Bangel vs. Spuffy Round 2

[zobothehobo]

I understand that evil is what was being refered to but I disagree that evil is all that defined Spike for a hundred years. Its a question of which identity is stronger. And I think Spikes ability to love was more a defining character than evil. As it is what made him unique.

Ah. I won't argue with you there.

I meant he got his soul for his love for Buffy not for Buffy herself. If that makes sense.

No, it really doesn't. Are you saying he got his soul to make his love for Buffy feel right? That's not true. He got his soul for her. He got it so he could give her what she deserves, a good man. He wanted to give her everything he could... that's why he got his soul. He states that several times flat out.

I think he struggled with leaving for a while. And significantly he did respect Buffy's wishes when she said she didnt wanna see him. Bare in mind he was just out of a hell dimension and was trying to figure things out. He did the right thing in the end.

I do agree here... but I was trying to point out how Angel's love wasn't COMPLETELY selfless. No love is. Complete selflessness doesn't exist, it's a hypothetical construct, much like perfection.

Can you really not see how getting a soul so he could love Buffy seems self motivated? I understand you guys trying to make the point it was for Buffy but Buffy had made it clear she did not love or want him at that point, vehemently so in 'seeing red'...So it seems terribly self motivated to me. Him not taking into account her feelings. I don't think that's twisted logic. Its old regular logic.

So Spike getting his soul was obviously with selfish intentions because Buffy didn't love him as a soulless thing? I mean can you see how getting a soul so he can love her sound selfless. He got it so he could love her, so he could give her all the love she deserves. I don't see how those are selfish intentions at all. Just because she didn't love him back doesn't make it selfish.

It's not that he didn't take her feelings into account. I mean, she didn't say "don't try to become a better man for me." She said she didn't love him. Everyone in an unrequited love situation tires to get the other person to love them back. That's called being in unrequited love. It's not selfish... he was trying to be a better man for her, and if in the process she grew to love him back, that would be a plus. He loved her and he wanted to show her that love... to make her feel that love. But he had no idea how to do that. At the end of the bathroom scene, he realized that he couldn't know how to show her his love, he could make her feel his love in his current condition. Talking to Clem he realized how to do it. It was all for her.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I don't know that he did. For me anyway what is so important to Spike's narrative and what made him unique from any other soulless vampire ,was his enormous capacity to love, despite being a ruthless killer. That's what drew me to him anyway. He loved his mother even after he was turned, he loved Dru so much and he loved Buffy. Getting a soul for the person he loved really doesn't go against what defined him in my opinion in fact it completely validates what makes him unique as a vampire. Like romeo before him Spike has always been in love with the idea of love.

I definitely see what you're saying, but I disagree. I don't think love and evil are mutually exclusive. For example, Spike's capacity to love Dru, as you pointed out, or the Mayor and Faith's father-daughter relationship (albeit twisted, but still they loved each other in a sense), etc. Spike can love, but it doesn't mean a lot of his being isn't rooted in evil as well.

For a hundred plus years, all Spike knew was destruction, death, and hunting. As a demon, evil DOES define him. The fact that he can love doesn't erase the fact that he's also a demon- this is constantly, constantly reiterated in the text, especially Season Six. True, going to get his soul is part of what makes him a champion and crystallizes just about everything we know about the humanity he is capable of, but it also meant that he had to turn his back to the monster inside him. That is no small feat.

 

[ashsummers]

I meant he got his soul for his love for Buffy not for Buffy herself. If that makes sense.

No, it really doesn't. Are you saying he got his soul to make his love for Buffy feel right? That's not true. He got his soul for her. He got it so he could give her what she deserves, a good man. He wanted to give her everything he could... that's why he got his soul. He states that several times flat out

As in he got it so he could love Buffy to enable his love. But it was selfishly motivated because she didnt want him. I understand you're trying to say he thought a soulful him would be the best thing for Buffy. But who is he to know that?

He doesn't take Buffy's wants into account at all here. Many times we think we could love someone better than anyone but that doesn't make it so. Do their wants not come into the equation? Its not his job to decide what's best for her and just because he thinks he's the best thing for her doesn't make it so.

Quote:
I don't know that he did. For me anyway what is so important to Spike's narrative and what made him unique from any other soulless vampire ,was his enormous capacity to love, despite being a ruthless killer. That's what drew me to him anyway. He loved his mother even after he was turned, he loved Dru so much and he loved Buffy. Getting a soul for the person he loved really doesn't go against what defined him in my opinion in fact it completely validates what makes him unique as a vampire. Like romeo before him Spike has always been in love with the idea of love.

I definitely see what you're saying, but I disagree. I don't think love and evil are mutually exclusive. For example, Spike's capacity to love Dru, as you pointed out, or the Mayor and Faith's father-daughter relationship (albeit twisted, but still they loved each other in a sense), etc. Spike can love, but it doesn't mean a lot of his being isn't rooted in evil as well.

For a hundred plus years, all Spike knew was destruction, death, and hunting. As a demon, evil DOES define him. The fact that he can love doesn't erase the fact that he's also a demon- this is constantly, constantly reiterated in the text, especially Season Six. True, going to get his soul is part of what makes him a champion and crystallizes just about everything we know about the humanity he is capable of, but it also meant that he had to turn his back to the monster inside him. That is no small feat.

I'm certainly not saying Spike wasn't evil because he had the capacity to love. I just don't believe trying to get a soul for love goes against everything Spike is. I think love is a huge part of who spike is. So is evil, obviously i can see that.

---------- Post added at 07:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:50 AM ----------

Think I'll leave it there for now. Kinda hard for me to debate against so many of you. I can't keep track of who said what.

Peace be with you all!!! X

 

[prophecygrrl]

He doesn't take Buffy's wants into account at all here. Many times we think we could love someone better than anyone but that doesn't make it so. Do their wants not come into the equation? Its not his job to decide what's best for her and just because he thinks he's the best thing for her doesn't make it so.

He does it, as he says, to be a "kind of man". He's not a monster or a man. More interestingly, he's a monster that wants to be a man. When he goes to get his soul, I think that's one of the final steps toward his journey as a self-actualized hero. It's my personal belief that he gets the soul because he desperately needed it not just because he wanted Buffy's love, but because he wanted to be a man. How could he revert back to being a monster when he's seen the pure goodness and humanity in Buffy? And how could he be a man when he tried to hurt the one person he swore he would never harm? He can't. But he tries. And so he fights for his soul.

I honestly don't think his motivations were purely selfish. I think his trek to get his soul was INSPIRED by Buffy, but it was not solely so that he could go back and start a relationship with her. Whenever I see people argue that he *only* got his soul so that Buffy could love him, I point in the direction of oh, the entirety of season 7. After he gets his soul, he does not, in any way, seek out Buffy. He's pretty content to live in self-flagellation before Buffy finds him in the basement. I've said this before, I think, but it's not "oh I got a soul we can be together forever now, Buffy". He hides in the basement, says multiple times that he doesn't deserve Buffy's help and that he could never ask her for it, and finally, in Touched, says that he doesn't want anything from Buffy precisely because he loves everything that she is already.

 

[zobothehobo]

As in he got it so he could love Buffy to enable his love. But it was selfishly motivated because she didnt want him. I understand you're trying to say he thought a soulful him would be the best thing for Buffy. But who is he to know that?

Who is ANYONE to say what's best for ANYONE else? And who is Spike to not try? He loved her, he wanted to do what he thought was best for her. Just because she didn't want him doesn't mean he shouldn't love her.

He doesn't take Buffy's wants into account at all here. Many times we think we could love someone better than anyone but that doesn't make it so. Do their wants not come into the equation? Its not his job to decide what's best for her and just because he thinks he's the best thing for her doesn't make it so.

Again, just because she doesn't want him doesn't mean he shouldn't love her. I don't think Spike had conclusive evidence he couldn't love Buffy the way she needed to be loved before he got his soul. That was why he did it. So he could love her the way she needed to be loved, if that didn't work, if he couldn't help her, be there for her, love her... he'd deal with that then. He got his soul so he could be better for her than he was. He was taking her into consideration. It was all about being what she needed.

 

[mayfever]

Ok, Bangels please explain something to me. I've heard COUNTLESS times "Spike's love for Buffy was selfish" and that's a reason given for not shipping Spuffy... but isn't ALL love selfish to an extent?

Yes. You're absolutely right. Everyone's love is selfish in that they want their beloved with them at all times. That's what makes Angel's love for Buffy so exceptional (hence my choice of words, "pure") and that's why personally, I have chosen this ship for me.

I've said this before, I think, but it's not "oh I got a soul we can be together forever now, Buffy". He hides in the basement, says multiple times that he doesn't deserve Buffy's help and that he could never ask her for it, and finally, in Touched, says that he doesn't want anything from Buffy precisely because he loves everything that she is already.

I think the reason for that is merely that he underestimated the impact a soul would have on his conscience. In fact, when he left Sunnydale by the end of season 6, his words were precisely "The bitch is gonna get what she deserves". Which, to me, suggests that he went to get his soul for Buffy (even though we were meant to believe that he only wanted to get his chip removed, a stunning example of bad writing because there are still a lot of die-hard Bangels who think that he didn't want a soul at all), but wasn't prepared for what it would do to his sanity.

However, I do love that scene in "Touched", because it illustrates the journey that Spike has completed as a character. As I have already said, I never questioned the fact that he loves Buffy, maybe (and that's a BIG maybe) in his own way even as much as Angel did, and I'm even prepared to admit that Buffy did love him in her own way, but I will never believe that she loved him more than she loved Angel. I just don't see it. And she even said it herself, even though she was making a point.

 

[StarSlayer]

However, I do love that scene in "Touched", because it illustrates the journey that Spike has completed as a character. As I have already said, I never questioned the fact that he loves Buffy, maybe (and that's a BIG maybe) in his own way even as much as Angel did, and I'm even prepared to admit that Buffy did love him in her own way, but I will never believe that she loved him more than she loved Angel. I just don't see it. And she even said it herself, even though she was making a point.

Lol, and I'll never believe Buffy loved Angel more than Spike based on what we do see. Her line doesn't prove she ultimately loved him more because she wasn't in love with Spike at that time. I'll always believe she loved them both equally, but differently. Yet, my Spuffy heart often says, "You fool! She loved Spike more than Angel," as evidenced by her actions in "Chosen." 🙂

 

[The Unspoken]

Yes. You're absolutely right. Everyone's love is selfish in that they want their beloved with them at all times. That's what makes Angel's love for Buffy so exceptional (hence my choice of words, "pure") and that's why personally, I have chosen this ship for me.

You could also argue that the fact that he was willing to give up (so easily) makes him weak, and him and Buffy incompatible. And he probably felt guilty because he thought he was holding Buffy back from having a normal life, so leaving her could actually be in his own benefit (as well), to relieve him from his guilt. So even this 'pure' love can be traced back to a selfish reason or two.

 

[nmcil12]

New here, so don't bite my head off - but - with the high degree which has been shown in both the TV Era and Season 8, is it realistic to think that the "sexual needs" issue would not eventually have had an effect on Buffy. Personally, I think that the circumstances of relationship with the restraints that his curse would place on them both, while it sounds all beautiful and sacrificial and romantic, in reality would be a very difficult thing to live with. Buffy is a very young woman and has a strong sexual drive, same for Angel, it would be a constant grinding down for them and my personal opinion, not a particularly healthy one.

---------- Post added at 12:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 AM ----------

Disclaimer
Before I begin let me just say I have no doubt there are loads of Spuffy fans who have been watching Buffy since it aired so please don't jump down my throat about this. I just noticed a pattern when reading the 'What attracted you to Buffy?' thread and thought it was interesting. So if you accept that. Please read on

You guys got me thinking why no matter how many good Spuffy hypothesises I hear, no matter how many times you demonstrate that Spike loved Buffy so much and all logical reasons as to why they might work better than Bangel. Regardless of these I'm still standing firmly on ship Bangel with no view of the dread pirate ship Spuffy in my sights and not the slightest cause for sea sick....so i pondered.

Subsequently reading the 'what attracted you to Buffy' thread I gained some clarity and realised when you started watching BTVS seems to play a factor in determining the side you fall on in the whole Spuffy-Bangel debate. Not the only factor, or indeed even necessarily an important factor but certainly a factor.

I think alot of the Bangel loyalty comes from fans who grew up with Buffy and Angel together so then when Spike and Buffy hooked up after so many years it was like huh?

For those of you Spuffy fans who didn't watch BTVS when it aired but instead on Boxset. Once again I acknowledge that's not all of you but to those who it is. Can you understand how watching Buffy and Angel together for nearly four years makes a huge difference (in terms of attachment)? To watching the expanse of their relationship in a few short days?

Now I'm not saying had you watched it from when it aired you would feel any different, you most likely wouldn't. But what I am trying to demonstrate is where alot of the Bangel support comes from and why so many of your arguments will fall on deaf ears from a Bangel point of view. Loyalty and nostalgia are not only the prevailing undercurrent of this debate they are for many the end of it.

Now don't mistake me here, I'm not trying to say loyalty is the main reason ship Bangel flies a proud mast, Buffy and Angel's love is the main reason. But loyalty is a huge part of why Bangel supporters can't see past the stern of the Bangel ship to the Spuffy ship that is lapping behind (at least in our eyes that is 😉 ) and why they never will.

I think that individual life experiences are a great part of the different perspectives regarding the two relationships. I know that for many of the then viewers and current fans, age and parenthood had a tremendous influence in how the relationship was perceived. And while the argument is often made that "this is a fantasy not a reflection of real life" the series was intentionally structured to do exactly that, reflect and explore real life. For many viewers who were parents, the idea of a very young teenage girl being involved with an older man who has years and years of "life experience" is extremely significant. And it is clearly a theme that was part of their story otherwise Angel would not have been bothered about the differences between his life and that of this young girl. Angel the man and Angel the vampire know full well that this huge difference in their experience of life is extremely important and beyond this surface layer, all that is underneath, all his emotional and psychological imperatives are perhaps even more important. Buffy is so much more than just a beautiful and strong Slayer in his emotional life, she is his "second chance" to not eradicate his Angelus Life, but to mitigate it - so let him find a path back into light and out of the dark, to find and travel his journey of redemption and the Grace/Mercy of God or The Positive Life Forces.

Let me ask this question - would Buffy and Angel even be possible without Angelus? Where Buffy is continuously seeing and insisting on this vital separation between Angel and Angelus, their relationship is completely founded on the two being one. Angel/
Angelus are inescapably united, for without Angelus there would be no need for Angel's redemption journey and his emotional and psychological need for would not exist either. Angel without Angelus, becomes a centuries of experience older man attracted to a very young. I can assure you that a great many of the older viewers and parents would find this a very disturbing relationship.

---------- Post added at 12:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 PM ----------

I never said loyalty was my reason for shipping Bangel. I believe I made a point of saying that in fact. Rather I was examining how my loyalty to Bangel might be part of the reason i could never fully warm to Spuffy as a couple despite the good points people had made in the previous thread when I was discussing this. I wondered if I wasn't giving Spuffy a proper chance because of that.

But regardless of loyalty Bangel would always win out. I love the relationship Buffy and Angel had for so many reasons. I love that she was the first woman he loved in 242 years. I love that he loved her before she was the slayer, because he could "see her heart"...

Does personal attachment play a part in it? Of course it does but that's just one element. I don't think Spuffy is remotely better than Bangel but that shouldn't mean I can't appreciate aspects of their relationship. But I think my loyalty to Bangel makes it difficult. That was the point i was trying to make. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I think you presented your points well - loyalty does play a part, a small part I think, but it does matter. The important part is how much that loyalty would effect an open investigation of the subject.

 

[nmcil12]

Because she was saying it to make a point. And though she does love him a LOT, she's also made it clear that she loves Dawn and Joyce more than anything. Keep in mind that she's also the Slayer, who is full of love- enough love to save a world that doesn't always deserve it. That's incredible. Our Buffy loves a lot of things, basically. And they're all incredibly important to her. So much so that I don't think you can truly compare them.

I'm honestly not trying to ignore anything just for my ship's sake, (Spuffy speaking 😀) but one statement isn't an absolute truth.

Just want to say if the topic is "which is a better love" this expression is not a measure of "better" it is an expression of magnitude. Very often loving one person more than anything else in life is not a measure of a healthy or good love.

And while I do agree that Buffy, since Season 8 is now a reality, the writers, and apparently with Joss Whedon's consent, has now made Angel/Angelus numero uno.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Just want to say if the topic is "which is a better love" this expression is not a measure of "better" it is an expression of magnitude. Very often loving one person more than anything else in life is not a measure of a healthy or good love.

And while I do agree that Buffy, since Season 8 is now a reality, the writers, and apparently with Joss Whedon's consent, has now made Angel/Angelus numero uno.

Very true! Though I still believe that she doesn't love Angel "more than anything", lol. 😀

I've also recently read a fantastic meta where it was suggested that we love in ways, not amounts. Props to The Royal Anna. 😛

But about Season 8. Spoiler warning just in case people haven't read/don't know what's going on yet.

Spoiler

I can't help but think that the 'Bangel is the absolute only true love' theme through Season Eight is more to do with advancing the plot than staying true to character. The way I see it, Joss is sacrificing character development for world-(re)building. I just can't take the Bangelness seriously when the product of it is just so ludicrous.

 

[zobothehobo]

Ok, I'm going to type a crap load in spoilers about season 8 Bangel

Spoiler

honestly, I don't think Bangel in the comics is really Bangel. I mean, the Bangel sex was Twilight sex. To be honest, I don't completely understand the whole Twilight thing... but from what I gather, it was pre-destined. Buffy didn't really have a choice, it just felt like the right thing to do because the universe was going to make it happen. But I really don't see any of Buffy honest to God CHOOSING Angel. And I don't think that's just the Spuffy in me talking either. We'll see with the coming two issues, but I really don't think season 8 is Buffy choosing Angel. If it is, please correct me... and tell me how I'm wrong. Like I said, I don't really understand it very much, and I'd go back and read it all again, but I read most of it in the bookstore since I didn't have enough money to buy it all so I can't. I mean, I could but it would take a while.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Ok, I'm going to type a crap load in spoilers about season 8 Bangel

Spoiler

honestly, I don't think Bangel in the comics is really Bangel. I mean, the Bangel sex was Twilight sex. To be honest, I don't completely understand the whole Twilight thing... but from what I gather, it was pre-destined. Buffy didn't really have a choice, it just felt like the right thing to do because the universe was going to make it happen. But I really don't see any of Buffy honest to God CHOOSING Angel. And I don't think that's just the Spuffy in me talking either. We'll see with the coming two issues, but I really don't think season 8 is Buffy choosing Angel. If it is, please correct me... and tell me how I'm wrong. Like I said, I don't really understand it very much, and I'd go back and read it all again, but I read most of it in the bookstore since I didn't have enough money to buy it all so I can't. I mean, I could but it would take a while.

More spoilers, hehe. 😀

Spoiler

I agree that it wasn't about her CHOOSING Angel. I don't think Twilight gives a crap about who has the better relationship (*cough*Spuffy*cough*). My problem is more with the prophecy and the whole Twilight thing trying to reiterate that Bangel love is the "best, most transcendent epic love". Which we obviously don't agree with, lol. 😛

I haven't read the comics in a while save for the most recent ones, so forgive me for not having a lot of textual evidence, but it felt like the prophecy was explained by "Oh their love was epic and righteous and true and unique so here, have some Twilight".

does this post make sense? Sorry if it's totally incoherent!

 

[zobothehobo]

More spoilers, hehe. 😀

Spoiler

I agree that it wasn't about her CHOOSING Angel. I don't think Twilight gives a crap about who has the better relationship (*cough*Spuffy*cough*). My problem is more with the prophecy and the whole Twilight thing trying to reiterate that Bangel love is the "best, most transcendent epic love". Which we obviously don't agree with, lol. 😛

I haven't read the comics in a while save for the most recent ones, so forgive me for not having a lot of textual evidence, but it felt like the prophecy was explained by "Oh their love was epic and righteous and true and unique so here, have some Twilight".

does this post make sense? Sorry if it's totally incoherent!

That makes sense. Do you know which issues I should re-read to have the prophecy explained though. I would like to re-read those issues so I can better understand this whole thing...

 

[nmcil12]

Very true! Though I still believe that she doesn't love Angel "more than anything", lol. 😀

I've also recently read a fantastic meta where it was suggested that we love in ways, not amounts. Props to The Royal Anna. 😛

But about Season 8. Spoiler warning just in case people haven't read/don't know what's going on yet.

Spoiler

I can't help but think that the 'Bangel is the absolute only true love' theme through Season Eight is more to do with advancing the plot than staying true to character. The way I see it, Joss is sacrificing character development for world-(re)building. I just can't take the Bangelness seriously when the product of it is just so ludicrous.

To actually try and set standards for which is "the better love or Best Love" is, IMO, not especially productive nor does it address the enormous complexities involved in both these relationships. It is not as simple as Angel Loved Buffy More and Selflessly or Spike, in complete contrast loved only from selfish needs - to think so, is IMVHO, to detract and devalue the stories that were being presented. There is so much more to these three characters and their stories than romantic love. Personally, romantic love takes such a low position in their stories and trying to understand the complex nature of all the characters.

Buffy in the early part of the series is perhaps the less complex character of all three - she presents a much less complex character and motivations than does Angel/Angelus - the depth of the older male character is immense compared to Buffy. Buffy comes across as very much an inexperienced young girl who had this "Huge Want" that overwhelms her life. Angel/Angelus on the other hand is so complex; tortured by life, by death, by murders and chaos. There's a reason that Buffy is called a Slayer and he is an vampire - the psychological implications and the metaphor is significant. His desparate need to connect with this young girl and "Slayer" is, I believe fundamentally based by his guilt of becoming Angelus. Buffy could be seen as the inversion of Drusilla, where he destroyed the innocence and gifted seer, drove her insane and then made her live that destruction as an immortal - with Buffy he could try and do the opposite. Buffy makes it possible to try and slay the demon that is forever within him.

Another important question regarding Buffy and her experience with Angel/Angelus - would she have suffered such emotional and psychological devastation if Angelus had not resurrected? Would she have then become the inversion of Angel post Angelus? Why does Buffy have to continue to see him as this completely separate entity if not because she must find some explanation and justification for all the killings that took place while Angelus persued his obession of her in Sunnydale. How possible to understand and accept the murder of Jenny Calendar and all the time that she allowed her lover to remain alive and killing without having to emotionally defend against the consequences of her not slaying Angel/Angelus?

Buffy and Angel/Angelus are no more a pure and beautiful love than Buffy and Spike - underneath all the surface there is such a darkness that Buffy is still extremely damaged emotionally. How is it possible to understand her Buffy in Season 8 and her choice to reunite with the person whom she spent the entire year fighting against as a great enemy and killer and instrument of destruction. And we must be clear, that Buffy was not entirely being controlled by this third outside force, she took part in facilitating the events that have now killed thousands if not millions of innocent people and has brought the planet on the brink of being conquered by the other world demons. She owns up to it and accepts that this is now her war -

It's a pity that Angel's character up to this point has been so trashed that many fans don't even care what happens to him. Baring some great plot twist that allows for another path back to redemption - Angel has lost a great many fans, myself included.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Buffy in the early part of the series is perhaps the less complex character of all three - she presents a much less complex character and motivations than does Angel/Angelus - the depth of the older male character is immense compared to Buffy. Buffy comes across as very much an inexperienced young girl who had this "Huge Want" that overwhelms her life. Angel/Angelus on the other hand is so complex; tortured by life, by death, by murders and chaos. There's a reason that Buffy is called a Slayer and he is an vampire - the psychological implications and the metaphor is significant. His desparate need to connect with this young girl and "Slayer" is, I believe fundamentally based by his guilt of becoming Angelus. Buffy could be seen as the inversion of Drusilla, where he destroyed the innocence and gifted seer, drove her insane and then made her live that destruction as an immortal - with Buffy he could try and do the opposite. Buffy makes it possible to try and slay the demon that is forever within him.

Hm, I see what you're saying, but I think I'll have to disagree here. Maybe it was just my reading of it, but I don't think Angel/Angelus was more complex than Buffy in the earlier seasons of BTVS. He was always the same character, of course, but I agree with probably the majority of fandom on this- that character was never developed or explored enough on early BTVS aside from his function as Buffy's love interest. And even as Angelus, that part of Angel's narrative has always revolved around Buffy. We never saw the full extent of that experience from Angel's perspective. Oh, that division of self is definitely expanded upon on AtS, but not really when we're first introduced to him on BTVS.

I like your points on the psychological implications of their love for each other! Definitely something new to think about. 😛

Buffy and Angel/Angelus are no more a pure and beautiful love than Buffy and Spike - underneath all the surface there is such a darkness that Buffy is still extremely damaged emotionally.

And I agree here, a LOT. IMO, Buffy was emotionally stunted after everything she and Angel went through. I don't think this opinion is expressed often enough...to me, it's a large part of why all of her relationships since then have crashed and burned. No pun intended. 😛

 

[nmcil12]

Hm, I see what you're saying, but I think I'll have to disagree here. Maybe it was just my reading of it, but I don't think Angel/Angelus was more complex than Buffy in the earlier seasons of BTVS. He was always the same character, of course, but I agree with probably the majority of fandom on this- that character was never developed or explored enough on early BTVS aside from his function as Buffy's love interest. And even as Angelus, that part of Angel's narrative has always revolved around Buffy. We never saw the full extent of that experience from Angel's perspective. Oh, that division of self is definitely expanded upon on AtS, but not really when we're first introduced to him on BTVS.

I like your points on the psychological implications of their love for each other! Definitely something new to think about. 😛



And I agree here, a LOT. IMO, Buffy was emotionally stunted after everything she and Angel went through. I don't think this opinion is expressed often enough...to me, it's a large part of why all of her relationships since then have crashed and burned. No pun intended. 😛

I meant that Angel/Angelus is the more complex character with the history and psychological needs that are part of the character, not as the character was developed in the series. Angel/Angelus comes in as a character who is already "set-up," his story is one more of revealing the hidden layers and then after he comes back from the Acathla Hell, his story is one of separation. I have never seen their relationship as one that in anyway could have endured the parameters of its origins. Angel is damaged goods from the inception and his damaged status serves only to create a superb "rite of passage" story that is concluded in "Becoming" - Buffy finally becomes the "hero/heroine" and accepts the role and demands that her Slayer/Heroine must live by - but while the Slayer/Heroine is fully realized, Buffy the young woman has lost a great deal of her life force. The events of her relationship and need for Angel/Angelus have left her in the "damaged goods" status.

How Joss Whedon will resolve this, what I see as a tragic love relationship, will be seen in the coming last two issues. But what we do see right now is the destructive consequences of Buffy's emotional life. In one thing Angel/Twangel was correct when he tapped into her mind and pulled out the history of her love relationship with Angel/Angelus and post loves. Everything post Angel/Angelus in her love life is founded on trying to escape the damages.

That unresolved relationship with all its damages to Buffy, and now perhaps made even worst with this potential prophecy, has created just the opposite of Life and the metaphor of life created between the joining of the male and female.

How, Bangel Friends, am I suppose to conclude that this love between Buffy and Angel/Angelus is a good thing?

The worst thing thus far about Season 8 is that, unless there is still a huge plot twist coming, is that the Buffy-Angel/Twangel arc appears to be one of trying to have it both ways. Use the Angel/Angelus as Buffy's ultimate enemy and still have him as a viable hero/champion character for the future. The treatment of Buffy, in what many readers and fans now perceive her in the status of "willing victim" to Angel/Twangel is also something that will cause a lot of damage for the character and the Buffyverse.

 

[StarSlayer]

Buffy and Angel/Angelus are no more a pure and beautiful love than Buffy and Spike - underneath all the surface there is such a darkness that Buffy is still extremely damaged emotionally. How is it possible to understand her Buffy in Season 8 and her choice to reunite with the person whom she spent the entire year fighting against as a great enemy and killer and instrument of destruction. And we must be clear, that Buffy was not entirely being controlled by this third outside force, she took part in facilitating the events that have now killed thousands if not millions of innocent people and has brought the planet on the brink of being conquered by the other world demons. She owns up to it and accepts that this is now her war -

I can't believe I'm going to defend Bangel, lol. In regards to their relationship being pure, are you referring to their relationship in the comics or their relationship on the show? If we're referring to the comics, no problem there only because I don't know too much about them except for the past few issues (and summaries). But, if we're referring to the show (mainly BtVS), then I think I may have to disagree with that statement.

 

[zobothehobo]

I can't believe I'm going to defend Bangel, lol. In regards to their relationship being pure, are you referring to their relationship in the comics or their relationship on the show? If we're referring to the comics, no problem there only because I don't know too much about them except for the past few issues (and summaries). But, if we're referring to the show (mainly BtVS), then I think I may have to disagree with that statement.

I mean, I think it's the same purity from the two vampires. From Buffy... I don't think so because of the way it started. I think both Spike and Angel's love started from obsession so..

 

[StarSlayer]

I mean, I think it's the same purity from the two vampires. From Buffy... I don't think so because of the way it started. I think both Spike and Angel's love started from obsession so..

Yet, Angel had a soul when he fell in love with Buffy. Sure, it was creepy when Angel watched her sleep, lol, but I never saw his love for Buffy as an obsession...