Spoiler! Bangel in Season 8 *Spoilers in this thread*

[InsaneMystic]

You know what I thought today... It occurred to me how hypocritical Angel's Twilight actions come across if you see them against the Jasmine arc of AtS S4 (you know I'm one of the few who loved that one, right?).

I've always thought that AI was the bad guys there... and now in the light of Twilight's actions, I'm double done with the "poo poo, free will is supreme, eating a handful of people for the happiness of billions is bad, poo poo" justification of it. In light of this, I'm fine with Angel getting dusted for stopping world peace alone; that makes him a true Big Bad outshadowing in vileness most other BBs we've seen. Because, lets face it. Noone can look at Twilight's actions and justifications and tell me he was disapproving of Jaz' methods, right?

I don't see even Joss Whedon bringing Angel out of this arc as anything else than a manipulative liar and self-righteous hypocrite who should have been put to the stake years ago. Buffy may be redeemable (girl has a history of mental problems, and "loving" Angel is part of that), but Angel? No. Way.

 

[Tranquillity]

Yes this does seem to be gearing up into a Destiny vs Free Will type situation. Twangel has always been Team Destiny (Destiny's Bitch, a Puppet) but Buffy less so; Yes, Destiny and Fate have always played a big part in her life (I mean, she is the Chosen one and all that) but she does Destiny her way. So I'm kinda interested to see how this goes... Free Will generally wins in the BVerse

 

[AndrewCrossett]

If Joss intends to go the route of justifying Angel's actions by the logic of "kill a few to save many more," then he needs to honestly show us the dark side of that by having someone we really care about be among the "acceptable losses."

He needs to kill off Xander, or Willow, or Giles, or Faith... permanently... and then see how sound and logical it all seems then.

It's a cop-out to only have faceless cannon-fodder Slayers suffering the consequences of this decision. Lives are lives. Pain isn't more acceptable just because it's somebody else's.

 

[white avenger]

For Angel's sake, I hope that there is going to be a revelation that he hasn't been acting of his own free will, but is under the influence of something at least as powerful as the First Evil, otherwise I can't think of a single excuse that would justify what he's been doing. But just as strongly as I believe that, I also know that there will be some reason given to justify everything that he has done so far and is likely to do anytime in the future. Anya accused Spike of having a "Get out of jail free" card in Season 7, but, in reality, there are only two of those in existence in the Buffyverse. Buffy herself has one, and Angel has the other. (When you have a series named after you, you're pretty much immortal unless the title gets an "In Memory Of..." attached to the front of it.)

 

[Krj2501]

He needs to kill off Xander, or Willow, or Giles, or Faith... permanently... and then see how sound and logical it all seems then.

I highly doubt that it will be Willow. Remember that Willow is suppose to go Dark/Evil again, so Buffy ends up killing her in the future.

Personally - if Joss must kill a main character from Season 8 - I vote for either Andrew or Satsu, or even both. These would make it personal without killing of the major fan favorites Xander, Faith, Giles, Dawn or Willow.

Of course - on the other hand if it's just Angel's describing what would have happened had he not became Twilight - then why not go for the grand slam. And have Angel describe how Xander, Faith, Giles, Dawn, Andrew & Satsu as well as the other slayers would have all died.

 

[racheltng]

And on the happy side, I was just chanting, "kiss! kiss! kiss!" for the last few pages (I knew they going to kiss ahead of time). Yes, I hope Angel has a better argument than "I didn't kill anyone," but in the meantime, I happy to see them have a moment of happiness (though not perfect happiness, of course). Angel actually got me with that line, "Don't you want to be happy?" And the look on Buffy's face - oh. *melts*

 

[Krj2501]

Yeah - the more I read this issue - the more hope I have that Joss & Company are going to be true to Buffy & Angel

 

[InsaneMystic]

I'm farther away from understanding how you Bangel shippers tick than ever before. *shudders*

 

[Krj2501]

It's simple hope spring eternal 😉

Actually there's nothing simple about Buffy & Angel's relationship. The simpliest way to explain is to tell someone to read Romeo & Juliet, or for those under college read the entire Twilight saga (Twilight to Breaking Dawn) then you might begin to grasp the complexity & intensity of Buffy & Angel's relationship.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I don't read the comics, yet! I sure will when I order them this summer, but I've read a short summary for it and I can see some of the people are disapointed and sad about Buffy's actions and reaction about who Twillight is. Me? Well, it's always going to be about Buffy, what is best for her. But if she ends up with Angel, well it couldn't be better. Fingers crossed, guys 😀

 

[Kana]

I'm just glad I wasn't a Bangel before I read issue #33. Now the main problem is my beloved Angel...

 

[Krj2501]

Personally - I'm starting to the the whole Twilight/Angel is the Big Bad - has been nothing but a red herring. But then that brings the question - who actually is the Big Bad.

Remember - in Issue 10 "Anywhere by Here" Buffy is told that she will be betrayed and it will be done by a person - who is the closest, and it will also be the most unexpected form of betrayal.

Now since - Angel/Twilight is the "Big Bad" of the Season - to this point - he would be the most obvious choice. But as we all know Joss - almost never goes with the obvious choice - which would eliminate Angel.

We already know that Willow will turn dark/evil again at some future point. But that doesn't mean that it has to happen in this season. More importantly - Buffy knows that Willow will go dark again at some point - so a betrayal by her wouldn't entirely be unexpected.

But then there's Giles who has been keeping a huge secret from Buffy & Faith - which we just found out about in the last issue. So right now - I would say the chances are good that he might be the one to ultimately betray Buffy.

 

[InsaneMystic]

But then there's Giles who has been keeping a huge secret from Buffy & Faith - which we just found out about in the last issue. So right now - I would say the chances are good that he might be the one to ultimately betray Buffy.

Maybe he'll betray Buffy by killing Angel off in her face right when she's all bimbo-eyed loveydovey with him. (Yes, I've by now grown fond of any theory that leaves a nifty pile of ash in Glowy Forehead Guy's place. :hehe: )

 

[white avenger]

I can't see how they can possibly bail Angel out of this mess unless he is either possessed by a more powerful spirit, the way that Spike was in Season 7. Otherwise, he, whether willingly or unwillingly, allowed hundreds of young girls, not to mention his own soldiers, to die without trying to prevent it or warn Buffy or any of the others. That makes him at the very least an accessory, and at the worst a mass murderer. Either way, his actions simply aren't consistent with someone who considers himself a hero and a champion.

And now, whatever the actual outcome of this mess turns out to be, since it will be considered canon, it HAS to affect IDW's own Angel series eventually if they are to retain any shred of believability. Sometime within two or at the most three years in the IDW Angel's future, this situation will have to be addressed in some way, almost certainly with considerably more background that Season 8 has given us.

 

[citiegal17]

I can't see how they can possibly bail Angel out of this mess unless he is either possessed by a more powerful spirit, the way that Spike was in Season 7. Otherwise, he, whether willingly or unwillingly, allowed hundreds of young girls, not to mention his own soldiers, to die without trying to prevent it or warn Buffy or any of the others. That makes him at the very least an accessory, and at the worst a mass murderer. Either way, his actions simply aren't consistent with someone who considers himself a hero and a champion.

And now, whatever the actual outcome of this mess turns out to be, since it will be considered canon, it HAS to affect IDW's own Angel series eventually if they are to retain any shred of believability. Sometime within two or at the most three years in the IDW Angel's future, this situation will have to be addressed in some way, almost certainly with considerably more background that Season 8 has given us.

I agree but Angel being in anyway a champion is already gone whether or not he was even possesed in season 8. He is already a character that could be defined as a cold blooded killer, and if they still want to have any respect as story tellers they'll tell it like it is and not gloss over it like they did in Angel season 5. The only way I think they could continue to sell his comics is to show his journey towards becoming twilight.

 

[racheltng]

I've been wondering if the negative reaction I'm reading on this board in response to the Angel reveal is because a lot of people are reading this issue through Spuffy glasses. Now, I know there are many non-shippers who read the comics and who also think Buffy has a lot to answer for for kissing Angel/Twilight. But I can't help but wonder if SPIKE had come out from under that mask if we wouldn't be hearing more praise and talk of destiny.

I know, on the other hand, I'm reading with Bangel glasses. But what I really want is for people to calm down and wait until the next issue to what unfolds, instead of just jumping all over Buffy.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I'm neither Bangel nor Spuffy, and my response has nothing to do with shipping issues of any kind.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

It's simple hope spring eternal 😉

Actually there's nothing simple about Buffy & Angel's relationship. The simpliest way to explain is to tell someone to read Romeo & Juliet, or for those under college read the entire Twilight saga (Twilight to Breaking Dawn) then you might begin to grasp the complexity & intensity of Buffy & Angel's relationship.

I'm sorry, no offense, but I don't think Angel and Buffy can be compared to Edward and Bella. The only similarity between the two couples is that there is a vampire and a human girl in both.

---------- Post added at 02:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------

I've been wondering if the negative reaction I'm reading on this board in response to the Angel reveal is because a lot of people are reading this issue through Spuffy glasses. Now, I know there are many non-shippers who read the comics and who also think Buffy has a lot to answer for for kissing Angel/Twilight. But I can't help but wonder if SPIKE had come out from under that mask if we wouldn't be hearing more praise and talk of destiny.

Ok, ok...I've said it before and I will say it again:

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SPUFFY. I don't even care about Spuffy right now, honestly. What I'm worried about is the decisions two of my favorite characters are making. These are not the characters we know and love. My negative opinion regarding what Angel has done and how he has explained it to Buffy has nothing to do with her prior relationship with Spike. Spike has no place in this. This is between Buffy and Angel.

you ask what would happen if Twilight had been Spike? Well, I can't speak for others, but I'd be devestated. If Buffy had kissed Spike and if Spike had gave her that all the BS that Angel did in #33...that'd be enough for me to give up Spuffy for good. Honestly. I would not be jumping up and down in glee if Spike had been Twilight. Whats happened is an abomination of what Bangel is and always has been; it's a mockery and it's absurd. And if Spuffy had been in it's place, I'd say the same thing.

I know, on the other hand, I'm reading with Bangel glasses. But what I really want is for people to calm down and wait until the next issue to what unfolds, instead of just jumping all over Buffy.

Well, at least you admit to your fandom glasses. As for me, I can't calm down, it's not that simple. I'm not jumping all over Buffy. Angel and Buffy are both responsible for their actions in this issue. Both are guilty.

I care about these characters. More then I should, probably. I care about their evolution. To see Buffy and Angel like this...I can't stand it.

*sigh*

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Joan the Vampire Slayer agrees: Do you really want Bangel together under these circumstances, though?

Under these no, I only belive there is some kind of explenation for all that.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Just like Joan and Andrew, my hate of this story has nothing to do with shipping. If Spike ever starts killing people "because the greater good makes it necessary, and other people would kill them if I didn't", and went "ohh look, I'm spark- uh, glowing! it's destiny! fancy a shag?", you'd have one less Spuffy supporter on this board. A crap story stays a crap story, no matter who's the protagonist.

Oh, and didn't people react in shock and fear when the facecensored Twilight reveal pic got out and we thought it indeed would be Spike? We feared for his character journey just like we see Angel getting ruined right now.