Bangel vs. Spuffy

[Tsquared]

It took me a while to figure out which of these two ships I liked the most, because in all honesty I love both Bangel and Spuffy. I know I couldn't ship both though because I'd always be a little biased in debates, and I am - I consider myself a Spuffy. Now I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Buffy does love Angel more than Spike, who are we kidding to deny that. But I'm going to go out on another limb and say Spike loves Buffy more than Angel does, and it didn't even take seasons 6-7 to come to this conclusion. I guess it all comes down to the old argument about did Spike truly love Buffy without a soul, or was it just desire, lust, and metal. Yet that answer would still leave us with the undeniable devotion this "monster" gave and gave, even if it meant brutal torture and giving up his own existence. How can that not be love?

I look at it this way, we take Buffy and Angel and put them in an abandoned mansion together. Take away Angel's soul and Buffy is being sucked through a portal that leads to a hell dimension. Now, let us put Spike in the picture. Take his chip away, hell even take his soul away, but you better be damn sure that monster is going in after her.

 

[white avenger]

This "first love" people are talking about when discussing Bangel doesn't tell the whole story. When Angel returns in seasons 5 and 7 Buffy is a grown Woman yet she still feels these intense feelings for Angel. The feelings she has for him will never alter so the idea that they will need to fall in love again in a more mature fashion is something i don't agree with.

Buffy's feelings for Angel have never changed. She loves him now, tomorrow and will do for the rest of her life. She may have moved on from him but she's not fallen out of love with him. The problem i have is witj "the fall in love with again". In my eyes they don't need to do that as even when they are apart they are still in love with one another. You see that in "Chosen" and you also see it in "The Girl in question" when Angel still acts like a lovesick puppy.

The problem with the Season 5 and 7 reunions is that they never last long enough for the more mature characters to actually "get to know" each other again. The current Buffy and Angel are no more the same people that they were in Sunnydale than the two former lovers in high school are the same as the ones who meet again at their 25 year Class Reunion. That's what I mean when I say that they might some day fall in love all over again. Post "Chosen" Buffy and Post "Not Fade Away" Angel are two totally different people from the two star crossed lovers who were in Sunnydale for 3 years. We can see the change as far back as in "Sanctuary" when Angel told Buffy to "stay out of his town." We see it even more in "Chosen" when Buffy sends Angel back to LA when she desperately needs every fighter who she can call on. The Buffy that we knew in Seasons 2 and 3 would have kept Angel there and sent Spike away to "form a second front" (yeah, right, Buffy. Quick thinking, there)

Both characters are older, wiser, have suffered more, lost more, seen more, and done more, than their counterparts back in Seasons 1 thru 3. They have changed enough to actually, arguably, be two different people, people who will have to get to know each other all over again before either one can really be sure that they can be together for more than that "quickie" that Spike described. Maybe they can love each other again for the long haul. Probably, especially since Joss would almost certainly write it that way, they would. But there is still the chance that the new Buffy and the new Angel just aren't a couple anymore.

Especially since Buffy loves Spike the most. (The founder and chairman of Adopt-A-Bangel here, I have to tell it like I see it)

 

[dan k]

The problem with the Season 5 and 7 reunions is that they never last long enough for the more mature characters to actually "get to know" each other again. The current Buffy and Angel are no more the same people that they were in Sunnydale than the two former lovers in high school are the same as the ones who meet again at their 25 year Class Reunion. That's what I mean when I say that they might some day fall in love all over again. Post "Chosen" Buffy and Post "Not Fade Away" Angel are two totally different people from the two star crossed lovers who were in Sunnydale for 3 years. We can see the change as far back as in "Sanctuary" when Angel told Buffy to "stay out of his town." We see it even more in "Chosen" when Buffy sends Angel back to LA when she desperately needs every fighter who she can call on. The Buffy that we knew in Seasons 2 and 3 would have kept Angel there and sent Spike away to "form a second front" (yeah, right, Buffy. Quick thinking, there)

Both characters are older, wiser, have suffered more, lost more, seen more, and done more, than their counterparts back in Seasons 1 thru 3. They have changed enough to actually, arguably, be two different people, people who will have to get to know each other all over again before either one can really be sure that they can be together for more than that "quickie" that Spike described. Maybe they can love each other again for the long haul. Probably, especially since Joss would almost certainly write it that way, they would. But there is still the chance that the new Buffy and the new Angel just aren't a couple anymore.

Especially since Buffy loves Spike the most. (The founder and chairman of Adopt-A-Bangel here, I have to tell it like I see it)

Although i agree that they have changed a lot as people i still think their love for one another never changed.

To me whenever they met they still felt the same way the always felt for one another.

In "I will remember you" both confess to feeling strange and their feelings for one another are still clearly there, in "The Yoko factor" Buffy thanks Angel after he says he doesn't like Riley showing even then in my eyes that she still saw him as her man.

Furthermore although you talk about their meetings in season 5 and 7 as brief they were packed with meaning. In that season 5 episode Angel is Buffy's rock. "I wouldn't have been able to see out the night" is reflective of how much love and respect Buffy has for Angel and that's a year after they last saw each other.

The idea that time passing means that they don't love each other anymore is absurd to me. They wouldn't need to fall in love again because they are still very much in love. They are different people sure but they still share that connection.

If they had it there way they would be together like i said before. Fate conspires that they must be kept apart and they both live their lives dealing with the pain of not being together, that is especially the case with Angel.

My main point though is that just because people change doesn't mean they stop loving a certain person. I'll change as i grow older for instance but i'll always love the people that mean the most to me. In Buffy's case that will always be Angel.

 

[white avenger]

Although i agree that they have changed a lot as people i still think their love for one another never changed.

To me whenever they met they still felt the same way the always felt for one another.


Furthermore although you talk about their meetings in season 5 and 7 as brief they were packed with meaning.

This is something that we can discuss for as long as the Boards still exist and we will never see eye to eye (which is perfectly alright with me as long as we try to remain civil.)

To me, the very fact that they have changed, grown, and evolved, while their feelings for each other have not been allowed to do so, is an indication that, as sincere as those feelings were, they might very well be, for want of a better word, outdated, hence the need to be together for more than what Spike referred to as a "quickie," before they both go back to their lives. I have no doubt that they loved each other, and that they always will, just the same as I still love the girl that I was with in college. But, as much as I still love her, what we had then is in the past. Those two people, in effect, no longer exist. It is, I believe, exactly the same with Buffy and Angel.

Given the time to be together again, to learn about the changes that they have both gone through since the end of Season 3, they might fall in love again, or, if you prefer, rekindle the feelings that they had back then. But what they develop is not, can not, and should not, be the same thing that they had back then. Love, like people, has to grow, mature, and evolve. It can't do that unless the people involved can be together while that evolution is taking place.

As for my comment to you that their reunions in Seasons 5 and 7 were only momentary, I accidentally hit the "OK" button before I could finish the comment. It should have been "I would pot more stock in the Seasons 5 and 7 reunions if they had been more than just momentary encounters. Those brief moments didn't allow enough time for them to "catch up" with what had been going on in their individual lives since they had been apart."

I hope, whether you agree or disagree, that that clarifies what I was attempting to say.

 

[dan k]

It definately clarifies what you said and i respect yoru opinion. The only issue i had was with the idea that they were no longer in love. To me they both live their lives still madly in love with each other and just have to bear it, which Angel himself mentions frequently.

The idea that they'd have to fall in love all over again for me doesn't sit right. What i'am trying to say is that they don't need to fall in love again or rekindle their feelings for one another because those feelings are still there. That explains there behaviour while they are around each other. Each time they have met since season 3 its like Angel had never left. The chemistry, the feelings, the way they act all points to them still being madly in love with one another, but that's just my view.

The love they have won't change or evolve as you put it. It will still be the same love they shared back in season 2 and season 3 no matter how old they are or what experiences they've since faced. That's there type of love that they share.

 

[white avenger]

The only issue i had was with the idea that they were no longer in love.

The love they have won't change or evolve as you put it. It will still be the same love they shared back in season 2 and season 3 no matter how old they are or what experiences they've since faced. That's there type of love that they share.[/QUOTE

Anything, from water to love, has to flow, evolve, and change over the passage of time, or it stagnates, rots, or petrifies. In order for a love to survive, it HAS to change to include the changing conditions that time brings. Separation, such as Buffy and Angel have had, except for encounters too brief to allow any such change or growth, inhibits or even stifles everything about a love affair except the memory of how good it was when it was still new. It may survive that way in a limited manner for as long as the memories last, but in order to grow or even stay current, the principals need to be physically and emotionally in contact on at least a regular and reasonably lengthy basis. Love can't survive indefinitely, no matter how strong it once was, and stay current if it is fed only by memories of what happened in the past.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Anything, from water to love, has to flow, evolve, and change over the passage of time, or it stagnates, rots, or petrifies. In order for a love to survive, it HAS to change to include the changing conditions that time brings. Separation, such as Buffy and Angel have had, except for encounters too brief to allow any such change or growth, inhibits or even stifles everything about a love affair except the memory of how good it was when it was still new. It may survive that way in a limited manner for as long as the memories last, but in order to grow or even stay current, the principals need to be physically and emotionally in contact on at least a regular and reasonably lengthy basis. Love can't survive indefinitely, no matter how strong it once was, and stay current if it is fed only by memories of what happened in the past.

Agreed with everything you've said - regarding in real life. but sadly, we can't apply these principles and truths to Bangel, because they're a totally unrealistic fairy-tale romance, all about soul mates and first love being true love and all that. Of course Buffy and Angel's love has changed. Evolved? Maybe not. But it has endured the test of time. It's not the same love they had in the beginning, it's either stronger or weaker arguably, but it's still there, unfortunately as the case may be. And I also agree that loves needs to be fed in order to last. This is a reason I don't believe in long-distance relationships. It just puts too much pressure on people. In the case of Buffy and Angel, they're been apart for years, grown apart, been thorugh so much in life not together. As I've said before, even if their love is still as strong as it ever was, how can they "pick up where they left off"? It's just so absurd to me.

Even in "Forever" when Buffy is clearly interested in other people, having sex thoughts about Spike, and still mourning over Riley, she accepts Angel back for support like he was never even gone. There is a connection there. It's unbreakable. I think no matter what Angel does Buffy will always love him. I can only hope that Joss will deside in the end what I know is true - that despite her love for him, he's not right for her. Besides, doesn't it make for a better story when love is lost? My question is; how many times will Buffy have to lose her love? How many times will Angel have to give it up?

Buffy and Angel appear to be a special case. Their love has survived, florished, even after all these years, even after they've both fallen for other people. Unfortuntely though, the Universe is supporting their love, cheering them on, perhaps even influencing and strenghenign their love. So, yeah, maybe their love will survive indefinitely, as nauseating an idea that is to entertain.

 

[white avenger]

Agreed with everything you've said - regarding in real life. but sadly, we can't apply these principles and truths to Bangel, because they're a totally unrealistic fairy-tale romance, all about soul mates and first love being true love and all that. Of course Buffy and Angel's love has changed. Evolved? Maybe not. But it has endured the test of time. It's not the same love they had in the beginning, it's either stronger or weaker arguably, but it's still there, unfortunately as the case may be. And I also agree that loves needs to be fed in order to last. This is a reason I don't believe in long-distance relationships. It just puts too much pressure on people. In the case of Buffy and Angel, they're been apart for years, grown apart, been thorugh so much in life not together. As I've said before, even if their love is still as strong as it ever was, how can they "pick up where they left off"? It's just so absurd to me.

Even in "Forever" when Buffy is clearly interested in other people, having sex thoughts about Spike, and still mourning over Riley, she accepts Angel back for support like he was never even gone. There is a connection there. It's unbreakable. I think no matter what Angel does Buffy will always love him. I can only hope that Joss will deside in the end what I know is true - that despite her love for him, he's not right for her. Besides, doesn't it make for a better story when love is lost? My question is; how many times will Buffy have to lose her love? How many times will Angel have to give it up?

Buffy and Angel appear to be a special case. Their love has survived, florished, even after all these years, even after they've both fallen for other people. Unfortuntely though, the Universe is supporting their love, cheering them on, perhaps even influencing and strenghenign their love. So, yeah, maybe their love will survive indefinitely, as nauseating an idea that is to entertain.

If we simply accept the fact that Buffy and Angel are the one true immutable force in the universe, that their relationship is carved in stone, that they can never truly "be" with anyone else and be completely happy, then there can be no discussion on this or any other subject pertaining to them, which would take a whole lot of the fun out of being here. Rather, I prefer to see them as real, living, if heroic, characters, subject to all of the strengths and susceptible to all of the weaknesses that make real humans, human.

As for their reunion in "Forever" and its complications and ramifications, the only thing that we actually saw was Angel comforting and showing sympathy to someone who he cared for very much and who was facing a tragedy in her life. Hardly the moment to try and analyze how much their individual lives and their interpretations of what their life's mission had become in the 2 years since they had spent any appreciable time together.

As far as Buffy and Angel's love enduring the test of time, I still contend that, given the brevity of their time together at each reunion, that test has never actually been addressed. In those brief moments, all that they have actually had could arguably be little more than the memory of a relationship that is almost entirely in their past. If Buffy were aware of the events of "I Will Remember You," that might have helped to carry those feelings over to their later encounters, but, since that is not the case, the fact remains that they don't really know whether their feelings for each other are still real, or just memories of the relationship that they shared for slightly over 2 years in Sunnydale.

 

[dan k]

As far as Buffy and Angel's love enduring the test of time, I still contend that, given the brevity of their time together at each reunion, that test has never actually been addressed. In those brief moments, all that they have actually had could arguably be little more than the memory of a relationship that is almost entirely in their past. If Buffy were aware of the events of "I Will Remember You," that might have helped to carry those feelings over to their later encounters, but, since that is not the case, the fact remains that they don't really know whether their feelings for each other are still real, or just memories of the relationship that they shared for slightly over 2 years in Sunnydale.

My opinion is that they know their feelings for each other are real and they know that because whenever they meet they always have that moment of reconciliation no matter how brief that moment is.

Its an instant thing between both of them. They feel compelled to go to one another and embrace almost whenever they meet. Sometimes they fight the urge, but that urge is constantly and always will be there no matter how much time they spend away from each other.

 

[dan k]

I think its both attraction but also love. The look they have in their eyes isn't representative of just attraction and lust. They really do care about each other hence why Angel came in season 5 and season 7 and how they were so eager to meet after Buffy came back in season 6.

 

[Kana]

Hmmmm.

To be honest I was tempted just to type that.

Alternatively, I'll talk a little about Bangel.

I personally don't think you can seperate the love from the lover and also relationships don't happen in a vacuum, i.e, they are not immune to circumstance. These sound like obvious statements, but I honestly think they have relevance in this discussion. To put it bluntly, if the above statement isn't true then surely Buffy and Angel would still be together. "But they still love each other" comes the predictable reply. Well, ok, maybe they do. No, scratch that, I believe they do but let us look at things more closely.

Now, as I sip my pinot grigio, I contemplate the words ofBuffy over the years in regards to Bangel. Now two sets of quotes stick in my mind.

BUFFY: Angel, when I look into the future, a-a... all I see is you! All I want is you.

ANGEL: I know the feeling.

Aww, now isn't that romantic? Buffy at 16, sees her future with Angel. Now couples can get married at say 18 and stay happily married for the rest of their lives. GREAT! So of course you can fall in love at a young age and stay in love. This argument is huge triumph for Bangels but you better believe I'm going to throw a spanner in the works...

Recently my brother got married and just before the event I was reading a book full of thought experiments. Now how can we predict how our future self will react to future circumstances. Also, will we still be in love with our partner in 10 years time, 29 years time or 50 years from now. Can we really tell? Now it's tempting to say it's all about faith but can we really commit ourselves to that? Now if we have no reason not to, then I suppose it's possible. Is this the case with Buffy and Angel?

BUFFY
What was the highlight of our relationship? When you broke up with me or when I killed you? I'm well aware of my stellar history with guys...

This happened subsequent to first quote. The circumstances were different and the broke up.

We all know how the rest of the speech goes, but how can 'Always and Forever' become, "Sometimes" and years "IF EVER"?

When we get married, we make a commitment. I logically, cannot, know what's going to happen. We don't know if we'll still find them attractive or if they'll cheat on us in the future. We place faith that these things wont happen based upon our past and current experiences, but more importantly we make that investment. If we make a commitment, we (hopefully) make sure we get that return. It doesn't sound romantic but for this purpose, it isn't about being romantic it's about figuring out whether two people are in it for the long haul.

We work on it, time spent communication etc. Now does Bangel have either?

Did, Buffy say Angel you're the one so wait for me? The 'If Ever' is an important part of the speech we can't ignore. When we get married, me promise to love and cherish blah, blah etc. We don't say "I occasionally comtemplate our future but I don't really think that far a head, I don't know exactly who I'll end up with but some time in the future, maybe I'll settle down. Aww, how NOT romantic, but you know realistic.

Now maybe I'm being judgmental but I get WA point about brief encounters. To me proximity is extremely important. Now again, we'll get the predictable reply about long distance relationships but at the very least the validity of those relationships is communication and if Damage is anything to go by, then clearly Buffy and Angel haven't been communicating and for the record paying people to stalk your ex is not the same thing (TGIQ). It's about time spent and working on the relationship. Exes could always get toether kiss and make moony eyes at one another, but from where I'm standing that's not a relationship and certainly not an indication that things will work out. Hell, I know that from past experiences.

Now before Spuffy fans cheer, thinking they've got another recruit, that's simply not that case. I loved Bangel, and I love Spuffy, but I love Buffy more. I love that she decided she shouldn't define herself through an ever present man (or girl). The cookie dough speech is my favourite ship speech because it's so wonderfully 'anti-ship'. It's about self-discovery and understanding. If she was, is and is going to be, irrelevant, then she wouldn't have made the speech.

I suppose for shippers, they make a certain commitment. They identify themselves in the relationship or see the beauty of the relationship parellelled in their own, but what we need to understand, is that Buffy hasn't made such a commitment yet. If she had, then she'd be with Spike or Angel by now and not just for fleeting moments of kissage or sex.

If Buffy makes that declaration of investment (so romantic), then it will be self evident that she's chosen but until then, it's all about the dough.

 

[white avenger]

Now before Spuffy fans cheer, thinking they've got another recruit, that's simply not that case.

Maybe, because you AREN'T a rabid shipper like so many of the rest of us are, your perspective can be seen as being influenced more by logic and realism that loyalty to a particular ship, and no, I'm not saying that just because you partially agree with me.

Love is something that has to be worked at or it fades away.e can cling to that memory and mistakenly think that the memory is the same as the real thing, but in actuality, it really isn't. That's why I insist that, if Buffy ever do actually, some time in the future, settle into a long term relationship, it will be because they have fallen in love all over again.

 

[StarSlayer]

Ah, the great debate. 🙂 Well, for me, I'm a total Spuffy fan. I did like Bangel in seasons 1 and 2, but they just got too annoying for my taste during season 3. Curse or no curse, I really couldn't stand their whining about wanting each other, yet they couldn't be together. I mean even Romeo and Juliet, the classic "star-crossed lovers" didn't whine! They got married a few days after they met! 🙂

However, I respect Bangel fans. And I do believe Buffy and Angel loved each other and were soulmates to an extent. I don't ignore what the show and comics (from spoilers I've read) present. But, even if Buffy ends up with Angel in the end, I'll still support Spuffy 100% because to me, some of the greatest love stories don't have a happily ever after although you knew the couple was perfect for each other. For that reason, I don't need that "hallmark" ending to love my ship because the story of Spuffy is one of the greatest love stories already 😀 Yet, that happy ending for Spuffy would be a nice icing on the cake 😀

 

[Marisa]

Ah, the great debate. 🙂 Well, for me, I'm a total Spuffy fan. I did like Bangel in seasons 1 and 2, but they just got too annoying for my taste during season 3. Curse or no curse, I really couldn't stand their whining about wanting each other, yet they couldn't be together. I mean even Romeo and Juliet, the classic "star-crossed lovers" didn't whine! They got married a few days after they met! 🙂

However, I respect Bangel fans. And I do believe Buffy and Angel loved each other and were soulmates to an extent. I don't ignore what the show and comics (from spoilers I've read) present. But, even if Buffy ends up with Angel in the end, I'll still support Spuffy 100% because to me, some of the greatest love stories don't have a happily ever after although you knew the couple was perfect for each other. For that reason, I don't need that "hallmark" ending to love my ship because the story of Spuffy is one of the greatest love stories already 😀 Yet, that happy ending for Spuffy would be a nice icing on the cake 😀

I am with you I loved Buffy and Angel in seasons 1 and 2 season 3 they had their cute moments. The thing that always makes me lean more toward Buffy and Spike is that they had to go through so much and really became one. I like what you say even if she ends up with Angel in my mind she will be with Spike :tongue3:

 

[Spikefan31]

I'm just going to throw this in:

The word "Spuffy" sounds so much cooler than "Bangel" 😛

 

[VampireJason]

Oh my god how long has this debate gone on now?

I like both 'ships for different reasons. But if I had to with which one I like better it would be Bangel. For a long time I thought Buffy and Spike were all wrong for each other, I think I even held a cross to my TV when I saw them kiss in OMWF. But BTVS S7 changed my mind and I saw some real potential with ensouled Spike and Buffy. Then Buffy kissed Angel as soon as he showed up in Sunnydale which convinced me that even though Spike fought so hard for Buffy, she always love Angel more and I think Spike himself knows that

 

[Marisa]

Oh my god how long has this debate gone on now?

I like both 'ships for different reasons. But if I had to with which one I like better it would be Bangel. For a long time I thought Buffy and Spike were all wrong for each other, I think I even held a cross to my TV when I saw them kiss in OMWF. But BTVS S7 changed my mind and I saw some real potential with ensouled Spike and Buffy. Then Buffy kissed Angel as soon as he showed up in Sunnydale which convinced me that even though Spike fought so hard for Buffy, she always love Angel more and I think Spike himself knows that

Whose to say she wouldnt act the same way toward Spike after not seeing him for a while? :tongue3:
I agree that Buffy will always love Angel but I disagree that she loves him more than Spike. I think she loves them both in different ways. I think she loves Angel and always will he was her first everything. But I also think that she loves Spike very much but in such a different way as a more mature Buffy. I think their relationship is what she needed. She needed not only a partner but a person who she could depend on and trust in the end that is what she got from Spike. He was there for her in a different way then all of her other boyfriends. Overall I am saying that Buffy loved Spike and always will just like she does Angel.

 

[Misty]

It took me a while to figure out which of these two ships I liked the most, because in all honesty I love both Bangel and Spuffy. I know I couldn't ship both though because I'd always be a little biased in debates, and I am - I consider myself a Spuffy. Now I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Buffy does love Angel more than Spike, who are we kidding to deny that. But I'm going to go out on another limb and say Spike loves Buffy more than Angel does, and it didn't even take seasons 6-7 to come to this conclusion. I guess it all comes down to the old argument about did Spike truly love Buffy without a soul, or was it just desire, lust, and metal. Yet that answer would still leave us with the undeniable devotion this "monster" gave and gave, even if it meant brutal torture and giving up his own existence. How can that not be love?

While I agree with most of this, I really can't decide right now which ship I like better. But I do agree that Buffy loves Angel more and Spike loves Buffy more, but that's my opinion and I do think Angel loved her too.


It almost feels like tug-a-war where I'm the rope, and Bangel and Spuffy are both trying to their sides lol!

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Oh my god how long has this debate gone on now?

This debate is old as world itself.

 

[VampireJason]

Well at least Bangel was mutual, Spuffy was very much one-sided for a long time. As for right now I'm not sure if I want Bangel to end up together in Season Eight or Nine because of the way Joss is portraying it. And Spuffy... I think it's safe to say, especially with Scott Allie writing parts of it, there is no real future for Spuffy in the romantic sense, unless Angel dies that is which I don't see that happening anytime soon.