Bangel vs. Spuffy Round 2

[StarSlayer]

HAHA and then James said "Take that, Angel!"
Or was it from another part of the Paleyfest...?

LOL, yes but it was referring to another part. The Spuffy scene from "Smashed" was voted #1 on a list of the top best loves scenes. SMG pointed it out, and she said to James, "It was you and me by the way." And he's like. "Oh really? Take that Angel!" He said it in like a jokingly kind of way, but it was still hilarious 😀

 

[Chosen Enemy]

LOL, yes but it was referring to another part. The Spuffy scene from "Smashed" was voted #1 on a list of the top best loves scenes. SMG pointed it out, and she said to James, "It was you and me by the way." And he's like. "Oh really? Take that Angel!" He said it in like a jokingly kind of way, but it was still hilarious 😀

Oh right!! And he's a Bangel shipper (go figure 😀)
I don't really like Michelle T., but the fact that she's probably a Spuffy, gives her some positive points in my book.

---------- Post added at 02:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------

There's a part of me that will always believe that Angel is Buffy's true love. That there will be a piece of her heart that will always be with him for the rest of her life.
Sarah Michelle Gellar

Take that with a grain of salt because none of the people who post these quotes ever link to a legitimate source. Although it doesn't matter to me whether SMG prefers either ship. Actors portray characters; and it's what the character thinks that matters.

Oh and I also found this one...just so my Spuffies don't cry.



The thing about Buffy and Spike is they understand each other on a level that nobody else understands [them].
Sarah Michelle Gellar

So I'd say at best; she understands the "star crossed lovers" aspect of Bangel; while recognizing the mature emotional depth of Spuffy.

I think she was also affected by the fact that she was really close to both, James and David in real life.

 

[StarSlayer]

Litheran agrees: "I'm so glad he's coming back," says Gellar of actor James Marsters. "I'm president of his fan club." (Entertainment Weekly, Oct.1999)

Lol, love that one too 😀 There was another one, around the time he came on the show in s2, where she told Joss that he needed to keep James around, or someone else might get him. I thought that was cool too.

 

[prophecygrrl]

What I always found interesting though is the fact that SMG herself was a HUGE Bangel shipper (part of why I love that girl so much, hehe), so I found myself wondering if that has in any way influenced her portrayal of Season 7 Buffy? Maybe part of the ambiguity of Spuffy wasn't even the writers' intention (not to that extent anyway) but the fact that SMG was holding back?

A huge Bangel shipper? I've seen quotes from her favoring Bangel back in the early seasons of the show when, well, Bangel was literally the only relationship for Buffy at that point. But I've also seen quotes from her favoring Buffy/Xander and a few for Spuffy. I've actually heard that in Season 7, SMG pushed hard for some Bander...

but no, I don't think that had an effect on her performance at all. She's also made it clear that she did not like season six. But even then, with all the things they made her do in that season (cause IMO, even if it's with James Marsters, those sex scenes must have been awkward to film in front of everyone 😉) she did a phenomenonal (sp?) job. She's the consummate professional, and I believe that the ambiguity was 100% intentional on the writers' part. We look at it with different eyes now after seeing the series in its entirety, but I would imagine that watching it for the first time when it was on the air, it just wouldn't have felt right to put them in a clearly defined relationship (or non-relationship) after all the angsty darkness of Season Six. IDK if this makes sense exactly...? It just wouldn't have fit with the pacing and placement of everything.

---------- Post added at 11:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 PM ----------

Lol I typically don't trust actors and their shipping tendencies. They're pretty much all over the place depending on who they're talking to. Or the method actors (looking at you, Juliet Landau and James Marsters!) get super into their characters and start creating their own canon.

Doesn't mean I don't appreciate a good Spuffy quote, no matter who it's from! 😀

 

[StarSlayer]

but no, I don't think that had an effect on her performance at all. She's also made it clear that she did not like season six. But even then, with all the things they made her do in that season (cause IMO, even if it's with James Marsters, those sex scenes must have been awkward to film in front of everyone 😉) she did a phenomenonal (sp?) job. She's the consummate professional

One of the reasons I thought SMG didn't like s6 was because she felt by the middle of the season, she lost the hero inside Buffy. I think Joss agreed and they went from there. I'm sure filing sex scenes was awkward but based on dallies and SMG's work in movies (she had some sexy scenes in Cruel Intentions), she's a professional. She knows those kind of scenes can come with the job.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[nmcil12]

I agree that Angel himself was not innocent. He had blood on his hands from all the crimes he did as Angelus. However, his love for Buffy made him want to change, to be a better person. Unlike Spike, Angel fell in love with Buffy when he had a soul. He probably would have wasted away in NYC if he didn't see and fall in love with Buffy. So, in that sense, their love is pure and innocent IMO. It was free of any other evil motive.

Based on that, I disagree that there was an agenda for both Buffy and Angel. Angel didn't want to get close to Buffy in order to get information and leave, or to ultimately deceive her. He simply wanted to help and protect her after falling in love with her. It's similar with Buffy. After she found out he was a vampire and did horrible things pre-soul, she still had feelings for him and wanted to be with him.

(Someone please stop me from defending Bangel, lol!) 🙂

And I ask again, not to be argumentative, but because I firmly believe that the question is of extreme importance - Is Angel possible without Angelus? Would there be a great need for Angel to have been attracted and have such a strong emotional need for Buffy, without the direct connection of his Angelus life?

And a "first love" has absolutely nothing that automatically qualifies it as "pure" or "innocent" Angel's reasons for wanting to help Buffy are not motivated out of love, that is certainly not the case when he is pushed into that direction from Whistler. His motivation, IMO, is directly connected to his life as Angelus and utterly desperate circumstances of his current life.

I do not imply that the romantic side of their relationship did not develop beyond his initial motivation - but his first reasons to be involved in her life were not out of a "love" perspective.

 

[prophecygrrl]

One of the reasons I thought SMG didn't like s6 was because she felt by the middle of the season, she lost the hero inside Buffy. I think Joss agreed and they went from there. I'm sure filing sex scenes was awkward but based on dallies and SMG's work in movies (she had some sexy scenes in Cruel Intentions), she's a professional. She knows those kind of scenes can come with the job.
Posted via Mobile Device

That's true. I wasn't talking about SMG and S6 from a shipping perspective though. I just meant that even if she doesn't like how the story is going, she wouldn't let that get in the way of her work. The Spuffy sex scenes thing was really just a side comment lol 🙂.

 

[nmcil12]

I agree that Angel himself was not innocent. He had blood on his hands from all the crimes he did as Angelus. However, his love for Buffy made him want to change, to be a better person. Unlike Spike, Angel fell in love with Buffy when he had a soul. He probably would have wasted away in NYC if he didn't see and fall in love with Buffy. So, in that sense, their love is pure and innocent IMO. It was free of any other evil motive.

Based on that, I disagree that there was an agenda for both Buffy and Angel. Angel didn't want to get close to Buffy in order to get information and leave, or to ultimately deceive her. He simply wanted to help and protect her after falling in love with her. It's similar with Buffy. After she found out he was a vampire and did horrible things pre-soul, she still had feelings for him and wanted to be with him.

(Someone please stop me from defending Bangel, lol!) 🙂

When I speak of "needs" or "agendas" my reference is to Angel's psychological needs - all those inner demons that he has to struggle with all his life and that, IMO, are a very important part of his emotional need to be connected with her.

Unfortunately for our discussion, I don't see Angel at all in the "innocent" model - everything in his life is so intimately connected to Angelus, his entire existence, from how I see the character, cannot be separated into Soul Angel and Soulless Angelus.

Take, what I think to be his greatest moment of the entire series, Angel at the height of his heroic/champion status - his trials to save Darla's life. Why is he so desperate to save Darla? It's because this is his direct link to their vampire lives, to absolve himself in a great cleansing of Angelus. Think of the metaphor and his "journey of redemption." Angel can sacrifice his life, kill Angelus and also kill Darla the vampire. None of this is separated into Angel vs Angelus - the Angel life is a direct growth of Angelus.

---------- Post added at 03:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:38 PM ----------

Well didn't Dru know that Spike had a thing for Buffy even before Spike knew it? I don't remember the specific episode, but I remember Spike saying something about Dru knowing that he cared and thats why her couldn't kill her...so Dru left him. So I think its fair to say that both men had feelings for Buffy before they really knew her. Angel watched Buffy in early seasons and Spike watched her in the later seasons (maybe he didnt watch her sleep but he was lurking outside her house a lot).

I never though either relationship started with complete honesty.

I am a Bangel and I think that BOTH relationships had selfish moments. It took both men time to see that not being with her was best for her. Angel worked that out in BTV season 3 and Spike worked that out in Angel season 5.

---------- Post added at 01:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------




Maybe Buffy had Spike fight alongside her in "Chosen" because she could stand the possibility of seeing Angel die again?

You don't do your arguments for Pure & Innocent love at all with this line of thinking - this takes us back to the single most reason that Buffy's love for him is seen as destructive - the Sacrifice of Faith's life, her conscious decision to exchange one life for another.

---------- Post added at 03:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 PM ----------

If you're going to place any credence on what the writers knew when they had Spike wear the amulet instead of Angel, the writers also knew, though we didn't (well, actually we did, because by the time that "Chosen" aired, the news was already out that Spike would be moving over to Angel's show the next season) that the whole reason that Angel was given the amulet in the first place was so that HE, not Spike, Faith, or Buffy, would wear the amulet into the hellmouth, thus becoming bound to W&H the way that Spike was when he first came back.

To me, the main reason that Buffy sent Angel back to LA had no more to do with actual romantic feelings than it did with that lame "second front" crap (Really, now, just how effective a fighting force would Angel be able to gather and prepare to fight off an army of ubervamps and Bringers in the few days that he would have had to do it?) The truth of the matter, the tactical reason to send Angel away was quite simple. You don't put two pit bulldogs together and expect them not to spend as much time fighting each other as the enemy, and that's exactly what Angel and Spike were at that time. Bringing Angel into the fight at that time would have been just too disruptive to an already volatile situation. The Scoobies/Potentials mutiny was barely settled, and any more disruptions at that point would have done far more harm than good. (Is there anyone here who has the slightest doubt that Giles would go into apoplexy, and Xander would pitch a running duck fit if Buffy brought ANOTHER vampire ex-boyfriend into the fight?)

So, the Spuffies believe that Buffy sent Angel away so that she could play snuggle puppy with Spike for a few more uninterrupted nights, and the Bangels believe she gave the amulet to Spike to wear because she could bear losing him more easily than seeing Angel die again. Almost certainly, the more logical explanation was that at that moment, she was in her General Buffy persona, and her decision was made purely for tactical reasons. The snuggle puppy thing with Spike was just a bonus.

This same "story & business needs" in reverse are playing out in Buffy Season 8 - only this time it is Spike who is being used an interest character for the service of the fanbase and to help set-up Season 9.

 

[StarSlayer]

And I ask again, not to be argumentative, but because I firmly believe that the question is of extreme importance - Is Angel possible without Angelus? Would there be a great need for Angel to have been attracted and have such a strong emotional need for Buffy, without the direct connection of his Angelus life?

I don't think Angel is possible without Angelus. The point of Angel and his work (especially on his own show) was to redeem himself for his past crimes, although they were technically committed when he had no soul (when he was Angelus). But, I think Angel's connection to Buffy is an entirely different inquiry, one I'll have to think about some more.

And a "first love" has absolutely nothing that automatically qualifies it as "pure" or "innocent" Angel's reasons for wanting to help Buffy are not motivated out of love, that is certainly not the case when he is pushed into that direction from Whistler. His motivation, IMO, is directly connected to his life as Angelus and utterly desperate circumstances of his current life.

I do not imply that the romantic side of their relationship did not develop beyond his initial motivation - but his first reasons to be involved in her life were not out of a "love" perspective.

Angel said that when he first saw Buffy at her old high school in LA, he loved her because he saw her heart. As a result of this love, he wanted to protect her (and warm her heart with his own, as he said). Therefore, based on his initial love for Buffy, Angel was then motivated to change and ultimately, to try and redeem himself for his crimes as Angelus. I also still stand by my thoughts about their love being pure. SMG even said once that the relationship Buffy and Angel have (or had) is love in its pure form, and I agree with her on that.

Unfortunately for our discussion, I don't see Angel at all in the "innocent" model - everything in his life is so intimately connected to Angelus, his entire existence, from how I see the character, cannot be separated into Soul Angel and Soulless Angelus.

I agree that a lot of what Angelus did connects to Angel, which is why Angel felts so guilty. Yet, like Spike, I don't hold Angel accountable for the crimes he committed when he was a soulless vampire. That doesn't mean I think he's completely innocent. It just means I can't judge him like a human being. So, I guess we may have to agree to disagree there 🙂 And, for the record, when I refer to Angel's "innocence," I'm only referring to his love for Buffy and nothing in relation to his crimes as Angelus, if that makes it clearer 🙂

 

[nmcil12]

Angel said that when he first saw Buffy at her old high school in LA, he loved her because he saw her heart. As a result of this love, he wanted to protect her (and warm her heart with his own, as he said). Therefore, based on his initial love for Buffy, Angel was then motivated to change and ultimately, to try and redeem himself for his crimes as Angelus. I also still stand by my thoughts about their love being pure. SMG even said once that the relationship Buffy and Angel have (or had) is love in its pure form, and I agree with her on that.


This is just going to have to be another of those Buffy-Angel Love Relationship Elements that I don't quite understand. What it seems more to me was that if this "warming of hearts" was the premise, from how I saw the character of Angel, it was he who was warming his heart via Buffy -

But if SMG played her character from this perspective then I'm very glad to have the information -

 

[mayfever]

I never really liked that particular line (it's cheesy and, as Buffy says, "if taken literally, incredibly gross"), but if we really want to take apart what Angel meant by it, I understood it that when he first saw Buffy, he saw a fragile, insecure young girl and, knowing what the world had in store for her, wanted to protect her not only from the physical dangers of her calling, but also from the emotional pain.

Of course it turned out to be a mutual thing eventually, but back then, Angel had no intention of becoming that close to Buffy.

That's just how I saw it, even though re-reading your post, I'm not even sure that was your question in the first place. 😕

 

[brinkster130]

---------- Post added at 03:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:38 PM ----------



You don't do your arguments for Pure & Innocent love at all with this line of thinking - this takes us back to the single most reason that Buffy's love for him is seen as destructive - the Sacrifice of Faith's life, her conscious decision to exchange one life for another.

---------- Post added at 03:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 PM ----------



You quoted my response but I never argued that Bangel was a pure and innocent love. I just think it was first love. A great love yes, but I dont think I ever used the words pure or innocent.
And the second part you quoted wasn't a serious argument...like it was said before it was more of a "funny/wishful thinking" relpy that was meant to bring a little fun to the battle ship.

 

[nmcil12]

I personally feel the main difference between the two is that Angel wanted to protect Buffy by "fighting in front of her" (metaphorically of course) and Spike wanted to fight BESIDE her. Angel thought of himself in the relationship as Buffy's protector... which worked then because Buffy was young and kind of needed someone to protect her. But by the time Spuffy rolled around, she needed an ally rather than a protector. And that's what Spike gave her and how he loved her.

I also think because Spuffy started with Spike having no soul, there was a bit of Spike learning how to love. Angel I think figured out how to love Buffy pretty quickly. It took Spike a long time to figure it all out.

That a nice way to describe generally their difference in the relationships -

 

[xaphania]

This was posted in the Spuffy fanvid recs thread, but as it features Bangel as well, I thought I'd bring it over here.

It's a beautiful video to start with but it also brings up some interesting meta points and questions. Be sure to read the vidders intro to the video here as it explains things a little better.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07GWVqwVq1M[/ame]

After seeing this... how can anyone question Spike/Buffy?

 

[Chosen Enemy]

This was posted in the Spuffy fanvid recs thread, but as it features Bangel as well, I thought I'd bring it over here.

It's a beautiful video to start with but it also brings up some interesting meta points and questions. Be sure to read the vidders intro to the video here as it explains things a little better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07GWVqwVq1M

After seeing this... how can anyone question Spike/Buffy?

Wow, it made me teary. But then again, Spuffy always makes me teary. In a good way. Thanks for posting, I really enjoyed it!

 

[Christopher]

You Spuffy mother****ers are wronger then Wrongy McWrong 😛

Spike admitted in the final episode that he knew Buffy didn't love him. Case closed!

 

[Wishing Oceans]

You Spuffy mother****ers are wronger then Wrongy McWrong 😛

Spike admitted in the final episode that he knew Buffy didn't love him. Case closed!

First off... You're new, but we have a little thing here where we respect BOTH sides. 😉 Attack the argument, not the arguers, please.

The case is never "Closed", and Spike is not Buffy. It's a lot more complex than that... Which is why the debate shall never end! 😀

 

[mayfever]

You Spuffy mother****ers are wronger then Wrongy McWrong 😛

Spike admitted in the final episode that he knew Buffy didn't love him. Case closed!

seriously? we have reached that level now? 🙄

 

[Tome]

You Spuffy mother****ers are wronger then Wrongy McWrong 😛

Spike admitted in the final episode that he knew Buffy didn't love him. Case closed!

The first time I watched the show, when Buffy said that to him at the end of 'Chosen', I actually had kinda the same impression. That Buffy was saying that for HIM. But that it wasn't entirely true.

But, after watching the show again and again, and having a bunch of arguments about this with friends, I gotta admit that even if that scene isn't ENOUGH to prove to the viewers that Buffy love Spike, a bunch of scenes before that were proof enough.

May I direct you to my favorite Spuffy's scene, in 'Touched' when Spike and Buffy have this open-heart conversation? You can definitely see Buffy loved him there. There's also when he asked her to kill him because he was dangerous for everyone, and she told him that she had faith in him, that he could be a better man(or vampire lol). Also, the look that Buffy gives Spike when she unties him at the end of 'Showtime', you can't tell me it isn't love! 😉

I'm not the BIGGEST Spuffy's fan. But these examples are hard to ignore.

 

[white avenger]

Regardless of these I'm still standing firmly on ship Bangel with no view of the dread pirate ship Spuffy in my sights and not the slightest cause for sea sick




Now don't mistake me here, I'm not trying to say loyalty is the main reason ship Bangel flies a proud mast, Buffy and Angel's love is the main reason. But loyalty is a huge part of why Bangel supporters can't see past the stern of the Bangel ship to the Spuffy ship that is lapping behind (at least in our eyes that is 😉 ) and why they never will.

First off, just a few comments about your metaphors. Sea sickness is caused by the actions of the ship you're on in relationship with the sea. Sighting the "dread ship Spike" causes Bangles to prepare their defenses for an upcoming battle.

Secondly, the mast doesn't fly. The flags and pennants attatched to it do.

And thirdly, the mere fact that the Bangels spend so much time looking over their stern, which would only be done if the aforementioned "dread ship Spuffy" was either gaining on them and, or presented some imagined threat (it doesn't. Spuffies in the majority don't as much argue whether or not Buffy loved or didn't love Angel, we simply support the idea that she also loves Spike) indicates that they are spending far too much time looking at what is behind them instead of looking ahead for actual threats (for instance, the "dread iceberg Twilight," which has been far more damaging to Bangel than Spuffy ever has been).

Speaking strictly for myself, other than a few good natured jokes and some friendly kidding, I don't as much deny or attack the Bangel relationship as I support the notion that Buffy is capable of loving two different men in two different stages of her life, and that she could continue to love both men equally, even if that love is felt in different ways.

Spuffy isn't the enemy of Bangel, so there's no real reason for Bangel to be the enemy of Spuffy. With a little mutual consideration, cooperation, and acceptance, we could get along perfectly well together. We could even form an alliance to stamp out the Cangels, Fuffies, Banders, Xangels, Brileys, and Spangels who infest the boards.