Bangel/Spuffy Co-Existance

[white avenger]

Other than the fact that the debate is so much fun, why is there all of the controversy between the people who want Buffy to be with Angel and those who prefer to see her with Spike? Just about any Spuffy supporter agrees that there was a stage in the Slayer's life when she needed, relied on, and loved Angel. Why can't the Bangels see the same thing with Buffy and Spike?

(Okay, all of you adamant Bangels, it's your chance to state your case.)

Just to remind everyone what the original question was...

 

[sosa lola]

I have to say I'm leaning more towards Spuffy, even though I don't obsessively ship them. That doesn't say I hate Bangel, but I find Spike/Buffy more interesting.

 

[fly on the wall]

I have commented to various people recently, that I have always found this to be the other way round; the Spuffy fans are much more anti-Bangel than I am anti-Spuffy (I can only really speak for myself here as opposed to Bangel fans on the whole), but maybe both sides think that as we're all so good at being subjective! 😛

I have always said that, now I am older at least, I can appreciate the relationship that Spike and Buffy had on a friendship level. I actually enjoy watching their friendship on screen but their sexual/romantic relationship does nothing for me. It doesn't mean I dislike Spuffy or can't see that Buffy needed him, I just think it was more about friendship than love.

And after seeing Nix's post, I do have to agree to be honest. It's not that either side 'hates' the other relationship, we just get so wrapped up in defending our 'ship that we don't always tend to say much on the other 'ship in a positive light.

I'm pretty sure that on several occasions I have said how much I enjoy the Spuffy friendship and appreciate its place on the show. I would just like to see, and think that, Buffy and Angel will end up together in the end. The relationship meant more to me and was more about my ideas of love. But I don't diminish what Buffy and Spike had entirely, I just don't like it on a romantic level.

Pretty much exactly what I wanted to write. 🙂

I think Buffy and Spike, by S7, had a lovely friendship. And that is all. So yes, I completely believe that Buffy needed, relied on, and loved Spike. As a friend. As a companion. As someone she trusted and leaned on. But not as a lover, a boyfriend, a partner.

I just do not see romantic feelings there. I do not feel love between them. I see best friends, and I appreciate what that friendship meant to Buffy, but that is all.

 

[Flannen]

Joan, we could go and on and on like this until the end of time. I do have a few things to add though.

You say it you find it hard to believe that I 'just don't see it', regarding the 'love' in the same way I find it hard to believe you don't see any chemistry between Buffy and Angel. There's nothing we can do about that, its the same on either side.
I do see affection between them but its just friendly affection, to me. And I'm obviously not the only one! But it all just down to interpretation. You see one thing, I see another, or we don't see different things.

I can’t – I won’t – believe that Buffy is the kind of person who would lie about loving someone. I have more respect for her character than that. Even to “make him feel better” or because she felt he deserved it. (This is the argument I have heard and once believed.) Riley also “deserved” her love, but she never told him. Joss said in the commentary for “Chosen” that Buffy meant what she said to Spike. She did love him. It’s not really open to interpretation, if you believe that Joss should have the last say, like I do.

So, do you reconcile that? So you don’t believe she loved him, I get that. But what do you make of Buffy’s “I love you”? It happened, she said it, and it can’t be dismissed, even if you don’t believe her.

Well if I have to believe what Joss said, and she did mean, then he didn't portray that very well on screen for me, simple as. Everyone in the world could tell me that she meant it, but I did not, and still don't, get that from her. *shrugs*

I'm not saying Buffy would lie about loving someone, I just didn't believe her. For me it was forced and had the feeling of 'oh crumbs he's gonna die, better say it now or never' and it was rushed and therefore lacked conviction for me.

And despite the fact that we are friends, Joan, I have issue with you suggesting I go back and re-watch season seven, for a few reasons. 1) It suggests that you think I don't know the season as well as you because I don't see it the same way as you, kind if implying I've watched it wrong or something? 2) It also suggests I have to keep to re-watching the season in order to see the love between Spike and Buffy, but considering I've already seen it more times than I care to count, I can safely it doesn't have very much to do with how often I've watched the series. It didn't occur to me first, second or third time round, so I think its safe to say I'm not going to see it.

And WA, seeing as you bought the original question back up, I am shocked if you still think that only Bangel fans are guilty of refusing to accept the importance of a relationship or that you can't see that both Bangel and Spuffy fans are equally guilty of what you suggest. Is this still how you see it?

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I don't hate Spuffy fans. Why would I hate person only because he or she is Spuffy fan? When I first started watching Buffy I was 7, and I wasn't into Bangel, Briley and Spuffy thing. I watched that show because of her, and I was and am a huge SMG fan. Then when I was older, I watched Buffy all over again. From the begining, and everything they were on screen together I was so excited, I don't know why. Like all of that is happening to me. And Spuffy, it was ok when he was in love with her like in season 5, it was cute. But in season 6 it was disturbing for me, because I watched that show because of her, I could relate to her and for me that was sad. So I think people choose their favourite couple because they could relate to them, it's not because they are realist or dreamers. Bangel, oh they are forbiden. That is ironic, vampire and vampire slayer. At first it was. It was intersting, because we never saw something like that before. And I think I never cried more then when Angelus come, and she has kill Angel, and then I cried when he left. Then Briley come, and it was ok, at first normal couple, then it became boring, I was happy when he left. And then she died, and that thing with Spike. At first I was like ok, but we saw that before, vampire and slayer, it's not intersting. And then it became disgusting, and horrible, with no love. Someone saw something in that, I didn't. And I respect that. I saw something in Bangel, but many people didn't. But the last episode, when he came back, and they gave us hope someday Buffy and Angel could be together, I was so happy. And not just me. I belive Buffy was happy 🙂

 

[Bluebird]

I really have no feelings one way or the other about which is better. I loved both relationships for what they were, even if the Spuffy one is more unconventional, it was good to watch it play out. And the Bangel one was fun in that old-fashioned fairy tale kind of a way.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Spuffy is for realists, Bangel is for the romantics. The ones who believe in the long run, when all is said and done, that Buffy and Angel will find a way back to each other. Us Spuffies? We know Bangel is the stuff of fairy tales. Real life is rougher, more complex. There isn't always an answer or explanation for why people act the way they do.

I could've made a long, wordy post... but alternatively, I can just quote what you said. 😀

I don't mind Bangel in S2. It would've been epic if Angel hadn't come back after Becoming - but S3 ruined the ship for me forever. I hate romance... the only thing that redeems a romantic story is if it ends tragically and stays dead (like, Romeo and Juliet, or Tristan and Iseult). Sadly, Bangel never does. That ship just goes zombieing on and tries to gnaw at your brains. 😛

 

[Flannen]

I could've made a long, wordy post... but alternatively, I can just quote what you said. 😀

I don't mind Bangel in S2. It would've been epic if Angel hadn't come back after Becoming - but S3 ruined the ship for me forever. I hate romance... the only thing that redeems a romantic story is if it ends tragically and stays dead (like, Romeo and Juliet, or Tristan and Iseult). Sadly, Bangel never does. That ship just goes zombieing on and tries to gnaw at your brains. 😛

So, looking at that way, Spike and Buffy should never see each other again either? It's died and should stay dead. Otherwise it is going to become exactly what you dislike about Buffy/Angel, surely? If it hasn't already.

 

[Willow-Tree]

Joan, we could go and on and on like this until the end of time. I do have a few things to add though.

You say it you find it hard to believe that I 'just don't see it', regarding the 'love' in the same way I find it hard to believe you don't see any chemistry between Buffy and Angel. There's nothing we can do about that, its the same on either side.
I do see affection between them but its just friendly affection, to me. And I'm obviously not the only one! But it all just down to interpretation. You see one thing, I see another, or we don't see different things.

Friendly affection? They have slept together multiple times!

---------- Post added at 07:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 AM ----------

I could've made a long, wordy post... but alternatively, I can just quote what you said. 😀

I don't mind Bangel in S2. It would've been epic if Angel hadn't come back after Becoming - but S3 ruined the ship for me forever. I hate romance... the only thing that redeems a romantic story is if it ends tragically and stays dead (like, Romeo and Juliet, or Tristan and Iseult). Sadly, Bangel never does. That ship just goes zombieing on and tries to gnaw at your brains. 😛

Actually, Spike and Buffy spent a lot more time together, romantic or not, than Angel and Buffy did. And, while I too ship Spuffy, I find it odd that you are criticizing some things about Bangel, that Spuffy goes even further with.

 

[Flannen]

Willow-Tree agrees: Yes, I have. And in season seven, do you not remember the times Buffy has cuddled in a bed with Spike, just for the sense of comfort and love? SHE DID NOT DO THAT WITH WILLOW!

I think there's a reason for that! 😛

I remember that happening once...very likely to just be my memory? And you see, comfort and love, I just see comfort. I feel like a broken record here, but I have no issue with their scenes together, I just always found their relationship to be more about friendship and companionship in season seven, not romance or love. I'm never going to see it that way, because I just don't. I've watched, several times, every example I've been given, just they way the Spuffy fans have seen every Bangel example I've given and we're all still standing our ground, Bangels or Spuffys, which again only reiterates my point above that we are all as bad as each other and all play at the same game.

 

[Willow-Tree]

I think there's a reason for that! 😛

I remember that happening once...very likely to just be my memory? And you see, comfort and love, I just see comfort. I feel like a broken record here, but I have no issue with their scenes together, I just always found their relationship to be more about friendship and companionship in season seven, not romance or love. I'm never going to see it that way, because I just don't. I've watched, several times, every example I've been given, just they way the Spuffy fans have seen every Bangel example I've given and we're all still standing our ground, Bangels or Spuffys, which again only reiterates my point above that we are all as bad as each other and all play at the same game.

But it wasn't just a, "I'll lay beside you because you're my best friend" sort-of-cuddle. She was stroking his arm/hand, and pretty much laying on[i/] him. 😛

 

[fly on the wall]

Spuffy is for realists, Bangel is for the romantics. The ones who believe in the long run, when all is said and done, that Buffy and Angel will find a way back to each other. Us Spuffies? We know Bangel is the stuff of fairy tales. Real life is rougher, more complex. There isn't always an answer or explanation for why people act the way they do.

This might be getting off-topic again, but I just wanted to address this.

I can never understand what is unrealistic or "fairy-tale like" about Buffy and Angel's relationship. Whenever I hear those accusations, I just don't get it. Was it because Buffy was younger then? Because for such a young girl, she made huge, massive, grown-up decisions. She was NOT consumed by her love for Angel, as people are when they're being unrealistic, or as people in fairy tales are. She set aside her feelings for him time and time again in order to save the world. She killed him in order to save the world. And Angel? He left her, rather than hurt her. He put her well being above his own, he went on to do great things for the world. I don't think their love was a fairy tale love, or that I am somehow jaded or naive for believing in it the way I do. I believe in their love because it transformed both of them. They became better people because of this relationship. Their love transcended the three years or whatever that they were together; it went beyond that, it meant so much more than that. And yet, it still retained its realness. Angel could have stayed in Sunnydale, he could have refused to give up no matter what that would mean for Buffy's sake. Buffy could have packed up and moved to L.A. Angel could have chosen to be human in S1 of Angel, so that he could be with Buffy. Buffy could have let the world end rather than kill the person she loved. They could have said, "To hell with all of you, we're gonna be together!" and THEN it would have been a fairy tale. THEN it would have been unrealistic.

I think Buffy/Angel WAS rough and complex and utterly real. I don't see a fairy tale when I look at them. I see deep trust and understanding and a bigger agenda, and I also see (I don't assume, I don't hope, but I SEE) that they will find a way back to each other. I think they compliment each other in a way that no other Buffy relationship we've seen has. I think they have a bond deeper and different than any bond Buffy has with anyone.

All of that being said, I still don't discredit Spike and Buffy. That relationship was important too. As I said, it's clear that Buffy needed, relied on, and loved him...it's the nature of that love that I contest. I don't think Buffy would "lie" about loving someone, and I do not think she lied when she said it to Spike. She loved him, wholly and completely. As a friend.

 

[Nix]

I think it just proves my post, no one side is better or worse than the other, both willing to debate with no answer, other than to agree to disagree.

 

[InsaneMystic]

So, looking at that way, Spike and Buffy should never see each other again either? It's died and should stay dead. Otherwise it is going to become exactly what you dislike about Buffy/Angel, surely? If it hasn't already.

Nope, because Spuffy wasn't about romance, it was about love. Humongous difference. 😉
While Spuffy did have a romantic part at the very start, it was all on Spike's side, was as pathetic as romance always is, and thankfully died as early as in S5 ("Intervention" certainly is the turning point there) before the real part of the ship ever started. It has remained peacefully dead ever since, and I don't see how a meetup between Spike & Buffy would reanimate it. The only way Spuffy Reloaded would get me moaning with annoyance would be if they went all happy ever after with a house, a car, two (adopted) kids, and a dog - which, frankly, I don't see happening any time soon, not only because it's a very non-Jossverse thing to happen, but more because it would be lightyears out of character for both Spike and Buffy who are way too mature for it to go "live the illusion of happy couple normalcy".

Actually, Spike and Buffy spent a lot more time together, romantic or not, than Angel and Buffy did. And, while I too ship Spuffy, I find it odd that you are criticizing some things about Bangel, that Spuffy goes even further with.

"Romantic or not"? I don't see how you can lump it together like that. ^^ It's not the quantity of time that matters, it's the quality... and with the end of "Intervention" plus the whole of S7, Spuffy has quality in spades that, IMO at least, Bangel never had a chance of even getting close to with its "Woe Is Me" star-crossed romanticism.

The only thing that makes the Bangel romance interesting is the split personality of Angel vs. Angelus (I freely admit this is a HUGE redeeming factor, though - it's what makes S2 my fave season, after all 😉 ); in contrast to that, there's no part of Spuffy that isn't fascinating - because it is a dynamic and developing love story, in contrast to a static romance that isn't going anywhere.


What it all boils down to - Spuffy fits the concept of "friendship with benefits" (and damn hard-earned friendship, at that!) which is pretty close to my definition of "true love". Bangel, in contrast, was never about being friends - that's what Spike so artfully analyzed in "Lover's Walk". It's a hollow fantasy that has neither the friendship nor the benefits; it lacks the maturity and reality that (S7) Spuffy has at its foundation, it's a fairyland castle built on sand... and that's a setting for romance, not love.

 

[Willow-Tree]

Nope, because Spuffy wasn't about romance, it was about love. Humongous difference. 😉
While Spuffy did have a romantic part at the very start, it was all on Spike's side, was as pathetic as romance always is, and thankfully died as early as in S5 ("Intervention" certainly is the turning point there) before the real part of the ship ever started. It has remained peacefully dead ever since, and I don't see how a meetup between Spike & Buffy would reanimate it. The only way Spuffy Reloaded would get me moaning with annoyance would be if they went all happy ever after with a house, a car, two (adopted) kids, and a dog - which, frankly, I don't see happening any time soon, not only because it's a very non-Jossverse thing to happen, but more because it would be lightyears out of character for both Spike and Buffy who are way too mature for it to go "live the illusion of happy couple normalcy".



"Romantic or not"? I don't see how you can lump it together like that. ^^ It's not the quantity of time that matters, it's the quality... and with the end of "Intervention" plus the whole of S7, Spuffy has quality in spades that, IMO at least, Bangel never had a chance of even getting close to with its "Woe Is Me" star-crossed romanticism.

The only thing that makes the Bangel romance interesting is the split personality of Angel vs. Angelus (I freely admit this is a HUGE redeeming factor, though - it's what makes S2 my fave season, after all 😉 ); in contrast to that, there's no part of Spuffy that isn't fascinating - because it is a dynamic and developing love story, in contrast to a static romance that isn't going anywhere.


What it all boils down to - Spuffy fits the concept of "friendship with benefits" (and damn hard-earned friendship, at that!) which is pretty close to my definition of "true love". Bangel, in contrast, was never about being friends - that's what Spike so artfully analyzed in "Lover's Walk". It's a hollow fantasy that has neither the friendship nor the benefits; it lacks the maturity and reality that (S7) Spuffy has at its foundation, it's a fairyland castle built on sand... and that's a setting for romance, not love.

I do agree with this. There were barely any scenes of Buffy and Angel actually talking about real stuff (not their ~love~ for each other.)

 

[MinwaraYana]

Like Nix said, there's no answer about which 'ship is better.

I think Bangel and Spuffy are different. That's why most of people like one and dislike the other.
I have no problem with both of them. I like Bangel more just because it relates to me more. Maybe it's because Angel shaves his armhair while Spike doesn't.

 

[Flannen]

This is really beginning to resemble pulling teeth so I think I'm pretty much done here.

At the end of the day its all down to opinion and interpretation and I just don't think that this is even remotely about the OP any more, if it ever was.

I personally have acknowledged as far I can, an acceptance and acknowledgement of the place and importance of Spike and Buffy's relationship and have tried to demonstrate that Bangel is much more than a idealist's dream and a fairytale, but its getting way too nit-picky now, and is totally distracting me from my work! lol

I don't really have anything else to add that is what I've already said in another way!

🙂

 

[Tranquillity]

white avenger said:

Other than the fact that the debate is so much fun, why is there all of the controversy between the people who want Buffy to be with Angel and those who prefer to see her with Spike? Just about any Spuffy supporter agrees that there was a stage in the Slayer's life when she needed, relied on, and loved Angel. Why can't the Bangels see the same thing with Buffy and Spike?

I do think there is a element of one side being threatened by the other (as Joan suggested earlier.) I think we get so attached to our ships that we won't read the text in any way that doesn't suit our ship. I think both camps do this if they are honest with themselves. If Bangel's say they see no love between Spike and Buffy then it is because they don't want to see it. If Spuffy's say there is not a hint of a promise for a future with Angel in the cookie dough speech then they are deliberately not listening.

The thing is, if we look at the latest Joss-written textual evidence that includes Angel/Buffy/Spike you can draw no other conclusion than she loves them both in a very similar way. if she loves Spike 'as a friend' then this is how she now sees Angel too and if she loves Angel in a romantic sense then this is how she feels about Spike too.
Check out "Always Darkest" and you'll see it for yourself. Speaking for myself, I can live with that.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

white avenger said:


I do think there is a element of one side being threatened by the other (as Joan suggested earlier.) I think we get so attached to our ships that we won't read the text in any way that doesn't suit our ship. I think both camps do this if they are honest with themselves. If Bangel's say they see no love between Spike and Buffy then it is because they don't want to see it. If Spuffy's say there is not a hint of a promise for a future with Angel in the cookie dough speech then they are deliberately not listening.

The thing is, if we look at the latest Joss-written textual evidence that includes Angel/Buffy/Spike you can draw no other conclusion than she loves them both in a very similar way. if she loves Spike 'as a friend' then this is how she now sees Angel too and if she loves Angel in a romantic sense then this is how she feels about Spike too.
Check out "Always Darkest" and you'll see it for yourself. Speaking for myself, I can live with that.

I think you're right.

I believe that all fiction is up to interpretation. I'm big on reader response. I do take what the writers say into consideration, but at the end of the day, we all are going to create meaning out of something in the way that suits us. Again, this is what I love so much about this world Joss has created. We all read into it differently, and that's awesome! This is why people will be talking about this show for many more years. Because it's a cult show and an icon of popular culture.

We are all drawn to things for different reasons. I think we can all agree that there were some great points brought up by all in this thread.

Will the Spuffies always stand their ground that they're meant to be together, that their connnection transends friendship? Yes. Will the Bangels always believe Buffy's future lies with Angel? Yes.

And you know what? I'm glad. And you know why? What WA said at the very beginning of this thread; arguing it is so much fun! And at the end of the day, that's why we're all here, right?

 

[white avenger]

I think that we could settle the whole matter in a civilized fashion. Each side pick 10 members, and we can all meet at a mutually agreed upon location and fight it out with paint ball guns. The losers have to admit that the winers' ship is the only true relationship.

Any takers? Put your paint balls where your mouths are...no, wait, that sounds disgusting. How about, Put up or shut up?