Bangel vs. Spuffy Round 2

Yet, Angel had a soul when he fell in love with Buffy. Sure, it was creepy when Angel watched her sleep, lol, but I never saw his love for Buffy as an obsession...
You don't think it was creepy he followed her to Sunnydale? or followed her IN Sunnydale? He stalked her. I mean, she developed feelings for him quickly... but still. It started with stalking. And I don't believe in love at first sight so the argument "Angel was in love with Spike when that demon took him to see Buffy be called" doesn't really work for me. I get that he wanted to help her, but why not come clean with her to begin with. Find her, tell her what was going on and that he was there to help. Their relationship started with lies. Personally, in a way, that makes Spuffy better because their relationship didn't start in lies. But that's another issue
 
You don't think it was creepy he followed her to Sunnydale? or followed her IN Sunnydale? He stalked her. I mean, she developed feelings for him quickly... but still. It started with stalking.

There's two ways of looking at it. It could be seen as stalking or as watching over her (trying to protect her). I'm not saying I don't think it's creepy because I absolutely do, but Angel's intentions were good. He wanted to make sure she was safe.

And I don't believe in love at first sight so the argument "Angel was in love with Spike when that demon took him to see Buffy be called" doesn't really work for me.

Lol, do you mean when Angel was in love with Buffy? 😀 Anyways, I personally don't believe in love at first sight, but I'll believe it in movies and TV shows if that's the story we're presented. So, for Angel, it was love at first sight because he saw her heart (apparently, lol).

I get that he wanted to help her, but why not come clean with her to begin with. Find her, tell her what was going on and that he was there to help. Their relationship started with lies. Personally, in a way, that makes Spuffy better because their relationship didn't start in lies. But that's another issue

I agree that Angel should have told Buffy right away that he was a vampire. Yet, I think he was simply scared of how she would react (and rightfully so). Plus, it's in Angel's character. He keeps things from his friends (both in BtVS and in AtS) when he should be honest. He does it thinking it is for the best and for their own safety, but it would be better to tell them.
 
Z
zobothehobo
haha Yes I did mean "Angel was in love with Buffy" hahahaha
I can't believe I'm going to defend Bangel, lol. In regards to their relationship being pure, are you referring to their relationship in the comics or their relationship on the show? If we're referring to the comics, no problem there only because I don't know too much about them except for the past few issues (and summaries). But, if we're referring to the show (mainly BtVS), then I think I may have to disagree with that statement.

I am primarily referring to the TV Era, but Season 8, IMO, is still very much connected regarding Buffy and Angel.

My perspective on the TV Era is one that was always filtered through my interest in the mythic connections, metaphor,social,political dynamics and the psychological elements in the stories. My interest in the surface romance is actually not what I found compelling about the series.

I can't discuss the "romance" of Buffy and Angel because I never viewed it as story of romance and love separate from the above mentioned parameters.

But I would love to hear your thoughts about the relationships -

What I have found however, with all the years that I have been involved with the Buffyverse, is that there are a wide range of interpretations and levels of interest in the series, from the high academia to viewers who enjoyed the series without all the analysis or particular interest in all the difficult questions and themes of the series.

As an example - I can never just see Angel as a male who loved Buffy. It is a fundamental question for me of - why would an older male and the vampire of his age be interested in such a young girl? What is of extreme importance to me regarding the difference in age and life experience is vital, but to viewers who were big fans of their relationship, as I suspect for current fans, it is of very little importance. We start from fundamnetally different positions.

Another element of the show is the depiction of Buffy in the school girl persona. Buffy is treated with two extremely different faces - we have the "young teen girl" that is shown as interested in "boy friends" and "dating" and "early teen sex" while the other face of Buffy is treated as a much older young woman. It was like seeing two different characters and the changes from one to the other, I found only emphasised more the extreme differences of age and life between the two.

There was also "unconditional love" concept which is great when speaking of abstractions of love but when the abstraction becomes "reality" - we have people who become victims of that unconditional love. We see in the episode with the girl and her abusive boy friend who becomes the human monster manifestation of his inner demon. Look at Ted and his corruption and inversion of the "unconditional love" theme. His demand for unconditional love turns him into a mechanical man killer who makes living women into dead dolls that are perfect wives. What is the tragic Buffy manifestation of this "unconditional love" - her inability to kill her boy friend Angel even as he was killing innocent people every night. Kendra was killed because Buffy with her life experience simply was unprepared emotionally and intellectually to deal with the extremes of this relationship.

The whole point of the Acathla Cycle was to prepare Buffy for her trial and "rite of passage." Getting back to perspectives, this entire arc for me is primarily view from the hero in myth - there could be no other resolution to this arc. If Buffy was ever going to "Become" the full embodiment of the Slayer/Heroine, it is absolutely necessary that understand and accept what her duty and life as The Slayer required.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing your comments.
 
I do believe that both Angel and Spike love Buffy, and I certainly do see a definite difference in the way that that love is expressed.

Angel is totally protective of Buffy. He would not hesitate to take the figurative bullet in her stead, and we have seen that he is willing to give up any chance for happiness with her if he thinks that by doing so he can make her life better. We saw that at the end of Season 3 when, accepting the fact that they could never be together without endangering Buffy, he moved away to LA. We saw it again in "I Will Remember You," when he gave up his mortality in order to protect her (or, more accurately, so that SHE wouldn't die protecting HIM). Angel is the one who can always be counted on, in Buffy's darkest hours, such as when Joyce died, to hold her, dry her tears, and promise to do so for as long as she needs him. I have no doubt that, if Buffy and her people did, in fact, go to Los Angeles after Season 7 ended, he did the exact same thing there.

Spike, on the other hand, while just as protective of Buffy and just as willing to sacrifice himself for her, but, unlike Angel, he refuses to accept things as they are and live with what fate dictates. Instead, he finds a way to change things in order to make them better. Instead of leaving Sunnydale because his being there is potentially harmful to Buffy, he leaves to find a way to become a better man, someone worthy of her love and able to help her in her fight. Instead of drying her tears and hold her until things got better, Spike is the one who tells Buffy that he is there to comfort her however he can, but in the meantime there are demons lurking in the shadows, and she needs to get off of her grieving ass and get back on the job.

Angel holds Buffy's hand, while Spike covers her back. That's the difference between the two as I see it, though I'm sure that others will disagree. Both men love Buffy, either one would die for her with no hesitation, and think himself lucky for the privilege of doing so.

Valid point, but in Season 5 of Angel, Spike seems to struggle with this. He questions his existence and wonders if being alive would take away from him standing by her side. I kind of took this as him wanting to protect Buffy and what they had...wouldn't that put him on the same playing field as Angel?
 
My perspective on the TV Era is one that was always filtered through my interest in the mythic connections, metaphor,social,political dynamics and the psychological elements in the stories. My interest in the surface romance is actually not what I found compelling about the series.

I can't discuss the "romance" of Buffy and Angel because I never viewed it as story of romance and love separate from the above mentioned parameters.

But I would love to hear your thoughts about the relationships -

I see the relationships in BtVS (and AtS) simply as part of the overall story. They aren't the main reason for watching, unlike some other vampire stories out there ::cough:: Twilight ::cough::, but they are enjoyable and entertaining to watch, at least for me.

The relationships in the Buffyverse also affect how the characters think, act, and make decisions, which then affects other story arcs. For example, Buffy's relationship with Angel triggered the story of the curse and Angel becoming Angelus. It also caused Buffy to feel so devastated when she had to kill him, and later move to LA. On the flip side, Buffy's relationship with Spike triggered the story of Spike wanting to be good. It also led to Buffy choosing Spike to wear the amulet for the final battle. I guess my point is that a lot of what Buffy does can relate back to her relationship with either Angel or Spike, which then has an impact on the main plotline. If there's romance along the way, then I'm all for it (more so with Spuffy than Bangel 😀). I'm a hopeless romantic at heart 🙂

What I have found however, with all the years that I have been involved with the Buffyverse, is that there are a wide range of interpretations and levels of interest in the series, from the high academia to viewers who enjoyed the series without all the analysis or particular interest in all the difficult questions and themes of the series.

Although I'm still relatively new to the Buffyverse, I agree that there are many ways to interpret and view the series. I studied film and TV in college, so trust me on that, lol. I just choose to talk more about the relationships at times because it's fun 😀

As an example - I can never just see Angel as a male who loved Buffy. It is a fundamental question for me of - why would an older male and the vampire of his age be interested in such a young girl? What is of extreme importance to me regarding the difference in age and life experience is vital, but to viewers who were big fans of their relationship, as I suspect for current fans, it is of very little importance. We start from fundamnetally different positions.

Based on the story we're given, Angel was interested in Buffy (a girl technically younger than him) because he knew how alone she would be and feel as the slayer. He didn't want that for an innocent girl. He was lost ever since getting his soul back, but was inspired by Buffy to reform. With the age difference, I remember Joss saying (from YouTube) that Buffy wasn't a little girl when she fell in love with Angel. She was a slayer for a while, so that made her more mature than other girls her age. She was at an age when she could fall in love with someone like Angel. That's also one of the reasons why I don't necessarily believe both Buffy and Angel had to mature and experience other things before getting back together.

For me, although it is creepy and technically illegal that an older vampire would want to help a 16 year-old girl, the age thing really wasn't a crucial aspect to their relationship. It was the fact that Buffy fell in love with a vampire and a vampire fell in love with a slayer.

Another element of the show is the depiction of Buffy in the school girl persona. Buffy is treated with two extremely different faces - we have the "young teen girl" that is shown as interested in "boy friends" and "dating" and "early teen sex" while the other face of Buffy is treated as a much older young woman. It was like seeing two different characters and the changes from one to the other, I found only emphasised more the extreme differences of age and life between the two.

Isn't that what a young teenage girl goes through though? She's interested in all these new things, like dating and having fun, but at the same time, she has responsibilities. She needs to start acting like a woman. For Buffy, her responsibilities included being the slayer, not just getting her homework done and chores around the house. I guess it's not that far of a stretch for me to see two different sides of Buffy in her school girl days.

What is the tragic Buffy manifestation of this "unconditional love" - her inability to kill her boy friend Angel even as he was killing innocent people every night. Kendra was killed because Buffy with her life experience simply was unprepared emotionally and intellectually to deal with the extremes of this relationship.

I agree that Buffy was unprepared to deal with Angelus, since no one saw it coming. However, it was difficult for Buffy to immediately switch off her feelings for Angel, especially after she just lost her virginity to him. She wanted to believe that there was still some part of Angel left inside Angelus that could fight and come back. Unfortunately, when Angelus took over, Angel was gone.

Although he was a vampire, Angel was the first person Buffy really romantically loved. And it was the same thing for Angel. There wasn't a girl he truly loved before being sired, and Angelus loved Darla more so than Angel. So, when I say Buffy and Angel's love was pure, it's because the foundation of their relationship was based on pure, innocent, and mutual first love.

The whole point of the Acathla Cycle was to prepare Buffy for her trial and "rite of passage." Getting back to perspectives, this entire arc for me is primarily view from the hero in myth - there could be no other resolution to this arc. If Buffy was ever going to "Become" the full embodiment of the Slayer/Heroine, it is absolutely necessary that understand and accept what her duty and life as The Slayer required.

Thing is Buffy wasn't the typical hero, or slayer for that matter. She didn't abandon her family once she became the slayer, like Kendra. She didn't fight vampires alone. She defied destiny, fate, and what she was expected to do time and again. With the Acathla Cycle, Buffy made the difficult decision to kill re-ensouled Angel in order to save the world. By making that decision, she understood her slayer duties, although it caused her heartache. People are often faced with situations where an immediate decision is needed. Although their decision is the right one and ultimately heroic, it doesn't always mean it was the easy choice.
 
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zobothehobo
[No message]
I don't quite understand what is meant by "pure" in these discussions - I see that word applied often to their relationship - I've never thought of Love as Pure outside of a more religious context - like that love of Jesus or a Bodhisattva or the love of a young child for its parents - no ulterior motivations outside of Love for the object. I personally cannot place Angel in this category - his love for Buffy, IMVHO, was layered with needs outside of romantic love.

Nor can I really give Buffy the "pure love" and the greatest example of how, IMO, her love was ultimately corrupted was the whole Sacrifice Faith to Save Angel. I guess more than anything else, this conscious choice to sacrifice another life for her personal agenda is why I will always see this relationship as extreme detrimental and destructive. Had Buffy made the choice to sacrifice her own life first, it would have been the ultimate Pure Love, but that is not what she does. The fact that when Buffy is looking at herself in the mirror, the visual and text show "LOST" If I remember it correctly, I think does introduce the very dark place that she went to from this love.

One thing that I have always wonder about how viewers related to their relationship is one of age. Did older viewers and older women see it in a much greater negative perspective than younger viewers? I was not a young person when the series aired and I know that my age and life experiences did greatly influence how I interpreted their relationship.

You make a great point of how the series was integrated and developed from one point to the next. Every episode was connected some more than others, but all kept the line unbroken.
 
I don't quite understand what is meant by "pure" in these discussions - I see that word applied often to their relationship - I've never thought of Love as Pure outside of a more religious context - like that love of Jesus or a Bodhisattva or the love of a young child for its parents - no ulterior motivations outside of Love for the object. I personally cannot place Angel in this category - his love for Buffy, IMVHO, was layered with needs outside of romantic love.

Nor can I really give Buffy the "pure love" and the greatest example of how, IMO, her love was ultimately corrupted was the whole Sacrifice Faith to Save Angel. I guess more than anything else, this conscious choice to sacrifice another life for her personal agenda is why I will always see this relationship as extreme detrimental and destructive. Had Buffy made the choice to sacrifice her own life first, it would have been the ultimate Pure Love, but that is not what she does. The fact that when Buffy is looking at herself in the mirror, the visual and text show "LOST" If I remember it correctly, I think does introduce the very dark place that she went to from this love.

For me, when I think of pure, I think of innocence. As I said, Buffy and Angel's relationship was founded on this purity and innocence because it was a first real love for both of them. By s3, their relationship definitely lost some of its purity, as a result of what happened in s2. However, based on their foundation with their feelings, I still think their love was pure.

(I need to get my Spuffy fix after that, lol!)

One thing that I have always wonder about how viewers related to their relationship is one of age. Did older viewers and older women see it in a much greater negative perspective than younger viewers? I was not a young person when the series aired and I know that my age and life experiences did greatly influence how I interpreted their relationship.

Well, I'm 25 and finished watching the show at 25. I don't know if my opinions would be different had I watched the show during its original run (I would have been a teenager), but I'd like to think they would be similar.

You make a great point of how the series was integrated and developed from one point to the next. Every episode was connected some more than others, but all kept the line unbroken.

Thanks 🙂 You make some good points in your posts too.
 
So let's at least cut Spike the same slack that we do Angel. Neither man should be held responsible for anything that they did prior to regaining their soul, or both should. Level that playing field, and it might just be that Spike is a better man than Angel ever will be. Or not. But at least give the guy the simple courtesy if judging both him and Angel by the same standards.
I couldn't give you any more reputation, but you have a good point.

I do wish that fans judged them by the same standards. But, Spike is different than Angel - he had the ability to love without a soul. He's the anomaly. That's why it's so hard for some people to deal with th AR. Still, he made a mistake, and Buffy forgave him for it, true. His actions contridicted his words. With Spike, he's always been that grey area, and it's hard for people to justify his actions.

Spike's the "bad guy", always will be. He'll always be villianized. It's unfair, but what can we do?

I don't quite understand what is meant by "pure" in these discussions - I see that word applied often to their relationship - I've never thought of Love as Pure outside of a more religious context - like that love of Jesus or a Bodhisattva or the love of a young child for its parents - no ulterior motivations outside of Love for the object. I personally cannot place Angel in this category - his love for Buffy, IMVHO, was layered with needs outside of romantic love.

Nor can I really give Buffy the "pure love" and the greatest example of how, IMO, her love was ultimately corrupted was the whole Sacrifice Faith to Save Angel. I guess more than anything else, this conscious choice to sacrifice another life for her personal agenda is why I will always see this relationship as extreme detrimental and destructive. Had Buffy made the choice to sacrifice her own life first, it would have been the ultimate Pure Love, but that is not what she does. The fact that when Buffy is looking at herself in the mirror, the visual and text show "LOST" If I remember it correctly, I think does introduce the very dark place that she went to from this love.

One thing that I have always wonder about how viewers related to their relationship is one of age. Did older viewers and older women see it in a much greater negative perspective than younger viewers? I was not a young person when the series aired and I know that my age and life experiences did greatly influence how I interpreted their relationship.

I wouldn't describe B/A's love as pure, either, if we're using that word simutaniously with innocence. Angel was not innocent. Yes, Buffy was the first person he ever loved, but that does not make him innocent. There was definitely an agenda for both parties.

As for the age thing, we've discussed that alot on here, and it bothers some people more than others. I'm inclined to think that, when it came to love, Angel was immature, so they were equals on that level. Otherwise, Angel had two lifetimes more experience than Buffy had. I always wondered what they could possibly have in common. I always wondered how much Angel's fascination with her had to do with the fact that she was a Slayer. I mean, he claimed to love her before he'd even met her.
 
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zobothehobo
[No message]
I wouldn't describe B/A's love as pure, either, if we're using that word simutaniously with innocence. Angel was not innocent. Yes, Buffy was the first person he ever loved, but that does not make him innocent. There was definitely an agenda for both parties.

I agree that Angel himself was not innocent. He had blood on his hands from all the crimes he did as Angelus. However, his love for Buffy made him want to change, to be a better person. Unlike Spike, Angel fell in love with Buffy when he had a soul. He probably would have wasted away in NYC if he didn't see and fall in love with Buffy. So, in that sense, their love is pure and innocent IMO. It was free of any other evil motive.

Based on that, I disagree that there was an agenda for both Buffy and Angel. Angel didn't want to get close to Buffy in order to get information and leave, or to ultimately deceive her. He simply wanted to help and protect her after falling in love with her. It's similar with Buffy. After she found out he was a vampire and did horrible things pre-soul, she still had feelings for him and wanted to be with him.

(Someone please stop me from defending Bangel, lol!) 🙂
 
T
The Unspoken
Defending Bangel?! Unless you're trying to make a point about the dangers of drugs, this is unacceptable!
Z
zobothehobo
STOP DEFENDING BANGEL! hahaa
brinkster130
brinkster130
there is nothing wrong with defending Bangel! :) keep it up!
You don't think it was creepy he followed her to Sunnydale? or followed her IN Sunnydale? He stalked her. I mean, she developed feelings for him quickly... but still. It started with stalking. And I don't believe in love at first sight so the argument "Angel was in love with Spike when that demon took him to see Buffy be called" doesn't really work for me. I get that he wanted to help her, but why not come clean with her to begin with. Find her, tell her what was going on and that he was there to help. Their relationship started with lies. Personally, in a way, that makes Spuffy better because their relationship didn't start in lies. But that's another issue

Well didn't Dru know that Spike had a thing for Buffy even before Spike knew it? I don't remember the specific episode, but I remember Spike saying something about Dru knowing that he cared and thats why her couldn't kill her...so Dru left him. So I think its fair to say that both men had feelings for Buffy before they really knew her. Angel watched Buffy in early seasons and Spike watched her in the later seasons (maybe he didnt watch her sleep but he was lurking outside her house a lot).

I never though either relationship started with complete honesty.



Ok, Bangels please explain something to me. I've heard COUNTLESS times "Spike's love for Buffy was selfish" and that's a reason given for not shipping Spuffy... but isn't ALL love selfish to an extent? And how was Spike's love particularly selfish? He went to the ends of the earth and basically hell and back to get his soul. That's not selfish. He did that for her. And if you want to say "yeah, he did that for her so he could get something out of it" well don't all people do that? Isn't everything we do for love for selfish reasons? I spent over $1,000 a few years ago on my cat because I loved her.. but I also did it to keep her with me. I know it's not the same thing but it's a perfect example of doing something extreme for love and for yourself. We are selfish creatures, humans. Everything we do is selfish... there is no act that is completely selfless. I feel like this reasoning is so flawed and I just don't understand. So Bangels, please... I want to understand. How is Spike so selfish in his love for Buffy?

I am a Bangel and I think that BOTH relationships had selfish moments. It took both men time to see that not being with her was best for her. Angel worked that out in BTV season 3 and Spike worked that out in Angel season 5.

---------- Post added at 01:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------

Lol, and I'll never believe Buffy loved Angel more than Spike based on what we do see. Her line doesn't prove she ultimately loved him more because she wasn't in love with Spike at that time. I'll always believe she loved them both equally, but differently. Yet, my Spuffy heart often says, "You fool! She loved Spike more than Angel," as evidenced by her actions in "Chosen." 🙂


Maybe Buffy had Spike fight alongside her in "Chosen" because she could stand the possibility of seeing Angel die again?
 
Well didn't Dru know that Spike had a thing for Buffy even before Spike knew it? I don't remember the specific episode, but I remember Spike saying something about Dru knowing that he cared and thats why her couldn't kill her...so Dru left him. So I think its fair to say that both men had feelings for Buffy before they really knew her. Angel watched Buffy in early seasons and Spike watched her in the later seasons (maybe he didnt watch her sleep but he was lurking outside her house a lot).

I never though either relationship started with complete honesty.
I didn't say Spike didn't stalk Buffy. He did. And he didn't lie to Buffy about what Dru said.
 
I didn't say Spike didn't stalk Buffy. He did. And he didn't lie to Buffy about what Dru said.

Reading through this post it just seems like the Spuffies are making excuses for Spike and the Bangels are making excuses for Angel. My point is just that I don't think the two are really all that different.
 
Reading through this post it just seems like the Spuffies are making excuses for Spike and the Bangels are making excuses for Angel. My point is just that I don't think the two are really all that different.

I don't either. That was the whole point of my first post you quoted. I mean I did say Spuffy was better because it didn't start in lies... but I was defending that both Spuffy and Bangel were not "innocent" and "pure." Both had their impurities from the beginning on the vampires' sides. Spuffy with Spike being soulless and Bangel with Angel stalking and lying to Buffy.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
I agree neither are pure, but I do think both couples are hot :)
Maybe Buffy had Spike fight alongside her in "Chosen" because she could stand the possibility of seeing Angel die again?

She could stand the possibility again? Ok, then 😀

Lol, I'm just teasing. I'm sure you meant she couldn't stand the possibility of seeing Angel die again. Nevertheless, um, no. Buffy chose Spike to wear the amulet and to be her champion over Angel. Besides, she looked pretty sad when she realized Spike was going to die.

(YAY! I'm back to defending Spuffy 😀)
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
opps...COULDN'T. lol. I do agree with you, I wasn't completely serious with that response...it was more wishful thinking on my part :)
S
SlayerOfVampyrs
LOL! How relieved are you to not be defending Bangel anymore? LOL
Z
zobothehobo
YAY! We got our Spuffy back!
Buffy chose Spike to wear the amulet and to be her champion over Angel. Besides, she looked pretty sad when she realized Spike was going to die.

(YAY! I'm back to defending Spuffy 😀)

The writers had Buffy choose Spike to wear the amulet because the bloody yoke would kill the wearer and Angel still had to be on another season of his own show. That's the main reason for me, but if we talk plot-inherent reasons, she told Angel "I can't risk you". Meaning a) she knew he had to be a champion somewhere else and b) she couldn't bear the thought of possibly seeing him die again.

And of course Buffy looked sad, after all she had come to love Spike, albeit not in a romantic way. Proof? "No, I don't see fat grandchildren with Spike." And then she proceeds to give Angel the cookie dough speech (also a ploy because Angel went into season 5 and SMG wasn't on it). I can't really see how the whole thing can be interpreted differently. As I keep saying, when I watched "Chosen" for the first time, I was vehemently rooting for Spuffy (because I didn't know about Angel then and didn't like the looks of him when he showed up) and I remember being like: "Oh crap, that ship has sailed then."
 
G
GrrArghx
[No message]
brinkster130 agrees: opps...COULDN'T. lol. I do agree with you, I wasn't completely serious with that response...it was more wishful thinking on my part

Lol, I figured. I was just having fun too in my response 😀

The writers had Buffy choose Spike to wear the amulet because the bloody yoke would kill the wearer and Angel still had to be on another season of his own show. That's the main reason for me, but if we talk plot-inherent reasons, she told Angel "I can't risk you". Meaning a) she knew he had to be a champion somewhere else and b) she couldn't bear the thought of possibly seeing him die again.

I don't think Angel having another season on his own show is the best reason as to why Buffy chose Spike. The writers could have done anything they wanted if they felt Angel should be the one to wear the amulet. For example,
Spike came back from the dead after wearing the amulet, so Angel could have come back to life on his own show if the writers decided that he should wear it instead.
Plot-wise, Angel had the resources and people to put together a second front. It was the right move by Buffy. Plus, if Buffy couldn't bear the thought of possibly seeing Angel die again, why didn't she then stay with him those 2 nights before the final battle? Spike was the man in her life now.

And of course Buffy looked sad, after all she had come to love Spike, albeit not in a romantic way. Proof? "No, I don't see fat grandchildren with Spike." And then she proceeds to give Angel the cookie dough speech (also a ploy because Angel went into season 5 and SMG wasn't on it). I can't really see how the whole thing can be interpreted differently. As I keep saying, when I watched "Chosen" for the first time, I was vehemently rooting for Spuffy (because I didn't know about Angel then and didn't like the looks of him when he showed up) and I remember being like: "Oh crap, that ship has sailed then."

Of course Buffy loved Spike romantically! :banghead: LOL, what's it gonna take to get people to see that? 🙄

Buffy said she didn't see "fat grandchildren with Spike" because she didn't see herself with anyone in the future, at least not right now. She followed up by saying she didn't think it really mattered "right now," whether she saw a future with anyone. She wasn't thinking that far ahead. She then gave the cookie dough speech to explain her feelings on why she's not ready to be with anyone, long-term at least. People push Buffy a lot with her feelings and she needs to get there on her own time. Riley pushed her, Spike pushed her when he had his obsession (s5), and Angel was pushing her in this scene (which felt way OOC for me considering everything he's been through in AtS). Plus, even when Buffy said she sometimes looks into the future, she didn't say she specifically saw it with Angel. Yet, even if she "sometimes" thought of a future with Angel, it's pretty funny how a "forever love" turned into "sometimes." I'm just sayin' 🙂
 
Z
zobothehobo
[No message]
P
prophecygrrl
You said it! :D
X
xaphania
[No message]
K
kadrikaur
From forever love into sometimes - loves it!
The writers had Buffy choose Spike to wear the amulet because the bloody yoke would kill the wearer and Angel still had to be on another season of his own show. That's the main reason for me, but if we talk plot-inherent reasons, she told Angel "I can't risk you". Meaning a) she knew he had to be a champion somewhere else and b) she couldn't bear the thought of possibly seeing him die again.

If you're going to place any credence on what the writers knew when they had Spike wear the amulet instead of Angel, the writers also knew, though we didn't (well, actually we did, because by the time that "Chosen" aired, the news was already out that Spike would be moving over to Angel's show the next season) that the whole reason that Angel was given the amulet in the first place was so that HE, not Spike, Faith, or Buffy, would wear the amulet into the hellmouth, thus becoming bound to W&H the way that Spike was when he first came back.

To me, the main reason that Buffy sent Angel back to LA had no more to do with actual romantic feelings than it did with that lame "second front" crap (Really, now, just how effective a fighting force would Angel be able to gather and prepare to fight off an army of ubervamps and Bringers in the few days that he would have had to do it?) The truth of the matter, the tactical reason to send Angel away was quite simple. You don't put two pit bulldogs together and expect them not to spend as much time fighting each other as the enemy, and that's exactly what Angel and Spike were at that time. Bringing Angel into the fight at that time would have been just too disruptive to an already volatile situation. The Scoobies/Potentials mutiny was barely settled, and any more disruptions at that point would have done far more harm than good. (Is there anyone here who has the slightest doubt that Giles would go into apoplexy, and Xander would pitch a running duck fit if Buffy brought ANOTHER vampire ex-boyfriend into the fight?)

So, the Spuffies believe that Buffy sent Angel away so that she could play snuggle puppy with Spike for a few more uninterrupted nights, and the Bangels believe she gave the amulet to Spike to wear because she could bear losing him more easily than seeing Angel die again. Almost certainly, the more logical explanation was that at that moment, she was in her General Buffy persona, and her decision was made purely for tactical reasons. The snuggle puppy thing with Spike was just a bonus.
 
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zobothehobo
[No message]
S
StarSlayer
I agree the snuggle puppy thing was just a bonus. It wasn't the reason she told Angel to prepare a 2nd front.
Saying Buffy didn't mean it when she told Spike she loved him in 'Chosen' - that she did it out of pity - is not only simply false, but also insulting to her character. If there's one thing even the die-hard Bangels can't deny, it's that Spike and Buffy always 'kept it real'. They were never disillusioned about their relationship and always saw it for what it was. It's unfortunate that some Bangels have to drag one half of their ship through the mud to defend said ship.
 
S
StarSlayer
LMFAO at your banner :D
G
GrrArghx
And telling someone their opinion is false is incredibly insulting to those of us who disagree with you. We're all entitled to our own opinions and it doesn't make any of more "wrong" or "right" than the next person.
Kean
Kean
It's even more unfortunate that you have to drag the whole B/A section of fandom through the mud to defend your ship.
white avenger
white avenger
She said it, she meant it, and that should be the end of it. Buffy's statement was NOT a lie.
K
kadrikaur
ship Spuffy is clean and pure, not muddy! yay
Maybe Buffy had Spike fight alongside her in "Chosen" because she [couldn't] stand the possibility of seeing Angel die again?


*rubs eyes*
*blinks*
*reads again*

WHAT? Buffy is right about to fight the biggest war of her life. If Angel was meant to be such an asset to her, why the heck would she send him away just to spare him?? This is war, and it's clear that she's not about to spare ANYONE. She said that she would even let Dawn die this time, when we've seen her give up her life for her before.

And even if she was still madly in love with Angel, the girl is not stupid. No, she's actually very clever and calculating, and even if sometimes she takes being General Buffy a little too far, she knows what she's doing in the end. It's everything Buffy is and grows to be at this point- making decisions and OWNING them. She is not about to jeopardize her lifelong mission and the fate of the world so her old lover could be spared. Even if you're not a Spuffy, I don't see how you could believe this.
 
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zobothehobo
I thought it was just me who thought that notion was a bit... ridiculous.
S
StarSlayer
In all fairness, she said it was mostly wishful thinking :)
brinkster130
brinkster130
it is ridiculous because it wasn't said seriously...if was more of a funny/wishful thinking post. We were just having some fun while on this battle-ship :)
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SlayerOfVampyrs
I love you for this. Just awesome.
StarSlayer agrees: In all fairness, she said it was mostly wishful thinking
brinkster130 agrees: it is ridiculous because it wasn't said seriously...if was more of a funny/wishful thinking post. We were just having some fun while on this battle-ship

Ah, whoops. I didn't see that, sorry! >.< I just adore Buffy Summers, and sometimes I get really defensive of her decisions lol. 😛 My bad!
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
its all good! :)
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