Angel. The characters were sort of reworked post S3 BtVS. I mean just in the pilot of Angel...he suddenly knows how to use computers when in S2 he had to ask Willow, he knows explosives and wiring, he knows how to drive. And later we learn he knows how to cook. On and on it goes.

-R.e. computers, I suppose you could argue that he needed Willow to do a very specific search - well, hack - which he would not have known how to do himself and not been able to do from a public computer.
-In which episode did he know about wiring? I can kind of fanwank that: Angel does have an eidedic memory so it's not hard to imagine him reading a set of instructions and memorising them...I think.😵
-I can certainly imagine him knowing how to drive - he's lived through the invention of the car after all!
-And I like the cooking thing - it's cute and we don't see him do much more than scrambled eggs and toast so it's probable that his cooking skills are very limited. Explanation 1) Cordy made him learn how to do it to keep her fed. You know how persistent she can be. Explanation 2) A fanfic I read one had Angel mention that he worked night shifts as a fry-cook at a shabby diner for a time in the 60s/70s so that he could earn a bit of money to buy blood on the black market. I really like this idea!🙂

 

[RomanticSoul]

-R.e. computers, I suppose you could argue that he needed Willow to do a very specific search - well, hack - which he would not have known how to do himself and not been able to do from a public computer.
-In which episode did he know about wiring? I can kind of fanwank that: Angel does have an eidedic memory so it's not hard to imagine him reading a set of instructions and memorising them...I think.😵
-I can certainly imagine him knowing how to drive - he's lived through the invention of the car after all!
-And I like the cooking thing - it's cute and we don't see him do much more than scrambled eggs and toast so it's probable that his cooking skills are very limited. Explanation 1) Cordy made him learn how to do it to keep her fed. You know how persistent she can be. Explanation 2) A fanfic I read one had Angel mention that he worked night shifts as a fry-cook at a shabby diner for a time in the 60s/70s so that he could earn a bit of money to buy blood on the black market. I really like this idea!🙂

It's not really the point. My points was that the dimension added to Angel's character in the pilot episode alone, was huge. These are all things that could have been set up during his time in Sunnydale. If Joss ever cared about using him as anything other than Buffy's sounding board or extra person in a fight.

The computer thing is unbelievable. We know Angel had been wasting in alley's since the diner incident. That was before computers. Not enough time between Whistler recruiting and going to Sunnydale to learn how to use them either. The cooking stuff would have been nice and made a nice scene when he was still on Buffy but I'm sure they hadn't thought up that skill of his'. If he could drive why never have a car in Sunnydale, Giles, Spike and Cordelia did. If Angel knows his way around a building's wiring and timed explosives, sure would have come in handy when they did Mission Impossible in the Mayor's office.

My point is simply, Angel was rather simple in Sunnydale because they didn't bother to flesh him out. But as he goes from side-kick to lead, they had to expand on his character right from the start. I suggest the same is true of Cordy.

 

[EarthLogic]

It's not really the point. My points was that the dimension added to Angel's character in the pilot episode alone, was huge. These are all things that could have been set up during his time in Sunnydale. If Joss ever cared about using him as anything other than Buffy's sounding board or extra person in a fight.

The computer thing is unbelievable. We know Angel had been wasting in alley's since the diner incident. That was before computers. Not enough time between Whistler recruiting and going to Sunnydale to learn how to use them either. The cooking stuff would have been nice and made a nice scene when he was still on Buffy but I'm sure they hadn't thought up that skill of his'. If he could drive why never have a car in Sunnydale, Giles, Spike and Cordelia did. If Angel knows his way around a building's wiring and timed explosives, sure would have come in handy when they did Mission Impossible in the Mayor's office.

My point is simply, Angel was rather simple in Sunnydale because they didn't bother to flesh him out. But as he goes from side-kick to lead, they had to expand on his character right from the start. I suggest the same is true of Cordy.

Oh I agree with your point completely. I was just trying to work backwards and come up with some headcanon to explain them away. It doesn't make much sense when you watch the shows but it's fun to think about. The only one I can't fanwank away is the computer thing - despite my explanation for why he goes to Willow I agree it's not believable at all.
It's difficult to discern your tone so I wonder do you like the reworkings themselves or not? (leaving aside the fact that the writers didn't flesh him out on BtVS)

 

[RomanticSoul]

It's difficult to discern your tone so I wonder do you like the reworkings themselves or not? (leaving aside the fact that the writers didn't flesh him out on BtVS)

Absolutely. Since it's not so much rework as it's just adding dimension. The only problem that comes with this is of course...why did he never do anything like that in Sunnydale? Why couldn't Joss be bothered? How fun would it have been to see Angel go to computer classes at night, since we never see him in S3 anyway and he had to be doing something more than just reading a book every night.

As long as it doesn't violate established canon, adding dimension is never a bad things. However if they try to retcon (see Cordy in regards to Bangel knowledge), me goes Hulk because me no like.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

The only problem that comes with this is of course...why did he never do anything like that in Sunnydale? Why couldn't Joss be bothered?

Well I think we know it's because Joss didn't really give a flying crap about Angel. See how much he did little things to add character work to Spike - he watches Passions, he likes Blooming Onion, etc etc. He couldn't throw those little types of bones to Angel. It didn't need to be a whole scene it could just be like Buffy looking through his music collection and finding a CD/Tape of Barry Manilow.

 

[Grace]

He couldn't throw those little types of bones to Angel.

Well, Angel was the one reading the book that Joss has called the most important he ever read – La Nausée – in the original French, no less. We saw that Angel loved poetry in his gift to Buffy of Sonnets from the Portuguese. He knew Tai Chi. I'm not saying they couldn't have done more, but I do feel like I learned little things about Angel along the way. They carried his love of reading into S1 of AtS, for example.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Well, Angel was the one reading the book that Joss has called the most important he ever read – La Nausée – in the original French, no less. We saw that Angel loved poetry in his gift to Buffy of Sonnets from the Portuguese. He knew Tai Chi. I'm not saying they couldn't have done more, but I do feel like I learned little things about Angel along the way. They carried his love of reading into S1 of AtS, for example.

And you are right, to be fair they did give him some character work. But I would argue not enough for my liking. And most if not all came from Season 3. I’ve could have used a little more.

 

[Grace]

And you are right, to be fair they did give him some character work. But I would argue not enough for my liking. And most if not all came from Season 3. I’ve could have used a little more.

True. Though I wouldn't trade that shot of Angel reading in front of the fireplace for all the bloomin' onions in the world. 🙂

(Yes, I just rewatched Lovers Walk.)

 

[VisionGirl]

I'm a Bangel, though I much prefer Buffy in her original characterization before she was ruined in the later seasons by turning into something barely recognizable. She was once the girl who wanted nothing more than to be a normal girl, but at the same time, do the right thing because she wanted to help. Buffy at her best is the version that restored Angel's faith in humanity and was willing to selflessly sacrifice when she actually desperately wanted to live and have Angel back. The version of her when she was tired of life and wanted out, would sacrifice Dawn instead of herself in a do-over and created a master race of Slayers by taking away thousands of girls' free will, which she knew made them less human with a demon essence (something she was horrified by when it was done to her and felt she was being robbed of her humanity when it once meant everything to her and something she saw as making her a superior fighter to other Slayers who rejected it), was not the hero she once was. I loved her in the high school years far more before she regressed. She would need to get back to her old sense of morality and yearning for me to be okay with Bangel reuniting. And no, there's hardly anything about the comics that is in character for either Buffy or Angel.

HOWEVER, if Darla was resurrected with a soul and syphilis wasn't about to kill her again, I would have absolutely zero complaints if she and Angel attempted a relationship. I love her and her two redemptions. Angel's love of his life is Connor and I would love to see Darla given a chance outside of being a ghostly visitor to get to be a mother and get the love she so craved in life.

Ok I'm just starting to read this monster thread lol. I love your thoughts here and actually totally agree on all accounts however... you know that this show/'verse is never about to give us the happy endings we desire for these characters so we will have to look for these in fanfics. Still I would love to see some writings along these lines.

Ok, back to reading!
 

I think the biggest surprise of this poll has been the support for Dangel despite the name from Bangel folks. I never bothered much for the pairing but I am surprised to see the support for it. I can't help but wonder if they had continued to develop the relationship into something more along the lines of Spuffy if people would still feel as strongly about the pairing.

I'm not surprised by the Cangel dislike but I wonder if any Bangel folks out there root for Cangel if so speak up! I would love to hear that perspective.

Again, jumping in the middle of the conversation here. I don't have a lot to add to the Dangel discussion because I have the same deep appreciation that most others here have and you all have expressed it so well.

I'm not sure that I can say that I root for Cangel so much that I am ambivalent about Cangel. I love Cordelia's character & character progression. I adore the Cangel friendship and believe it was so important to the show & Angel's character development. I'm not against a Cangel romance per se (I know, I know it almost hurts my little Bangel thumbs to type that!), I just think that it was so poorly done! So while there are times I feel drawn in because of my love for both characters, the way the story is told ruins it for me. I don't know, perhaps if someone found a way to envision it differently for me, a way of unfolding it that would've looked differently, I might not feel that way. And a threat? I guess, yeah. I hadn't thought of that before, but someone mentioned it before, but the timing completely sucks. I know that being on two differently networks was part of why there were few mentions of Buffy's death and all that, but combined with the forced nature of it, it doesn't work well for me and leaves a bad taste that ultimately almost ruins the friendship/relationship for me. Thankfully we have You're Welcome.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

. I don't know, perhaps if someone found a way to envision it differently for me, a way of unfolding it that would've looked differently, I might not feel that way.

I asked this of another member upstream but I’ll ask you too. How do you think Cangel romance should have been done so that you would have bought in?

 

[VisionGirl]

I asked this of another member upstream but I’ll ask you too. How do you think Cangel romance should have been done so that you would have bought in?

Gosh, I wish I had a good answer for this! But if I did I think I would be an award-winning television writer lol. I definitely think the romance part was brought on way too suddenly and forced. Every time it was mentioned by someone else, it got an "Eww" or questioning reaction from Angel or Cordelia, like it had never crossed their mind before. It just seemed like there wasn't a genuine attraction until it was mentioned by someone else. I would've loved to have seen that grow on its own, organically. I think it could have. They shared so much. Romances grow from friendships all the time. I don't think it was inevitable though. I would've been perfectly happy if they had stayed friends and been very meaningful in their lives that way.

 

[Jam]

I definitely think the romance part was brought on way too suddenly and forced. Every time it was mentioned by someone else, it got an "Eww" or questioning reaction from Angel or Cordelia, like it had never crossed their mind before. It just seemed like there wasn't a genuine attraction until it was mentioned by someone else.

Agree, so much! I think of moments in season 1 like where Cordelia tries to pass on the visions in "Parting Gifts" so she kisses him and both Cordelia and Angel are like, "I didn't feel anything, this is weird." and another time in season 1 where she hugs him and he barely reciprocates. But then in "Blood Money" Angel brings some of Cordelia's clothes to the shelter:

Angel: A friend left her clothes at my place. I won't be seeing her anytime soon, so I figured...
Anne: Girlfriend?
Angel: God, no.

This moment in particular really strikes me because at this point, the show really should've been building up to what they wanted to do with Angel and Cordelia in the next season. It's very clear to me that the idea to pair them together was a sudden and poorly thought out decision.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Agree, so much! I think of moments in season 1 like where Cordelia tries to pass on the visions in "Parting Gifts" so she kisses him and both Cordelia and Angel are like, "I didn't feel anything, this is weird." and another time in season 1 where she hugs him and he barely reciprocates. But then in "Blood Money" Angel brings some of Cordelia's clothes to the shelter:

Angel: A friend left her clothes at my place. I won't be seeing her anytime soon, so I figured...
Anne: Girlfriend?
Angel: God, no.

This moment in particular really strikes me because at this point, the show really should've been building up to what they wanted to do with Angel and Cordelia in the next season. It's very clear to me that the idea to pair them together was a sudden and poorly thought out decision.

Its funny because years ago I was on a forum arguing this very thing with some Cangel fans and they told me that this was Angel in denial of his feelings. So... you know head canons for everything.

 

[RomanticSoul]

It's very clear to me that the idea to pair them together was a sudden and poorly thought out decision.

Well, yeah. The network demanded a love interest for Angel for S3 and Greenwalt was the big Cangel shipper. There you go.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Well, yeah. The network demanded a love interest for Angel for S3 and Greenwalt was the big Cangel shipper. There you go.

Idk that Greenwalt was a Cangel shipper as much as he was just a big Cordy fan. He gave great Cordy pre AtS season 3. I think he believed in Angel and Cordy's bond but if I was a betting person I think the networks made the writers tip the scale in the romantic direction and then they all had to sell it. Thus the Cangel quotes you got when the Ship was sailing...

 

[NileQT87]

Neither Tim Minear (he was the Dangel guy) or David Boreanaz (who said he didn't understand it) liked Cangel. Both have said as much.

Charisma Carpenter likes Cangel, but I think it has a lot to do with the fact that she really likes David and it was the highlight of the relationships she was given on the shows. She also spent far more time on both shows with David in comparison to Nick or Glenn.

The weird thing is, for an actress as beautiful as Charisma, she really struggles to have romantic chemistry with anyone (the dramatic kind of romantic chemistry, not the comedic foils kind). Her chops are a bit limited on the dramatic side (she's much more confident as a comedic actress), so that is part of it. She did step up the game a lot for You're Welcome, but it was too little, too late. And I think there was so many behind-the-scenes emotions for her personally there that she finally managed to bring some of that out in a more genuine way. That Vision Thing was one of her better performances as well. And again, one where she was able to get to a more vulnerable state. She just struggles in most of the Cangel 'romantic' scenes to get to anything vulnerable or dramatic. She does have such scenes, even with Angel, however, that are purely platonic. Most of these good dramatic performances from her are ones where Angel is protecting Cordy because she's hurt or doubting herself.

David Boreanaz actually has tons of chemistry with the likes of Sarah Michelle Gellar, Julie Benz and Eliza Dushku. Charisma Carpenter just struggles with it with most of her on-screen partners in general. Glenn Quinn was perhaps the closest to romantic chemistry for her, but he had too many problems to remain on the show.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Idk that Greenwalt was a Cangel shipper as much as he was just a big Cordy fan. He gave great Cordy pre AtS season 3. I think he believed in Angel and Cordy's bond but if I was a betting person I think the networks made the writers tip the scale in the romantic direction and then they all had to sell it. Thus the Cangel quotes you got when the Ship was sailing...

I'm pretty sure Cangel was his decision. Because Whedon wasn't a Cangel fan either. There are subtle hints in his episodes (even Waiting In The Wings) that show he's not into it.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I'm pretty sure Cangel was his decision. Because Whedon wasn't a Cangel fan either. There are subtle hints in his episodes (even Waiting In The Wings) that show he's not into it.

Well now you gotta tell me what you mean don't leave me hanging!
 

David Boreanaz (who said he didn't understand it) liked Cangel.

Didn’t DB say some proCangel stuff while it was happening. Something like Cordy is what Angel needs right now? I think he went back and forth a bit after Season 4 he was quoted as saying Buffy was Angel’s true love or something along those lines I think when he is talking about the Awakening dream. I’m sure I’m screwing up these quotes lol. Y’all feel free to find them.

 

[NileQT87]

David Boreanaz said that he never understood Cangel. This was after it occurred. He's been firmly Bangel whenever he has said anything about the franchise ever since. When in the midst of it, I think he did promote the storyline, but he's been clear that Bangel is his preference.

IMO, the best "Cangel" moments are the ones where Angel is more like a father to Cordy. I love paternal Angel. He has a wonderful fatherly streak with most of the characters (well before becoming a father). David has a natural ability to project that, even when he was sometimes younger than the actors he was acting paternal around (James and Juliet included)!

Although his chemistry with Sarah Michelle Gellar is much more of the tender romantic variety, Angel also had some amazing "paternal" moments with Buffy, too, such as the ones where he's helping her with her father issues, correcting her gently or telling her about why they fight. Buffy is often searching for surrogate paternal figures and Angel does tend to be one of them. But then again, Angel is that way with nearly everyone. The whole Fang Gang (also Faith) also was full of characters whom he was standing in as a father for, because they lacked parents. Sometimes a big brother vibe, but the fatherly one was often there.

 

[BuffyBot22]

David Boreanaz said that he never understood Cangel. This was after it occurred. He's been firmly Bangel whenever he has said anything about the franchise ever since. When in the midst of it, I think he did promote the storyline, but he's been clear that Bangel is his preference.

IMO, the best "Cangel" moments are the ones where Angel is more like a father to Cordy. I love paternal Angel. He has a wonderful fatherly streak with most of the characters (well before becoming a father). David has a natural ability to project that, even when he was sometimes younger than the actors he was acting paternal around (James and Juliet included)!

Although his chemistry with Sarah Michelle Gellar is much more of the tender romantic variety, Angel also had some amazing "paternal" moments with Buffy, too, such as the ones where he's helping her with her father issues, correcting her gently or telling her about why they fight. Buffy is often searching for surrogate paternal figures and Angel does tend to be one of them. But then again, Angel is that way with nearly everyone. The whole Fang Gang (also Faith) also was full of characters whom he was standing in as a father for, because they lacked parents. Sometimes a big brother vibe, but the fatherly one was often there.

I feel like he does this because he had such a terrible, unsupporting, disapproving father. If his father had stopped being so judgmental and instead took the time to help Liam, maybe Liam would have turned out a better person. Maybe Liam wouldn't have been drunk in that ally vulnerable Darla and then turned into the most evil vampire that ever existed.
I think this is why he is so paternal with a lot of characters, especially ones that are troubled and need guidance to get their life back on track.