Bangel vs. Spuffy

[PrincessBuffy16]

Maybe you'll be surprised here, but I haven't cried either. I do like the episode, and unlike you, I don't mind that "whining" and I enjoyed their speach, but I do get your point, and do understand why it's bugging you.

It's same for me.. I don't like Spuffy, but I do like them both as separate characters. I guess we have a different view on the couple, their acts and things they said in the episode and in the show as the whole..

And please don't start on IWRY, I think we all lost our words on that matter.. but I love it too much to just stand there and watch it getting bashed.😀

 

[Spikefan31]

Even as a Spuffy 'shipper, I'll admit I liked IWRY. More than Amends.

*Ducks from other Spuffies throwing tomatoes*

I'm a traitor, I know! *cries*

😀

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Even as a Spuffy 'shipper, I'll admit I liked IWRY. More than Amends.

*Ducks from other Spuffies throwing tomatoes*

I'm a traitor, I know! *cries*

😀

*Gasp* Traitor! 😛

Nah, I get how people like (love?) IWRY, even though I'm not a fan of it myself. It was quite well-written, I just really don't like those two characters together.

I don't think it has anything on Touched though. 😉 I really love how Spuffy has more of an edge and a friendship element in comparison to Bangel.

 

[StarSlayer]

As for your point on amends brittany i disagree
buffy didn't act on her feelings for angel because she didn't want him to go evil again.

She kept complaining how she had all this feelings for Angel, but she still couldn't be with him. If it was because she didn't want him to do evil again, then find a way to be together without him going completely evil. You have all the resources at your fingertips (Giles' books, Willow's computer skills and magic, etc), so use them. If you don't, stop complaining about it. That's just how I see it 🙂

She was in a really difficult position in terms of what angel had done before, how her friends felt, it wasn't as simple as you make out in regard to angel.

But it was. Although Angel killed Jenny, tortured Giles, and almost killed Buffy, she forgave him. She cared for him when he came back.

Here is a guy who loves buffy so much yet knows he can't act on his feelings, imagine the frustration of not being able to be with a person who you are besotted with and love to pieces. Furthermore angel has killed people again and he has to come to terms with that, understandably he finds it extremely hard what with the guilt so the fact he wants the pain to go away isn't surprising considering he has nothing to live for in his eyes because what he wants in not obtainable.

Like I said, then find a way, or fight it. Don't be a coward about it, as Buffy correctly says.

 

[zobothehobo]

Furthermore angel has killed people again and he has to come to terms with that, understandably he finds it extremely hard what with the guilt so the fact he wants the pain to go away isn't surprising considering he has nothing to live for in his eyes because what he wants in not obtainable.

So he cant be with Buffy sexually and that means he can't lean on her for emotional support? I don't get this logic. If the guilt is tough to deal with, let her know and she can help. You fight though the guilt and work to be a better man. You don't just die. That's leaving behind a legacy of all the things he's guilty for and nothing else. Nothing good. And trying to kill himself, saying he has nothing to live for while Buffy's still alive is incredibility selfish and kind of says he doesn't love her as much as he says. I mean, the mere fact she's in the world should be enough for him if he REALLY loved her that much. (note: I am NOT saying Angel didn't love Buffy. I'm pointing out the flawed logic.)

 

[dan k]

So he cant be with Buffy sexually and that means he can't lean on her for emotional support? I don't get this logic. If the guilt is tough to deal with, let her know and she can help. You fight though the guilt and work to be a better man. You don't just die. That's leaving behind a legacy of all the things he's guilty for and nothing else. Nothing good. And trying to kill himself, saying he has nothing to live for while Buffy's still alive is incredibility selfish and kind of says he doesn't love her as much as he says. I mean, the mere fact she's in the world should be enough for him if he REALLY loved her that much. (note: I am NOT saying Angel didn't love Buffy. I'm pointing out the flawed logic.)

That's the rational way of thinking i agree but at this stage Angel wasn't thinking like that. His grief, lonelyness and guilt meant he was extremely vulnerable and The First used that to shape him in terms of believing the best thing would be for him to die.

 

[zobothehobo]

That's the rational way of thinking i agree but at this stage Angel wasn't thinking like that. His grief, lonelyness and guilt meant he was extremely vulnerable and The First used that to shape him in terms of believing the best thing would be for him to die.

I know, but it's still selfish and irrational. That's why the episode doesn't do much for me. He's not acting out of love or compassion.. He's being selfish and stupid. You can say a lot about Spike but he didn't really fall for the first's mind games. I mean, it brainwashed him... but I don't count that as mind games. When it was playing with him while he was not active on his trigger... he didn't believe what it said. He was just as vulnerable and he didn't fall for the bunch of BS The First fed him. I don't know... it just seems like Angel should have been able to think more rationally. Or at least think with his heart. Or you know what, think at all. The First told him what to think and he though it. That's just.. weak.

 

[StarSlayer]

I know, but it's still selfish and irrational. That's why the episode doesn't do much for me. He's not acting out of love or compassion.. He's being selfish and stupid. You can say a lot about Spike but he didn't really fall for the first's mind games. I mean, it brainwashed him... but I don't count that as mind games. When it was playing with him while he was not active on his trigger... he didn't believe what it said. He was just as vulnerable and he didn't fall for the bunch of BS The First fed him. I don't know... it just seems like Angel should have been able to think more rationally. Or at least think with his heart. Or you know what, think at all. The First told him what to think and he though it. That's just.. weak.

I think at times though Spike did kind of fall for what the First said. Not as bad as Angel did, but there were times when Spike wanted it to end or to get out of the picture. Don't get me wrong...there were times when Spike did fight the First when it talked to him ("You're not here." "She believes in me." "She will come for me."), but there were other times when Spike believed the First was right. He thought Buffy would kill him in "Sleeper" because the First (as himself) said she would; he wanted Buffy to kill him in "Never Leave Me" because if the First was controlling him, he didn't want anyone to get hurt (he knew what he was capable of); and he wanted to leave town if the First still had something planned for him. Yet, in the end, Spike beat the First, as seen in "Lies My Parents Told Me." 🙂

 

[zobothehobo]

I think at times though Spike did kind of fall for what the First said. Not as bad as Angel did, but there were times when Spike wanted it to end or to get out of the picture. Don't get me wrong...there were times when Spike did fight the First when it talked to him ("You're not here." "She believes in me." "She will come for me."), but there were other times when Spike believed the First was right. He thought Buffy would kill him in "Sleeper" because the First (as himself) said she would; he wanted Buffy to kill him in "Never Leave Me" because if the First was controlling him, he didn't want anyone to get hurt (he knew what he was capable of); and he wanted to leave town if the First still had something planned for him. Yet, in the end, Spike beat the First, as seen in "Lies My Parents Told Me." 🙂

Sleeper when he thinks Buffy will kill him is the only time I can kind of see it. I mean in Never Leave Me it's not that he believes he's evil.. it's that he doesn't think there's anything they can do. Angel thought he was evil and that's why he wanted to die. Although I still think the Sleeper thing was Spike thinking a little bit. I mean, it did make sense Buffy might kill him. It didn't make sense Angel was an instrument of evil like The First made him believe in Amends.

 

[StarSlayer]

Sleeper when he thinks Buffy will kill him is the only time I can kind of see it. I mean in Never Leave Me it's not that he believes he's evil.. it's that he doesn't think there's anything they can do. Angel thought he was evil and that's why he wanted to die. Although I still think the Sleeper thing was Spike thinking a little bit. I mean, it did make sense Buffy might kill him. It didn't make sense Angel was an instrument of evil like The First made him believe in Amends.

In "Never Leave Me," I also think Spike doesn't believe he can change, even with a soul. He takes responsibility for what he's done in the past and in "Sleeper." As such, he doesn't believe it was anyone else but him who killed those people. "There's no one else." Yet, Buffy wasn't buying it. She knew there was a monster/demon inside him and he fought it to become a better man. He didn't really believe it until she said she believed in him.

And I agree about Angel. The First definitely wanted to use Spike as an instrument for his plan to beat Buffy and the Scoobies, and Spike believed it (with the trigger and all), but I don't know why Angel believed he was an instrument of evil, especially when he was brought back from hell. I would have loved to see Cordy smack some sense into Angel in "Amends," lol! 😀

 

[Kana]

I feel I have to defend my boy Angel here, lol.

So he had a moment of weakness, big deal...

It wasn't about him simply wanting to shag Buffy. The curse isn't about sex it's about happiness. This burden weighs on him heavily because unlike Spike, he has a limit to his happiness so his existence will always be more miserable.

In any respect Angel said A PART of him wanted to lose himself in Buffy. This is where I sympathize with him. It's the tempation he feels, to get rid of the guilt and frustration.

It's not about love or doing the right thing, it's about feeling worthless. As we know Angel's feelings of self-loathing go back to his father, and I'm loathe to the concept of "get over it". Such emotional stumbling blocks aren't that easy. All this said, I agree that his decision to kill himself aren't necessarily motivated by nobility, but cut the guy some slack. However whether he should die or not is a debatable point. It would take a potential champion out of the world and it would hurt Buffy but maybe he though in the long run, by ridding the world of Angelus he was doing everyone a favour. Mix motives may be playing a part in this. It's not simply either: "He's being noble" Or "He's just a douche,"

I like that it can show someone being weak and at their lowest. I just makes me empathize with him. To me that's why his redemption story for me is more resonant. People often talk about how Spike is naturally a better man and stronger, etc but it intrigues me to see someone who can be weak and fail and then at least try and become a better person.

However, I do agree with the whole Bangel thing about it being full of "I love you but we can't be togethers", but I don't think Amends in itself was a bad episode. I think it shows a weak Angel and a desperate Buffy.



As for Buffy, she's always been someone who is guided by emotions. Her trying to save Angel is totally in character for her.

She kept complaining how she had all this feelings for Angel, but she still couldn't be with him. If it was because she didn't want him to do evil again, then find a way to be together without him going completely evil. You have all the resources at your fingertips (Giles' books, Willow's computer skills and magic, etc), so use them. If you don't, stop complaining about it. That's just how I see it

This is assuming that Giles and Willow could do this. It perhaps should have been explored but I assumed that if Wes knew about paranormal prophylactics, it was understood it wouldn't work in Angel's case, but yes this should have been explored, I see this as more of a plot hole than a slight against Bangel though.

But it was. Although Angel killed Jenny, tortured Giles, and almost killed Buffy, she forgave him. She cared for him when he came back.

I have to agree with dan k, here, it's not that simple. It wasn't about making Angel go away because she didn't love him, it was about trying to put him out of her mind because she did love him and knew that the relationship could bring her pain. Buffy seems to be of the opinion that you can't choose whom you love.

I know, but it's still selfish and irrational. That's why the episode doesn't do much for me. He's not acting out of love or compassion.. He's being selfish and stupid. You can say a lot about Spike but he didn't really fall for the first's mind games. I mean, it brainwashed him... but I don't count that as mind games. When it was playing with him while he was not active on his trigger... he didn't believe what it said. He was just as vulnerable and he didn't fall for the bunch of BS The First fed him. I don't know... it just seems like Angel should have been able to think more rationally. Or at least think with his heart. Or you know what, think at all. The First told him what to think and he though it. That's just.. weak.

It's not about Angel being gullible, or being tricked. Angel's vulnerabilty was more existential than psychological. Feelings of worthlessness and depression ARE NOT ABOUT LOGIC. Having moments of weakness is not the same as being weak.

 

[zobothehobo]

It's not about Angel being gullible, or being tricked. Angel's vulnerabilty was more existential than psychological. Feelings of worthlessness and depression ARE NOT ABOUT LOGIC. Having moments of weakness is not the same as being weak.

Trust me, I know that. But these thoughts, these feelings of worthlessness and depression didn't really exist before Amends. He was confused about why he was back... but I didn't see signs of him being depressed or feeling worthless. The First capitalized on his confusion and insecurity about being back and PUT those feelings of worthlessness and depression in his head. I get that those feelings aren't about logic... but I'd just rather the champion of the people be a little more confident than that. With that said, I'll admit I'm being harder on Angel than I originally was because I know what happens and where his character goes. I guess the more I think about it, the more I dislike the character of Angel and his role as "champion of the people."

 

[StarSlayer]

I feel I have to defend my boy Angel here, lol.

So he had a moment of weakness, big deal...

It wasn't about him simply wanting to shag Buffy. The curse isn't about sex it's about happiness. This burden weighs on him heavily because unlike Spike, he has a limit to his happiness so his existence will always be more miserable.

I completely agree that the curse isn't about just sex. In "Amends," I know Angel wants to be with Buffy and Buffy wants to be with Angel, and it's more than just a sexual relationship. They want a future together and they want to be happy together. I personally just can't stand them whining about all the time. Where's Cordy and Wes to demonstrate, lol? 😀

In any respect Angel said A PART of him wanted to lose himself in Buffy. This is where I sympathize with him. It's the tempation he feels, to get rid of the guilt and frustration.

I understand he's tempted to want to be with the woman he believes he can be happy with, which would result in him becoming a monster again. But, the fact that Angel said, "he doesn't care" makes the whole situation selfish in my eyes. IMO, that's not true love. True love is about sacrificing your happiness for the person you love. In "Amends," Angel thought about his "happiness" over Buffy's, and he continued to do that as the season progressed. He didn't think once, even when Buffy was pleading with him to come inside, that he would be hurting Buffy by killing himself. We needed the act of snow to wake him up 😛

It's not about love or doing the right thing, it's about feeling worthless. As we know Angel's feelings of self-loathing go back to his father, and I'm loathe to the concept of "get over it". Such emotional stumbling blocks aren't that easy. All this said, I agree that his decision to kill himself aren't necessarily motivated by nobility, but cut the guy some slack. However whether he should die or not is a debatable point. It would take a potential champion out of the world and it would hurt Buffy but maybe he though in the long run, by ridding the world of Angelus he was doing everyone a favour. Mix motives may be playing a part in this. It's not simply either: "He's being noble" Or "He's just a douche,"

I like that it can show someone being weak and at their lowest. I just makes me empathize with him. To me that's why his redemption story for me is more resonant. People often talk about how Spike is naturally a better man and stronger, etc but it intrigues me to see someone who can be weak and fail and then at least try and become a better person.

I don't think Angel should have tried to kill himself (he is a true champion), but I'm 100% behind Buffy when she shows him some tough love (he needs to keep fighting and be strong). I actually love Angel as a character, but he gets on my nerves in that scene. How many times do we have to see Angel feel weak because he feels like he doesn't belong or isn't worthy? The woman (a slayer no less) that Angel claims to love, wants him to live. She understands his past, his history, and still wants to be with him. And more so, she still believes he can be a better man. She's told him this not just in "Amends," but in prior episodes. Yet, he still wants to meet the sun and die? I'm sorry but Angel makes me so mad in that episode, maybe because I know he's better than that. He's shown it in prior episodes.

As for Buffy, she's always been someone who is guided by emotions. Her trying to save Angel is totally in character for her.

I agree here and I have no problem with Buffy trying to save Angel. It's when she complains about her feelings, yet she still can't be with Angel that annoys me.

This is assuming that Giles and Willow could do this. It perhaps should have been explored but I assumed that if Wes knew about paranormal prophylactics, it was understood it wouldn't work in Angel's case, but yes this should have been explored, I see this as more of a plot hole than a slight against Bangel though.

After Spike was able to get his soul, I do agree that this idea should have been explored or explained more. If Spike could get his soul back, why couldn't Angel find a way to break the curse but keep his soul? Even if he couldn't, give me something hat satisfies the inquiry. Yet, I don't think I can assume Wes explored the idea and believed it wouldn't work in Angel's case because it's too significant to assume.

I have to agree with dan k, here, it's not that simple. It wasn't about making Angel go away because she didn't love him, it was about trying to put him out of her mind because she did love him and knew that the relationship could bring her pain. Buffy seems to be of the opinion that you can't choose whom you love.

You can't choose whom you love and I agree with Buffy there. "Love isn't brains children. It's blood." 🙂 For that reason, when it came to Buffy's feelings for Angel at that point, it is that simple. Despite what Angel did and how he could cause her pain, she still loved him. And I agree that Buffy did try to put Angel (or at least the idea of being with him) out of her mind because a relationship with him could cause her pain. However, although she tried to, she demonstrated time and again that she still loved him because she took care of him.

 

[Kana]

Trust me, I know that. But these thoughts, these feelings of worthlessness and depression didn't really exist before Amends. He was confused about why he was back... but I didn't see signs of him being depressed or feeling worthless.

Well we were seeing them for the first time. Think about prior to him losing his soul he was building up his confidence but after losing his soul and hurting the woman he loved added to his self-loathing. During the time between after he came back from hell and Amends, he was struggling with his sanity.

Just because Angel isn't as vocal as other characters about how he's feeling, it doesn't mean he's not thinking it. I'd argue he did have these feelings but the First merely made them worse.

The First capitalized on his confusion and insecurity about being back and PUT those feelings of worthlessness and depression in his head.

The way I'd liken it would be Xander in Hells Bells. The feelings were there but vision made the feelings worse.

I get that those feelings aren't about logic... but I'd just rather the champion of the people be a little more confident than that. With that said, I'll admit I'm being harder on Angel than I originally was because I know what happens and where his character goes. I guess the more I think about it, the more I dislike the character of Angel and his role as "champion of the people."

Which is fine to think that. Most people prefer Spike for that very reason. I've got a soft spot for characters like Angel. Characters who can be noble but also fail and be weak. There's nothing logical about depression, as I said before. I empathize with people who feel suicidal but manage to rise above these feelings, because I understand how it feels.

Will post more later.

 

[dan k]

I think people are overlooking what both Buffy and Angel have been through. Angel's having to deal with the fact that he has killed again and that any true happiness will see him turn into a monster. Furthermore he has been stuck in a hell dimension for a century, Buffy's distancing himself from him, he has no one yet people still seem to think he should be able to overcome all this.

Angel acknowledges the fact that he can't deal with this. "I'm weak" is how he puts it and after all he is suffered isn't it understandable that he just wants the pain to stop. I think many people feel like that in some stage of their lives, accusing Angel of being selfish i think is incredibly harsh considering the life this person has lead for hundreds of years.

In regard to Buffy all she knows is that she loves Angel. That is the only thing clear in her life. She feels guilty for loving him hence why all that frustration is released in Amends when she thinks she might lose Angel again. She realises she can't just ignore her feelings. On the other hand she knows how this will affect her friends so she is in a terrible position.

Many people point out how overdramatic this episode is. If you look at what has transpired before this episode then you realize that this drama is logical. Both these characters want each other, both have gone through personal torment. What's wrong with a bit of Snow and some nice music at the end to make everything better. As a fan of Bangel i love it, it is such a feel good end.

 

[StarSlayer]

I think people are overlooking what both Buffy and Angel have been through. Angel's having to deal with the fact that he has killed again and that any true happiness will see him turn into a monster. Furthermore he has been stuck in a hell dimension for a century, Buffy's distancing himself from him, he has no one yet people still seem to think he should be able to overcome all this.

Actually, for me it's quite the contrary. By looking at what they've been through, and suddenly having these feelings, is one of the reasons why the episode gets me mad.

Angel acknowledges the fact that he can't deal with this. "I'm weak" is how he puts it and after all he is suffered isn't it understandable that he just wants the pain to stop. I think many people feel like that in some stage of their lives, accusing Angel of being selfish i think is incredibly harsh considering the life this person has lead for hundreds of years.

Like I said, I agree with Buffy in what she says to Angel about being weak. He has the power do good (he's shown it in past episodes), but he's throwing everything away, everything he could be, if he burns. He needs to fight and be strong, and Buffy even says they can do it together. That shakes him up a bit, but it doesn't entirely convince him. I understand that everyone can have moments of weakness and I actually love seeing characters, especially heroes, go through them because it makes them stronger in the end. I just don't like how we it happen with Angel in this episode. For me, as I explained, he sounds selfish and I can't stand it. And, for the record, I hated this episode long before I shipped Spuffy, so I'm not being biased here.

In regard to Buffy all she knows is that she loves Angel. That is the only thing clear in her life. She feels guilty for loving him hence why all that frustration is released in Amends when she thinks she might lose Angel again. She realises she can't just ignore her feelings. On the other hand she knows how this will affect her friends so she is in a terrible position.

Like I said, I have no problem with Buffy feeling the way she does in this episode and getting mad at Angel for wanting to kill himself. The problem for me is that Buffy knows about her feelings, but still constantly complains that she can't be with Angel. "Amends" was like the last straw for me.

Many people point out how overdramatic this episode is. If you look at what has transpired before this episode then you realize that this drama is logical. Both these characters want each other, both have gone through personal torment. What's wrong with a bit of Snow and some nice music at the end to make everything better. As a fan of Bangel i love it, it is such a feel good end.

It's totally fine you love the episode dan 🙂 I know that a lot of people do. For me though, I just don't. I love drama, but when it's over-the-top, you lose me. I didn't have that feel-good feeling at the end when it snowed. I've watched the episode again to see if I'd missed something, but I still got the same reaction.

 

[dan k]

That's fine Brit. I just can't understand how you wouldn't be moved by the Snow and the music, but that's just me. 😀

 

[The Unspoken]

Those Powers that Be should really learn to include a disclaimer with their miracles, something like:

DISCLAIMER​

These magical snowflakes may not move you to tears and inspire you to dedicate your life to the pursuit of all that is good and pure. Please inquire with your local seer for more details​

 

[Kana]

I was rather busy before, but I'll try and finish what I wrote.

I completely agree that the curse isn't about just sex. In "Amends," I know Angel wants to be with Buffy and Buffy wants to be with Angel, and it's more than just a sexual relationship. They want a future together and they want to be happy together. I personally just can't stand them whining about all the time. Where's Cordy and Wes to demonstrate, lol?

I love that Bangel piss take from Wes and Cordy lol. Ahem, but in all seriousness I don't think he's all that whiney at this point. He was merely saying he wanted to be with Buffy and a PART of him didn't care that he'd lose his soul. I can relate to that. I think perhaps it's simply one of those subjective things, you know like thinking Buffy was a bitch in Season 7.

I understand he's tempted to want to be with the woman he believes he can be happy with, which would result in him becoming a monster again. But, the fact that Angel said, "he doesn't care" makes the whole situation selfish in my eyes. IMO, that's not true love. True love is about sacrificing your happiness for the person you love. In "Amends," Angel thought about his "happiness" over Buffy's, and he continued to do that as the season progressed. He didn't think once, even when Buffy was pleading with him to come inside, that he would be hurting Buffy by killing himself. We needed the act of snow to wake him up

For one thing there is happiness here. Angel also said, a PART of him doesn't care. We all have selfish sides and desires to give in to such temptations. Everyone wants love, no wants to be alone. I can't imagine what it's like to endure thr torture of hell or spend almost century alone, unsure of your place, being the only one of his kind.

It's not true love? I'm not sure how I feel about true love in and of itself. I'm not being cynical but I really believe you cannot seperate the love from the lover. There can be no perfection in love because there is no perfect person. Being weak at anyone time does not mean the love you feel isn't real. Just in the same way Spike hit, attempted to manipulate, and tried to rape Buffy and blamed her for his feelings but doesn't mean he didn't love her but because of his lack of the soul and psychological disposition at the time. He truly loved Buffy but he can still makes mistakes in regards himself and her.

Also, yes I'm sure he realised he'd be hurting Buffy but I think he most likely felt in the long run, she and the rest of the world, would be better without him. Yes it is a little self pitying but I don't think it's as dastardly as you're making out.

I don't think Angel should have tried to kill himself (he is a true champion), but I'm 100% behind Buffy when she shows him some tough love (he needs to keep fighting and be strong).

I think Angel had the potential to be a champion but IMO, Champions aren't born, they're made. He always a work in progress which is why I like him so much and love that his journey isn't linear or even always progressive. It's messy, up and down, but God, you know, he's not a bad soul. I guess I'm one of those softies who have sympathy for people who commit suicide. Um, yep Buffy was spot on but it doesn't mean I hate Angel in this episode. I think there are far worse things people do or can do.

I actually love Angel as a character, but he gets on my nerves in that scene. How many times do we have to see Angel feel weak because he feels like he doesn't belong or isn't worthy?

To be honest, the amount of flak he gets on the forums, I'm surprised he doesn't break out in tears everyday 😀. I don't mind broody self-loathing Angel, as I've said, I just relate to it. I don't see anything wrong with what he said. I just saw someone desperate and vulnerble. He just couldn't trust that he'd be able not to give in. He'd rather die than fail and kill Buffy or force Buffy to kill him. Again not exactly noble but not totally selfish. It just seems you're being hard on him when there are far worse things people do.

The woman (a slayer no less) that Angel claims to love, wants him to live. She understands his past, his history, and still wants to be with him. And more so, she still believes he can be a better man. She's told him this not just in "Amends," but in prior episodes. Yet, he still wants to meet the sun and die? I'm sorry but Angel makes me so mad in that episode, maybe because I know he's better than that. He's shown it in prior episodes.

Angel was so scared about becoming a killer again, it freaked him. Simply saying "Well, you don't be a killer" isn't all that simple. It is hard to fight and we can't know what it's like to have a limit on your happiness and have to fight the temptation of bloodlust everyday. He can be better and he does get better but because of that, I can forgive him for a moment of weakness.

After Spike was able to get his soul, I do agree that this idea should have been explored or explained more. If Spike could get his soul back, why couldn't Angel find a way to break the curse but keep his soul? Even if he couldn't, give me something hat satisfies the inquiry. Yet, I don't think I can assume Wes explored the idea and believed it wouldn't work in Angel's case because it's too significant to assume.

Yeah, normally I don't go outside the show for things like this but the fact that no one even mentions it is a little sloppy. Even if they had one episode and have Willow or someone say it's not possible would have satisfied me. For example in Orpheus if someone said, "Wouldn't it be better if he had a soul without the curse?" and have the dialogue run from there.

You can't choose whom you love and I agree with Buffy there. "Love isn't brains children. It's blood." For that reason, when it came to Buffy's feelings for Angel at that point, it is that simple. Despite what Angel did and how he could cause her pain, she still loved him. And I agree that Buffy did try to put Angel (or at least the idea of being with him) out of her mind because a relationship with him could cause her pain. However, although she tried to, she demonstrated time and again that she still loved him because she took care of him.

Yep! All this said, I really, really, really want Angel and Buffy to move on from Bangel now though. It's like when Joey from Friends says "Man get over it, it's been four years" lol. I mean canon-wise it's been longer hasn't it?

 

[caitaintdead]

To be honest, the amount of flak he gets on the forums, I'm surprised he doesn't break out in tears everyday 😀.

Hahaha, ohmigawd this made me laugh so hard.

Poor Angel. I'll cuddle him if no one else wants to.