Bangel vs. Spuffy

[VisionGirl]

While I agree with most of this, I really can't decide right now which ship I like better. But I do agree that Buffy loves Angel more and Spike loves Buffy more, but that's my opinion and I do think Angel loved her too.


It almost feels like tug-a-war where I'm the rope, and Bangel and Spuffy are both trying to their sides lol!

That's exactly how I feel, too LOL! Thus, the banner in my siggy!

 

[Spikefan31]

Spuffy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😀

That's my contribution to the debate. 😉

 

[Willow My Love]

I think Buffy loved Angel more than Spike. Angel was the one she truly wanted, but couldn't be with. And Spike was the one who was there for her, and loved her, but she couldn't seem to let herself love him back.

I must say I'm more for Bangel than Spuffy.

 

[BuffangelLovE]

OK, here's my 2c on this topic 🙂 :

Firstly: I'm a proud Bangel shipper!

Secondly: I love love LOVE Spike since the very first episode his character was introduced in... till the end of season five or halfway season six, when Spuffy sorta began...

In my opinion, Buffy and Spike just do not fit. Many people argue for Spike because he was capable of loving Buffy, although he had no soul. But what kind of love was that? Certainly he helped Buffy when she needed someone to talk after her friends had ripped her out of heaven. But once he realized that he enjoyed her confidence, he used it shamelessly in his favor, regardless of Buffy's inner life at this time. He was largely responsible for her alienation from her friends, who accompanied her all these years. Everything (the physical violence, Spike's mind games) went so far that Buffy developed a real hatred and disgust for herself, culminating in a nervous breakdown in Tara's arms. But I'm not saying that Buffy was the only victim here. Spike was also a victim - a victim of his own obsession with his love for Buffy. In his vampiric, twisted way he did love her. At times I felt really sorry for Spike, because he tried so hard to be loved back by Buffy and failed, because he didn't know how to do it. And foremost - Buffy wouldn't let him. She used him to ''feel anything'', even if it was pain and dispair about the situation she had maneuvered herself into by getting involved with Spike. This couldn't be healthy - for neither of them. The attempted rape at the end of the sixth season was another sad proof to it. In season seven Spike himself realized, that it wasn't love at all, because he could only understand love AFTER he regained his soul. But IMO this enlightenment was too late: after "Seeing Red" it was clear to me that Buffy could and should never forgive Spike. You can say that the soulful Spike cannot be blamed for the things he has done as a soulless monster. However, with Spuffy taken as a whole, Spikes actions in previous seasons do count. Because unlike Bangel, Spuffy had its both, soulful and soulless phases, while Bangel ended with the loss of Angels soul. I do not doubt that Buffy has come to appreciate the new Spike in season seven, partly out of pity (the soul & the First thing) - partly because something made her feel connected to him. I also believe that her statement ''he's in my heart'' is true. But what she really felt for him, was never made clear and is subject to various interpretations. Nonetheless: Spuffy was established in physical and psychological violence - which can't lead to any good. That's why I can't see any future for them.

Bangel was better because this relationship was not initially harmful to them. It was a deep, romantic, true love. And when it became harmful, they were both reasonable and unselfish enough to end it. The fact that they never stopped loving each other, though they tried to move on, proved to me that they probably are meant to be together.

So if I were to choose, I would always go for Bangel rather than Spuffy, which doesn't mean that Bangel was perfect. But with Spike Buffy would be even less well served. Besides, Spike is better off without Buffy anyway, as seen in Angel's season five.

 

[prophecygrrl]

But once he realized that he enjoyed her confidence, he used it shamelessly in his favor, regardless of Buffy's inner life at this time. He was largely responsible for her alienation from her friends, who accompanied her all these years. Everything (the physical violence, Spike's mind games) went so far that Buffy developed a real hatred and disgust for herself, culminating in a nervous breakdown in Tara's arms.

I don't see that at all. I think we may be entire opposites on the S6 spectrum, lol. I'm a Spuffy and you're a Bangel. I get that, we're locked in some eternal cosmic ship war, yada yada. Glad that's out of the way. 😀

But even without the shipper goggles, let me just say that I think it's very unfair to blame Spike of all people for Buffy's depression. Everyone in Season 6 is very disjointed for a reason. It really isn't Spike's fault that Buffy's grown apart from the Scoobies. They're the ones who tore her out of heaven, left her basically bankrupt (living in her house all summer and not paying any bills? Tara and Willow are two grown women and they can't buck up and get jobs?! Nonsense.) and abandoned her when she needed them most, (*cough*Giles*cough*) and were too wrapped up in their own problems to realize anything was wrong with Buffy (looking at you, Xander and your immaturity/cold feet, Willow and your magic addiction, Dawn and your insecurities). I wouldn't exactly be happy with them either.

 

[Marisa]

I don't see that at all. I think we may be entire opposites on the S6 spectrum, lol. I'm a Spuffy and you're a Bangel. I get that, we're locked in some eternal cosmic ship war, yada yada. Glad that's out of the way. 😀

But even without the shipper goggles, let me just say that I think it's very unfair to blame Spike of all people for Buffy's depression. Everyone in Season 6 is very disjointed for a reason. It really isn't Spike's fault that Buffy's grown apart from the Scoobies. They're the ones who tore her out of heaven, left her basically bankrupt (living in her house all summer and not paying any bills? Tara and Willow are two grown women and they can't buck up and get jobs?! Nonsense.) and abandoned her when she needed them most, (*cough*Giles*cough*) and were too wrapped up in their own problems to realize anything was wrong with Buffy (looking at you, Xander and your immaturity/cold feet, Willow and your magic addiction, Dawn and your insecurities). I wouldn't exactly be happy with them either.

I agree with this completely. Now that you mention it why did Willow and Tara not have a job? I understand caring for Dawn but that doesn't take to much time she is a young adult and has things like school for a few hours of the day. I guess I never looked at it seriously because jobs never seemed the most important in the buffyverse.
I feel like Buffy was depressed no matter what and it all started with her being ripped from heaven. The thing about Spuffy in this season is she was disgusted with herself for liking be with Spike. That means she did enjoy it on some level so maybe that added to her self hatred, but Buffy is a grown girl and knew what she was doing. I just think it is wrong to blame it all on Spike. Season 6 was a rough season for everyone like prophecygrrl said.

 

[Justme]

But even without the shipper goggles, let me just say that I think it's very unfair to blame Spike of all people for Buffy's depression. Everyone in Season 6 is very disjointed for a reason. It really isn't Spike's fault that Buffy's grown apart from the Scoobies. They're the ones who tore her out of heaven, left her basically bankrupt (living in her house all summer and not paying any bills? Tara and Willow are two grown women and they can't buck up and get jobs?! Nonsense.) and abandoned her when she needed them most, (*cough*Giles*cough*) and were too wrapped up in their own problems to realize anything was wrong with Buffy (looking at you, Xander and your immaturity/cold feet, Willow and your magic addiction, Dawn and your insecurities). I wouldn't exactly be happy with them either.

Tara and Willow were both at college and they had took guardianship of their friends younger sister which is a pretty big deal really, I mean they were what? 20 years old? Apart from the money they did a pretty good job, you expect them to give up their future (college) to raise Dawn?

Giles abandoning her was a judgement call, the reasons were explained and were good and pure. Yes sure I don't buy it either but the writers wanted rid of him without him being a bad guy so you have to accept that surely?

Dawn and her insecurities?! Are you kidding? The child loses her Mother and Sister in the space of months, that on its own without all the crazy key thing plus the responsibility for her sisters death. I don't think you can blame a child for this.

Xander and Willow yes, they didn't notice because of their own problems. But hey you can turn that around and say that Buffy didn't notice theirs either.

Saying alllll this however I don't blame Spike for Buffys depression either. I think the Spike/Buffy relationship was terrible and unhealthy but I think it was possible because of Buffys depression not the cause of it.

I don't ship "Spuffy" or "Bangel" but I do think that neither relationship was particularly healthy. Spikes was more "real world" abusive and Angels was just a little icky at times. Both were destructive, I think I come out in favour of Angel being the better one just because he was willing to walk away.

 

[Tsquared]

I don't ship "Spuffy" or "Bangel" but I do think that neither relationship was particularly healthy. Spikes was more "real world" abusive and Angels was just a little icky at times. Both were destructive, I think I come out in favour of Angel being the better one just because he was willing to walk away.

Soulless Spike, yes he would not have left Buffy. Souled Spike, yes he would have. Don't forget after Spike fought for his soul he and Buffy had talked about him leaving, Buffy didn't want him to because "she wasn't ready for him to not be there". 🙂

Oh, yeah and on the topic of Spuffy vs Bangel. At least Buffy's LAST word of the series was "Spike". Nah nah nuh boo boo! Hehehe. 😛

 

[Justme]

Soulless Spike, yes he would not have left Buffy. Souled Spike, yes he would have. Don't forget after Spike fought for his soul he and Buffy had talked about him leaving, Buffy didn't want him to because "she wasn't ready for him to not be there". 🙂

Yes but she tried to talk Angel out of leaving. She couldn't. He did the right thing.

 

[StarSlayer]

In my opinion, Buffy and Spike just do not fit. Many people argue for Spike because he was capable of loving Buffy, although he had no soul. But what kind of love was that?

Before I respond to your comments, I just want to say that I respect your opinions on Spuffy, although I pretty much disagree with everything you've said 🙂

Spike was certainly capable of loving Buffy although he had no soul. As Dru says in "Crush," vampire can love quite well, if not wisely. I'm sure people will differentiate what kind of love it was that Spike was feeling, but I believe it was real love. Spike demonstrated time and again that he could be loving without a soul.

Certainly he helped Buffy when she needed someone to talk after her friends had ripped her out of heaven. But once he realized that he enjoyed her confidence, he used it shamelessly in his favor, regardless of Buffy's inner life at this time. He was largely responsible for her alienation from her friends, who accompanied her all these years. Everything (the physical violence, Spike's mind games) went so far that Buffy developed a real hatred and disgust for herself, culminating in a nervous breakdown in Tara's arms.

First, I disagree that Spike was "largely responsible" for Buffy's alienation from her friends. It was largely Buffy who chose to distance herself from Dawn and her friends because of what she was feeling. In "After Life," after the group hug, she went outside because she wanted to be alone. In "Flooded," she went outside on the back-steps to get away from Giles, Willow, and everyone because she wanted to be alone. In "Life Serial," she went to Spike's cyrpt to escape her horrible day of trying to be someone she wasn't (a college student, a construction worker, and a shop girl). In all those instances, Spike was just there and didn't judge her for what she was feeling. That's why Buffy began feeling a level of comfort with him. So, when people say s6 Spuffy wasn't healthy, please. Maybe from "Smashed" onward (aside from their cute scene in "Hells Bells" 😀), but the beginning of the season had awesome moments!

From "Smashed" onward, Spike said himself that he was in Buffy's system now and she was going to crave him like he craved blood. And he was dead right. When Buffy found Spike's lighter, she had a flashback of their night together because although it was wrong, it felt good. It's one of the reasons she kept the lighter. She continuously went to him, not the other way around. She went to him in "Gone." She went outside the DMP to be with him. She went to his crypt in "Dead Things" and "As You Were." And what was Spike going to do? Say no to the woman he loved? He actually did in "Gone," and Buffy couldn't believe it. But there was a part of him that I think thought Buffy would wake-up one day and realize she did love him. Buffy said it wasn't love, but Spike said, "Not yet."

But I'm not saying that Buffy was the only victim here. Spike was also a victim - a victim of his own obsession with his love for Buffy. In his vampiric, twisted way he did love her. At times I felt really sorry for Spike, because he tried so hard to be loved back by Buffy and failed, because he didn't know how to do it. And foremost - Buffy wouldn't let him. She used him to ''feel anything'', even if it was pain and dispair about the situation she had maneuvered herself into by getting involved with Spike. This couldn't be healthy - for neither of them. The attempted rape at the end of the sixth season was another sad proof to it.

Spike did have an obsession with Buffy...in s5. "Intervention" was the turning point though. His obsession diminished, if not entirely, when Buffy told him what he did for her and Dawn was real. And as Buffy mentions in "Conversations with Dead People," Spike did love her in his own crazy way, but she knew that he did. The problem in s6 wasn't that Buffy wouldn't let Spike fall in love with her (since he told her time and again that he couldn't change his feelings, although he tried). The problem was that Buffy wouldn't allow herself to completely love Spike because he was a soulless vampire. She did have feelings for him, but the fact was Spike didn't have a soul and that held her back. That's one of the reasons why she felt horrible about using him. If she couldn't love him, than it was not okay to keep leading him on. The bathroom scene was a harsh reminder that Spike couldn't be completely good without a soul. He couldn't control that demon inside him. It had little to do with love because Spike did love Buffy.

In season seven Spike himself realized, that it wasn't love at all, because he could only understand love AFTER he regained his soul. But IMO this enlightenment was too late: after "Seeing Red" it was clear to me that Buffy could and should never forgive Spike. You can say that the soulful Spike cannot be blamed for the things he has done as a soulless monster. However, with Spuffy taken as a whole, Spikes actions in previous seasons do count. Because unlike Bangel, Spuffy had its both, soulful and soulless phases, while Bangel ended with the loss of Angels soul. I do not doubt that Buffy has come to appreciate the new Spike in season seven, partly out of pity (the soul & the First thing) - partly because something made her feel connected to him. I also believe that her statement ''he's in my heart'' is true. But what she really felt for him, was never made clear and is subject to various interpretations.

Yet, the thing is, Buffy did forgive Spike. The fact that Spike got a soul was MAJOR for Buffy. It wasn't out of pity...it was love, even tough love at times. In "Never Leave Me," she says that she saw him change, she saw his penance. He risked everything to become a better man and he not only could be, but already is. "You can be. You are." Even though he didn't necessarily see it, because he felt so guilty and shameful over what he did not only to Buffy but to all his victims, Buffy saw it. She believed in him. And I really don't want to go into the double standard between Spike and Angel/Angelus, but basically, both soulless Spike and soulless Angel (Angelus) did things to Buffy and her friends that caused heartache. It's not a clean slate when Angel gets his soul back because he still feels guilty over everything (namely in s3).

Nonetheless: Spuffy was established in physical and psychological violence - which can't lead to any good. That's why I can't see any future for them.

Fortunately, Spuffy did lead to good, if not something beautiful 🙂 Two mortal enemies falling in love? For me, it's a no brainer. I choose Spuffy over Bangel any day, lol 😀

 

[Tsquared]

Yes but she tried to talk Angel out of leaving. She couldn't. He did the right thing.

Not necessarily. Angel left after the "current" apocalypse was done and through. Spike didn't leave because Buffy asked him, and because the current apocalypse at that point was still looming right over their shoulders. Him leaving would have meant a very high chance of Buffy and the rest of the world ending. You cannot really compare the two scenarios because they're essentially the exact same. Just one was during an earlier point of the "apocalypse", in different seasons, and between two different lovers of Buffy.

Spike was willing to leave for Buffy. 🙂

Fortunately, Spuffy did lead to good, if not something beautiful 🙂 Two mortal enemies falling in love? For me, it's a no brainer. I choose Spuffy over Bangel any day, lol 😀

Yeah, the mortal enemies falling in love is so much cooler than the cliche latter. 😀

StarSlayer agrees: And before that, it was "I love you." Put the two together

WIN! 😀

 

[StarSlayer]

Yeah, the mortal enemies falling in love is so much cooler than the cliche latter. 😀

Way cooler, although some may argue that the concept is a cliche too, lol! Yet, the way it developed was anything but cliche 😀

 

[zobothehobo]

Tara and Willow were both at college and they had took guardianship of their friends younger sister which is a pretty big deal really, I mean they were what? 20 years old? Apart from the money they did a pretty good job, you expect them to give up their future (college) to raise Dawn?

Uh... YES! Yes I do expect them to give up their future to raise Dawn! If they want custody of a minor, they have to be willing to do EVERYTHING they can for her. I mean come on. You wouldn't say to Buffy "don't drop out of college to take care of your sister you have custody of" so why would you say it to Willow and Tara?

That being said, I don't think they'd have to drop out of college to take care of dawn. PLENTY of college kids have jobs. I go to community college and most of my classes are full of full time students with full time jobs. Many of them are adults with families... children included. It is possible and it's rather ridiculous to me that anyone would suggest it's not. It's also ridiculous to me that Willow and Tara didn't go get jobs. They knew something would have to be done soon... It was almost like they were waiting for the resurrection spell. If it worked, they'd just let Buffy deal with it... and if it didn't, THEN they'd go looking for jobs. Which seems incredibly rude and disrespectful to me. I mean, if you're going to resurrect someone... at least give them a nice place without a lot of worries to come into.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Tara and Willow were both at college and they had took guardianship of their friends younger sister which is a pretty big deal really, I mean they were what? 20 years old? Apart from the money they did a pretty good job, you expect them to give up their future (college) to raise Dawn?

Giles abandoning her was a judgement call, the reasons were explained and were good and pure. Yes sure I don't buy it either but the writers wanted rid of him without him being a bad guy so you have to accept that surely?

Dawn and her insecurities?! Are you kidding? The child loses her Mother and Sister in the space of months, that on its own without all the crazy key thing plus the responsibility for her sisters death. I don't think you can blame a child for this.

Xander and Willow yes, they didn't notice because of their own problems. But hey you can turn that around and say that Buffy didn't notice theirs either.

Valid points. I'm a pretty big fan of Dawn (my bb gets a lot of hate in fandom! 🙁) so I didn't particularly relish pointing out her problems too, but she DOES contribute to Buffy's depression. She has her reasons for feeling insecure or in need of attention. But it doesn't make her entirely blameless.

Er, people can get part time jobs in college. Certainly all the problems with Willow in Season Six didn't arise from her being a busy full-time student. Willow seemed to have plenty of time to practice magic and hurt everyone she loved. And in the context of Season Six and all the real life problems it sets out to deal with, it makes sense that people should take up more responsibility. The problem is that a lot of them didn't. But I agree, I will love Willow and Tara (okay, maybe mostly Tara) for helping to raise Dawn.

Giles left. I understand his reasons and (if I remember correctly) he apologized later. Doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake.

I still think there's plenty of blame to go around in Season Six. It's unfair to put it all on one character. They ALL had problems, some more than the rest.

Anyway, back to Spuffy and Bangel...😉

 

[zobothehobo]

Now with that rather off topic post I just posted out of the way, here's my thoughts on the current discussion.

OK, here's my 2c on this topic 🙂 :

Firstly: I'm a proud Bangel shipper!

Secondly: I love love LOVE Spike since the very first episode his character was introduced in... till the end of season five or halfway season six, when Spuffy sorta began...

I'm a proud Spuffy shipper and I love love LOVE Spike too. I have loved him from the first second I saw in in School hard all the way to the end.

In my opinion, Buffy and Spike just do not fit. Many people argue for Spike because he was capable of loving Buffy, although he had no soul. But what kind of love was that?

A love that defies the odds.

Certainly he helped Buffy when she needed someone to talk after her friends had ripped her out of heaven. But once he realized that he enjoyed her confidence, he used it shamelessly in his favor, regardless of Buffy's inner life at this time.

Could you please give me examples of how he used this shamlessly in his favor?

He was largely responsible for her alienation from her friends, who accompanied her all these years. Everything (the physical violence, Spike's mind games) went so far that Buffy developed a real hatred and disgust for herself, culminating in a nervous breakdown in Tara's arms.

No he was not. Spuffy resulted from the alienation from her friends... it did not cause it. Buffy had been growing apart from them and started to distance herself at the end of season 5. Remember Willow's trip in Buffy's catatonic mind? She hated herself then because she effectively "gave up." She snapped out of it... but to win that fight, she willingly jumped to her death. I do believe it was more sacrifice than suicide... but she did knowingly and willingly jump to her death.

Then there's season 6. She's in heaven. She's done. I thought that was made pretty clear by the whole "knowingly and willingly dying" thing but I guess not (to the scoobies). They pulled her back. She was already distant from them. As soon as she clawed herself out of that grave, she was distant from them. She tried to be with them, to act like she was "normal," to act like she was happy to be with them... but she couldn't. She wasn't happy to be with them. THAT'S a large reason she hated herself. She wasn't happy to be with her friends. The same friends that had been with and stood by her for years... and she wasn't happy to be with them. She figured there must be something wrong with her to think and feel that way. Also there was that she did feel comfortable with Spike. She knew he wouldn't judge her for the feelings she had and she couldn't understand why. She had no idea why she felt comfortable opening up to "an evil soulless thing." He was "everything she was supposed to be against," but she kept "letting him in." And she had no idea why. The answer to her question is simple: the friends who she was supposed to open up to wouldn't have understood... but more than that, they wouldn't have WANTED to understand. Spike wanted to understand as much as Buffy would tell him. She knew that. He was soulless at that point, so she didn't want him to understand... but he wanted to. He wanted to be there for her as best he knew how. Her friends did too.... but not really. They had their own problems that needed to be tended to and Buffy knew it. Honestly, I believe they're more responsible for her alienation than anyone.

But I'm not saying that Buffy was the only victim here. Spike was also a victim - a victim of his own obsession with his love for Buffy.

I'm not too sure after Intervention it could be called obsession with Buffy. I don't think he was obsessed with her, I think he cared for her.

Also, I'd like to point out, it could be said Angel's got an unhealthy obsession with Buffy too because in season 5 of Angel we find out he's got a PI spying on her in Rome. If you ask me, that's scarier and more obsessive stalker freak than the BuffyBot.

In his vampiric, twisted way he did love her. At times I felt really sorry for Spike, because he tried so hard to be loved back by Buffy and failed, because he didn't know how to do it.

We agree on something! I always feel so bad for Spike because he doesn't know how to love her. That's the main reason the bathroom scene hurts me so bad. Not because of the graphic nature of it... but because he's trying so hard to get her to love him and to show his love for her but he has no idea how to do it in a way she'll respond.

And foremost - Buffy wouldn't let him. She used him to ''feel anything'', even if it was pain and dispair about the situation she had maneuvered herself into by getting involved with Spike.

I'd like to point out again, the "feeling anything" wasn't just disgust at herself for being sexually involved with Spike. It was also feeling comfortable to let her guard down. And feeling disgusted he was who she could let her guard down with.

This couldn't be healthy - for neither of them.

No, it wasn't. But not everything in live is healthy... and sometimes the most unhealthy things you do are necessary, like in this case.

The attempted rape at the end of the sixth season was another sad proof to it. In season seven Spike himself realized, that it wasn't love at all, because he could only understand love AFTER he regained his soul. But IMO this enlightenment was too late: after "Seeing Red" it was clear to me that Buffy could and should never forgive Spike.

I feel like you've got this all wrong. Spike didn't realize he didn't love Buffy. He realized she didn't love him. He realized he couldn't understand how to show his love without his soul and he realized she couldn't love him without his soul. And she did forgive him. Because he "risked everything to be a better man" after that. She "saw his penance" for that crime and all the others he committed as a soulless creature.

You can say that the soulful Spike cannot be blamed for the things he has done as a soulless monster. However, with Spuffy taken as a whole, Spikes actions in previous seasons do count. Because unlike Bangel, Spuffy had its both, soulful and soulless phases, while Bangel ended with the loss of Angels soul.

Honestly, I think this makes Spuffy better than Bangel rather than worse than Bangel. Spike fought for his soul because he loved Buffy. He hurt Buffy with his love while he was soulless, but he didn't mean to and fought for his soul to make up for it. Angelus did want to hurt Buffy when he hurt her. He wanted to hurt her because he loved her (when he was souled). Soulless Spike loved Buffy. Soulless Angel did not, he hated her. I have no clue how someone could say that the fact that Angelus hated Buffy whereas Soulless Spike loved her makes Spuffy somehow less than Bangel.... but that's besides the point.

I do not doubt that Buffy has come to appreciate the new Spike in season seven, partly out of pity (the soul & the First thing) - partly because something made her feel connected to him. I also believe that her statement ''he's in my heart'' is true. But what she really felt for him, was never made clear and is subject to various interpretations.

I do not believe Buffy's feeling for Spike in season 7 had anything to do with pitty. In Selfless when she comes to tell him to get out of the basement, if it was pitty she was feeling we would have seen a "real" scenario like the one The First played out. But what we saw was anything but pitty. And I think the ambiguity of Spuffy is part of what makes is so fantastic. In real live, fairytale love isn't real. But ambiguous unrequited love... that is real.

Nonetheless: Spuffy was established in physical and psychological violence - which can't lead to any good. That's why I can't see any future for them.

That's understandable. I can see a future for them because I believe they can overcome the violent nature that started the relationship, and even use it to their advantage, but I can understand how someone would say that I'm just being overly optimistic.

Bangel was better because this relationship was not initially harmful to them. It was a deep, romantic, true love. And when it became harmful, they were both reasonable and unselfish enough to end it.

Not really sure I agree with the "both" part. Buffy really didn't have a choice in the matter. And Spike was unselfish enough to end it (although, I'm not sure season 7 Spuffy was at all harmful to her). He said he should leave town in Get it Done but Buffy said no, that she needed him. And she did need him... not only to physically fight in this apocalypse, but she needed him emotionally. He is what gave her the strength, courage, and ability to believe in herself the way she did in Touched and End of Days. Without his love and faith in her, she couldn't have defeated The First, in a way, she knew that.

The fact that they never stopped loving each other, though they tried to move on, proved to me that they probably are meant to be together.

No one ever stops loving their first love. So on Buffy's side, this argument is a bit ridiculous. On Angel's side, as I said earlier, I think it was a bit of an obsession.

So if I were to choose I would always go for Bangel rather than Spuffy, which doesn't mean that Bangel was perfect. But with Spike Buffy would be even less well served. Besides, Spike is better off without Buffy anyway, as seen in Angel's season five.

How was Spike better off without Buffy in Angel season 5? I just think that's an interesting statement to make.

 

[BananaBuffy]

Buffy and Spike's love is a huge thing, it overcomes all odds and is sort of a forbidden thing. Spike proved that he loved Buffy by standing by it no matter how many times he was rejected. He was rejected a lot after all, epsecially in Season 5 and even when he was sleeping with her in Season 6. However, I think he knew deep down after awhile that she would at the very least grow to love him but even if that hadn't been the case he wouldn't have cared. He said it all in his speech in Touched, which is the most heartfelt speech ever. He said that he didn't love her because of anything that had to do with him, it was because of who she was. He said all the things that every girl wishes they could hear a man say.

The Bangel love started out unharmful and beautifully romantic, nobody can deny that. The Spuffy love did start out sexual and violent and passionate. Buffy and Angel were two lovers who felt they were destined to be together but when things got tough they couldn't really survive on the other side, no matter how much they tried to. Buffy and Spike survived no matter what and pushed through the ups and downs because they loved each other. Their love was something more than romance and something more than a beautiful picture, it was real. Their relationship was about emotion. It was about pain and it was about suffering but it the end it was about triumph. They, although they didn't end up together as a whole, triumphed. They triumphed over Bangel to be completely and utterly honest about the subject.

Both Spike and Angel did bad things. We cannot deny that, none of us. We can't say that the others are ignoring the bad things the vampire in their ship did because the other one did things just as bad, possibly worse. They both did things when souless that they would live to regret. They did bad things even when soulful in some cases but Angel didn't choose to keep his soul. Sometimes I think he's much happier without it, without the remorse. But Spike fought for his soul, he fought for Buffy because he wanted her to love him. No, he wanted to be a better man. We can't say that Angel ever did such a thing. Spike felt when he didn't have a soul. He felt real feelings. Love, remorse--any type of strong feelings you can have and that is what caused him to get his soul. He wanted to be the type of man that Buffy could love, someone worthy of her because he knew that he wasn't.

Neither ship is perfect, we all no that. No ship is perfect. No relationship on TV or in real life can have a perfect smooth journey without ups and downs. Some come pretty close, such as Tillow but that doesn't mean everything never crashes down upon them. It does, hard. Buffy and Angel were never perfect and Buffy and Spike never came close to perfect but if we're choosing, I think Spuffy triumphs any day.

 

[Spikefan31]

A love that defies the odds.

I love this statement! Spuffy forever! 😀

 

[Justme]

Uh... YES! Yes I do expect them to give up their future to raise Dawn! If they want custody of a minor, they have to be willing to do EVERYTHING they can for her. I mean come on. You wouldn't say to Buffy "don't drop out of college to take care of your sister you have custody of" so why would you say it to Willow and Tara?

That being said, I don't think they'd have to drop out of college to take care of dawn. PLENTY of college kids have jobs. I go to community college and most of my classes are full of full time students with full time jobs. Many of them are adults with families... children included. It is possible and it's rather ridiculous to me that anyone would suggest it's not. It's also ridiculous to me that Willow and Tara didn't go get jobs. They knew something would have to be done soon... It was almost like they were waiting for the resurrection spell. If it worked, they'd just let Buffy deal with it... and if it didn't, THEN they'd go looking for jobs. Which seems incredibly rude and disrespectful to me. I mean, if you're going to resurrect someone... at least give them a nice place without a lot of worries to come into.

Well Buffy is her sister and Willow and Tara aren't would be the main reason. Also I wouldn't say that to Buffy straight away, Buffy didn't drop out immediately either, she did exactly what Willow and Tara did. Try to do college and child rearing without getting a job.

Also Willow and Tara didn't just take over Buffys responsibilities as far as Dawn went, they were also patrolling and fighting evil.

College
Bringing up a child
Fighting evil on a nightly basis.

I think it's fair that they didn't get jobs, their schedule was pretty full.

 

[zobothehobo]

Well Buffy is her sister and Willow and Tara aren't would be the main reason. Also I wouldn't say that to Buffy straight away, Buffy didn't drop out immediately either, she did exactly what Willow and Tara did. Try to do college and child rearing without getting a job.

Also Willow and Tara didn't just take over Buffys responsibilities as far as Dawn went, they were also patrolling and fighting evil.

College
Bringing up a child
Fighting evil on a nightly basis.

I think it's fair that they didn't get jobs, their schedule was pretty full.

Taking up Buffy's duty of patrolling is no excuse. Neither is not being biologically related to Dawn. If they wanted to accept the responsibility of taking care of her, they should have done that. Dropping a couple classes here and there to be able to get a job sounds reasonable to me. Also, again, I know a lot of people who go to college full time, have full time jobs, and families. No, they don't patrol and fight evil every night, but they do have to be home to take care of their young children. Dawn was 16. She was old enough to find a job herself (I have NO clue why that option was never bought to the table either) and old enough to take care of herself more or less. She could do her homework on her own, she could make herself dinner, she could take a shower without being told, she could go to bed at a reasonable time without being instructed to.... There is still absolutely no reason to dump money troubles on Buffy after pulling her out of wherever she was. Even thinking they were pulling her out of hell, they could have been a bit more... what's the word... thoughtful? I mean, pulling someone out of hell and dumping a heap of money troubles on her as soon as she's stable enough to think straight? That sounds really inconsiderate and just plain rude.

And Buffy dropped out as soon as it was made apparent she was needed at home more than she needed to continue her education at that moment. She had pretty much stopped going to classes before that. I'm not suggesting Willow and Tara drop out of school, just dropping one or two classes and making some sort of attempt to be financially independent and responsible adults. I think it sounds like a reasonable request.

 

[Justme]

Taking up Buffy's duty of patrolling is no excuse. Neither is not being biologically related to Dawn. If they wanted to accept the responsibility of taking care of her, they should have done that. Dropping a couple classes here and there to be able to get a job sounds reasonable to me. Also, again, I know a lot of people who go to college full time, have full time jobs, and families. No, they don't patrol and fight evil every night, but they do have to be home to take care of their young children. Dawn was 16. She was old enough to find a job herself (I have NO clue why that option was never bought to the table either) and old enough to take care of herself more or less. She could do her homework on her own, she could make herself dinner, she could take a shower without being told, she could go to bed at a reasonable time without being instructed to.... There is still absolutely no reason to dump money troubles on Buffy after pulling her out of wherever she was. Even thinking they were pulling her out of hell, they could have been a bit more... what's the word... thoughtful? I mean, pulling someone out of hell and dumping a heap of money troubles on her as soon as she's stable enough to think straight? That sounds really inconsiderate and just plain rude.

And Buffy dropped out as soon as it was made apparent she was needed at home more than she needed to continue her education at that moment. She had pretty much stopped going to classes before that. I'm not suggesting Willow and Tara drop out of school, just dropping one or two classes and making some sort of attempt to be financially independent and responsible adults. I think it sounds like a reasonable request.

I suppose I do have to concede here. Yes I suppose if they are willing to take on that role then they should do all it entails. I just think it's a little ungracious to slate them for not getting a job on top of everything else they took on, they did a pretty big thing taking over all Buffys (and Joyces and the dust never really settle there in S5) responsibilities I think they deserve some credit for that despite any errors of judgement.