Bangels: Did Buffy love Spike romantically?

[Kana]

I was looking through some the shipper threads and I remember posting about whether any Bangels believed that Buffy loved Spike romantically.

The brief backround is that many Spuffies have admitted that Buffy loved Angel romantically whether they enjoy or approve of the relationship. However I've struggled to see many Bangel who admit that Buffy loved Spike romantically. Many claim to see nothing but a beautiful friendship but why is that? I mean there is always my very polished theory that the lines are less defined with Spuffy and it could be that Bangels are all about the 'lines'.

But seriously without polluting WA's thread, let us be specific. Bangels, do any of you think Buffy loved Spike romantically and if not why not?

 

[GrrArghx]

I don't think so but I think it's unfair to be accused of 'not admitting to it'. It's as if we're just in denial, which is definitely not the case. Xaphania posted a thread, with a few articles talking about how we all watch the same show, but we don't all see the same show and that's what it boils down to for me.

'Not wanting to see any love between Spuffy' is not the case for me. I simply can't.

In Season 6, I think it's pretty obvious Buffy wasn't in love with Spike. She was seriously depressed and used Spike because she knew that he was in love with her. He was the only one that she felt she could turn to, because her friends had ripped her from heaven and in her words, forced her to live in hell. Spike was her way of alleviating the pain a little bit.

In Season 7, after Spike had came back with a soul, they had a chance to legitimately become very good friends and develope a strong bond and friendship, which is what I see between them. When I look at S7 Spuffy, I see a strong emotional connection between two people who care for each other greatly. BUT, in my opinion that doesn't equate to romantic love. And, I think by Chosen, Buffy might have realized she could love Spike, but I don't think she did, which I think is the significance of his "No, you don't, but thanks for saying it" line. He knew she didn't love him the way he had wanted her to, and when I see the look in her eyes once he says that to her, to me it shows that they both understood then, the extent of her feelings.

As I said, that's how I viewed and percieved it. Now, if we want to talk about denial, then I'd just say Spuffy never happened 😛

But, seriously though, lol. The lack of romantic love I see from Buffy in the Spuffy relationship has nothing to do with denial or me admitting anything. I just don't see it and I don't think that has anything to do with Bangel either. When Spuffy happened, both Buffy and Angel were in very different places in their lives and Buffy alludes to this in Chosen when she talks about how she's not ready to settle down yet.

My opinion of Spuffy has nothing to do with my love for Bangel, and I think that's where a lot of people are mistaken.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I totally agree with GrrrArghx3, I don't think its a matter of not admitting it.

I personally just don't see anything romantic between Buffy and Spike.

Definitely absolutely nothing in Season 6, and in Season 7 there was a strong connection, but I don't see it as romantic love. They were starting a foundation, but I don't think it had gotten there yet.

 

[dan k]

I can't really make up my mind. At this moment i tend to believe that Buffy loved Spike but i don't know if it was romantic love. The whole issue confuses me if i'am honest. Bangel is straight forward, with Spuffy it is really hard to differentiate what kind of feelings Buffy had for Spike.

So in all honestly all that i am sure about at this moment is that Buffy loved Spike, whether it was romantic well i don't know.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I personally just don't see anything romantic between Buffy and Spike.

See, this is what I find so hard to believe. Can you honestly say there was no romance in 'Touched', when she was stroking his arm as he slept? Or the look of love on her face in "Showtime" when she comes to cuts him free of her restraints? How can you honestly say there was no romance there?

Just out of curiosity; what is your definition of romance? Of love? I think it's different then mine, which lies the problem.

Buffy and Spike loved each other. Their characters were written with romance in mind, and the actors were directed to "play the romance." Joss has SAID that Buffy's romantic interest WAS Spike in the later seasons. Buffy SAID she loved Spike.

*sigh*

Now, I get if you don't prefer Spuffy - but denying what's obviously there...I just don't get it. We Spuffies can't stand Bangel, but we don't deny that she loves him.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to "start" anything here - I just honestly don't understand how you can deny something that is so blatant to me.

 

[Kana]

Sorry if this thread came across as a Bangel lynch. It's more of an observation that Bangels tend not to believe that Buffy loved Spike romantically, and see it more as friendship.

I think perhaps Joan has hit it on the head in terms of how we define romance. Don't get me wrong, I could easily (and may well do) start a thread looking at how Spuffies often see Bangel as immature in terms of love. It's more about recognising patterns.

Don't get me wrong, it's not about Bnagel failing to admit the scientific objective truth, I was more curious if there were any Bangels who believed Buffy loved Spike romantically and if there similar reasons for why they don't believe they were in love. So far I don't think I've spoken to a single Bangel who believes it, so I'm wondering if there is a pattern or reasoning behind it. Legit question in my opinion.

 

[white avenger]

I'm obviously not a Bangel, but if I may be indulged for a moment, I would like to propose one question for consideration. Can anyone honestly say that Buffy's relationship with Angel (with soul) was any more romantically advanced by the end of Season 1 than her relationship with Spike (with soul) was by the end of Season 7? Most of the real Bangel romance came into its own in Season 2, a year AFTER they met. Judge the Spuffy relationship as it actually began in Season 7, after Spike regained his soul, and the differences between the two diminish considerably. What might have happened between Buffy and Spike in a televised Season 8, we will never know, but I personally believe that the beginnings of their actual romance in Season 7 would have grown into something at least equal, if not superior, to anything that Buffy and Angel ever had in Season 2.

 

[Kana]

I'm obviously not a Bangel, but if I may be indulged for a moment, I would like to propose one question for consideration. Can anyone honestly say that Buffy's relationship with Angel (with soul) was any more romantically advanced by the end of Season 1 than her relationship with Spike (with soul) was by the end of Season 7? Most of the real Bangel romance came into its own in Season 2, a year AFTER they met. Judge the Spuffy relationship as it actually began in Season 7, after Spike regained his soul, and the differences between the two diminish considerably. What might have happened between Buffy and Spike in a televised Season 8, we will never know, but I personally believe that the beginnings of their actual romance in Season 7 would have grown into something at least equal, if not superior, to anything that Buffy and Angel ever had in Season 2.

While I do believe Buffy and Spike loved each I do always admit that: "The lines were less defined" so I suppose Spuffy never got the chance to reaffirm the romantic connection whereas Bangel did. For some, the Brandy song rings true, almost doesn't count and admittedly just because things developed that way for Buffy and Angel doesn't mean it would have done for Spike and Buffy.

So again this is posed again for Bangels, does it have to be about 'holding hands?' or does it have to be more obvious? I can honestly understand both sides but I really want to see if there any Bangels out there who feel the Spuffy love.

Btw WA loving the input and Spuffies are welcome to chime in with friendly discussion as always.

 

[Eleftheria]

In s6 Buffy did sth she has never done before. She used someone. Despite the fact that that someone was a soulless vampire, it was obvious he had feelings for her. So Buffy took advantage of them. Spuffy in s6 is a mistake by both sides: Buffy's and Spike's. Spike takes what he wants(which is not wrong since Buffy starts it) but afterwards he shows that these feelings are not so strong IMO, since he keeps pulling her back to darkness, with words like "you came back wrong", "you belong to the darkness with me", "animal" and "killing or boinking the Slayer gives satisfaction".The only time I ever liked s6 Spuffy is when he sees her for the first time and "everynight I save you". Anyway, s6 spuffy is not romance. It is "using each other for pleasure". Buffy has to feel something and she chooses pleasure from someone she doesn't love, or worse rough pain.

In s7, I think Buffy felt sorry for everything about s6. The fact that she used him and whatever happened in SR. She knew it was wrong all along. I admire Buffy cause both in Angel's case and now in Spike's she was able to tell the difference between someone soulless and an ensouled person. There was forgiveness, there was friendship and there was mutual support. She saw him as the only person she could depend on especially after Empty Places and she was right. I always saw the "I love you" as a big thank you for everything he has done for her.

She does love him, but not romantically. He is in her heart because he earned his place there. But romance is sth different. Romance IMO is sth spuffy never had.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

If I belived, Buffy loved Spike, I would admit it. Why not? I admit Buffy loved Riley, so there would be no problem for me admitting Buffy loved Spike too.
I really don't belive she loved him that way. I don't think Buffy is a liar when she said "I love you" to him. She did loved him, but not in the way we are talking about here. It always bugged me why he said "No you don't. But thanks for saying it." Maybe he felt that's not kind of love he wanted. Because I really don't want to belive Buffy played with strong word like that only because she knew there's no tommorrow.

 

[Eleftheria]

His answer means IMO that he doesn't consider himself worthy of being loved by Buffy or because deep inside he knows that the only love which can come from her is friendship love. Because maybe he realises what the "I love you" means. He would certainly like to be loved romantically by her but I think he sees the truth somehow.

 

[Flannen]

Like others have said, it isn't a case of not admitting it, or denying it. I didn't 'see' that she was completely in love with Spike by the end of S7. I don't care if Joss and Buffy have both said it; neither of them made me believe it.

Joan, it isn't about denying what was obviously there. If it was obviously there for me then I wouldn't be making this post. Maybe it is because we perceive love and romance differently, but either way just because the Spuffies can admit that Buffy loved Angel but not vice versa doesn't make us 'worse' (for want of a better word).

I think that Buffy had feelings for Spike by the end and they definitely had a mutual connection and appreciation for each other, but was she in love? No. Did she make me think that? Nope. I do think that had he not have sacrificed himself at the end, they were definitely building the foundations towards a romantic relationship but she wasn't in love with by the point. She might have been realising she was capable of it, or ready to do it, but she wasn't there yet.

And I also think that whatever she was feeling for Spike at that time was scuppered by Angel's reappearance, reminding her that her whole heart isn't up for grabs anyway.

 

[Kana]

Like others have said, it isn't a case of not admitting it, or denying it. I didn't 'see' that she was completely in love with Spike by the end of S7. I don't care if Joss and Buffy have both said it; neither of them made me believe it.

As I've said, it's all opinion that we are discussing. I'm just seeing if my theory holds up which it seems to do so. It's certainly not my intention to chnage your mind though.

Joan, it isn't about denying what was obviously there. If it was obviously there for me then I wouldn't be making this post. Maybe it is because we perceive love and romance differently, but either way just because the Spuffies can admit that Buffy loved Angel but not vice versa doesn't make us 'worse' (for want of a better word).

Not at all. It wasn't an incrimination, more seeing if my theory holds up and also why.

 

[white avenger]

Joan, it isn't about denying what was obviously there. If it was obviously there for me then I wouldn't be making this post. Maybe it is because we perceive love and romance differently, but either way just because the Spuffies can admit that Buffy loved Angel but not vice versa doesn't make us 'worse' (for want of a better word).

I do think that had he not have sacrificed himself at the end, they were definitely building the foundations towards a romantic relationship but she wasn't in love with by the point. She might have been realising she was capable of it, or ready to do it, but she wasn't there yet.

And I also think that whatever she was feeling for Spike at that time was scuppered by Angel's reappearance, reminding her that her whole heart isn't up for grabs anyway.

(Since I was invited to toss in my opinions, you'll all just have to put up with me now)

My point above was that Buffy and Spike were as far along toward building a romantic relationship by the end of Season 7 as Buffy and Angel were at the end of Season 1. Maybe they weren't "there" yet by some people's view, but I see it, and I'm quite certain that I'm not alone in that view. Unfortunately, the Spuffy relationship was nipped in the bud, not by Angel showing up, but by the show being canceled. Another season, and Buffy would have been able to not only convince Spike that she was, indeed, IN LOVE WITH HIM, but would have also reconciled herself to some simple facts.

1) It is quite possible to be in love with more than one person at the same time, and that she was actually in love with both Angel AND Spike, each differently, but both equally, and that she would be perfectly happy living out the rest of her life with either man, and,

2) At that point in her life, even though finally she recognized and could admit #1 above, she honestly wasn't, and might never be, a candidate for the white picket fence, happy ever after sort of relationship that would allow any kind of long term relationship.

Granted, all of this is speculation, based on something that we never had and never will have, a televised Season 8 with Spike still on Buffy's show, but that is the direction that I saw things developing, and I don't think that I am the only one who saw it.

And as for anything that was developing between her and Spike being "scuppered" by Angel's appearance, it says quite a bit that she send Angel away after only a few "no tongue" kisses, and spent the next two nights in Spike's bed, whether any sex was involved or not.

I in no way am certain as to which man Buffy will eventually choose, but I am certain of one thing. The adolescent relationship that Buffy had with Angel in Sunnydale and soon thereafter is over. Anything that develops between adult Buffy and Angel will have to be new and based on more than a little girl's crush and a vampire who has been celibate for the better part of a century and has become fixated a girl barely into her teens. And it might actually happen. It hasn't done so yet, however, and the cookies are still up for grabs.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

See, this is what I find so hard to believe. Can you honestly say there was no romance in 'Touched', when she was stroking his arm as he slept? Or the look of love on her face in "Showtime" when she comes to cuts him free of her restraints? How can you honestly say there was no romance there?

Just out of curiosity; what is your definition of romance? Of love? I think it's different then mine, which lies the problem.

Buffy and Spike loved each other. Their characters were written with romance in mind, and the actors were directed to "play the romance." Joss has SAID that Buffy's romantic interest WAS Spike in the later seasons. Buffy SAID she loved Spike.

*sigh*

Now, I get if you don't prefer Spuffy - but denying what's obviously there...I just don't get it. We Spuffies can't stand Bangel, but we don't deny that she loves him.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to "start" anything here - I just honestly don't understand how you can deny something that is so blatant to me.

I can honestly say I don't see any of that in the scenes you mentioned.

And I don't think you can say 'denying whats obviously there' because it clearly isn't if not all of us can see it.

I'm obviously not a Bangel, but if I may be indulged for a moment, I would like to propose one question for consideration. Can anyone honestly say that Buffy's relationship with Angel (with soul) was any more romantically advanced by the end of Season 1 than her relationship with Spike (with soul) was by the end of Season 7? Most of the real Bangel romance came into its own in Season 2, a year AFTER they met. Judge the Spuffy relationship as it actually began in Season 7, after Spike regained his soul, and the differences between the two diminish considerably. What might have happened between Buffy and Spike in a televised Season 8, we will never know, but I personally believe that the beginnings of their actual romance in Season 7 would have grown into something at least equal, if not superior, to anything that Buffy and Angel ever had in Season 2.

As I said before, This was a starting point, but I don't think Spike and Buffy would have been in the same place Buffy and Angel were after their first season "together".

And I honestly believe thats as far as they would have gotten, I don't think it would have gotten any further.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Quite possibly I have an unsual view/definition of romance (loathe it with a passion!), but one main reason for me to ship Spuffy is because I don't see their love as romantic. I do see (unrequited) romance in Spike's feelings toward Buffy S5, and boy do I see lots of it there with the stalking, shrines, and sexbottage. But he grows beyond that in "Intervention", then relapses mid-S6 - which is a season that IMO does carry strong romantic undertones in the Spuffy relationship, on both sides. I think both Spike and Buffy felt romantically for each other in S6, and that's a big part of what makes it disturbing to watch, considerably more than the graphic sexuality. Romance is bad enough without sex (*cough*Bangel*cough*), but if you put sex into the mix with it, Very Bad Things Happen.

I wouldn't be shipping Spuffy if I saw romance between them in S7. They grew beyond all the romance cr*p; what's left is love, pure and simple, and it's beautiful to watch. If I wanted romance (perish the though!), I'd be shipping Bangel. 😛

 

[Kana]

Quite possibly I have an unsual view/definition of romance (loathe it with a passion!), but one main reason for me to ship Spuffy is because I don't see their love as romantic.

I suppose it depends on how we view romance. I must admit, I am (deep down) very romantic, however, I appreciate the most profound of platonic pairings. Anything from familial bonds (be it biological or otherwise) or now popularly coined 'Bromances'.

From a narrative perspective, what I find fascinating about Spuffy is the lack of definition. So I would go as far as to say they ended up as more than friends but not quite lovers. To me the connection between the was special, even finding it's own niche among her more defined platonic relationships at the time. This is most notable in First Date. Wood is able to see the difference between the familiarity of Buffy and platonic friend Xander and that of her shared connection with Spike.

I do see (unrequited) romance in Spike's feelings toward Buffy S5, and boy do I see lots of it there with the stalking, shrines, and sexbottage. But he grows beyond that in "Intervention", then relapses mid-S6 - which is a season that IMO does carry strong romantic undertones in the Spuffy relationship, on both sides. I think both Spike and Buffy felt romantically for each other in S6, and that's a big part of what makes it disturbing to watch, considerably more than the graphic sexuality. Romance is bad enough without sex (*cough*Bangel*cough*), but if you put sex into the mix with it, Very Bad Things Happen.

I loved Bangel at the beginning but 'd further define it as a 'romantic romance'. The point I'm getting at is, do you detest anything distinguished from platonic love? Or do you simply dislike an over romanticized relationship, which in theory could even apply to a platonic relationship? The latter I can understand and even in many instances relate to as, while I'm an idealist, I'm also someone who steer clear of overly sentimental cliches which are vapid in their very nature.

Without getting totally off topic, to defend the Bangel phenomenon, it can be characterised as an idealistic romantic relationship without falling prey to vapidity of romantic delusion.

Getting back on track, we can still define their love as growing beyond friendship but without reaching the holding hands stage (yes I'm aware of the 'Chosen' irony) but I suppose I can understand Bangels' reservations...It's not about feeling threatened but about how define love. This question was put clearly to Bangels to see if there is a link between their ship and how they view Spuffy. To defend Bangels again, my mother who openly detests and vampire ship (she's happy to say she prejudice) states that she saw the love between Buffy and Angel but did not think that Buffy reciprocated Spike's feelings, so while I saw differently, I'd have to admit that Buffy's romantic feelings for Spike are clearly more debatable than they are or were for Angel.

I wouldn't be shipping Spuffy if I saw romance between them in S7. They grew beyond all the romance cr*p; what's left is love, pure and simple, and it's beautiful to watch. If I wanted romance (perish the though!), I'd be shipping Bangel.

As I've said, I somewhat of a romantic in terms of sentiment, but I'm also a sceptic and go back and forth between nihilism or non-cognitivism. While believe in love in a loose term, I doubt it exists about the material and certainly and I'm not sure if I believe in a 'pure love'. This isn't to say the love 'tainted' in a negative way but I don't think we can seperate love from circumstance, again not always a bad thing. Love can bend even if it does not falter.

Anyway, still are there any Bangels out there who believe Buffy loved Spike as more than just a friend????

 

[InsaneMystic]

The point I'm getting at is, do you detest anything distinguished from platonic love? Or do you simply dislike an over romanticized relationship, which in theory could even apply to a platonic relationship? The latter I can understand and even in many instances relate to as, while I'm an idealist, I'm also someone who steer clear of overly sentimental cliches which are vapid in their very nature.

The latter. 🙂 It doesn't need to be non-platonic for me (I suppose we're using "platonic" in the colloquial sense as "free from an erotic/sexual component"?), but it does have to be free from vapid sentimentality and dependancy (= the romantic delusion).

True love is IMO indistinguishable from true friendship (and both are free from romance). Whether or not an erotic/sexual level comes into play is completely secondary. (Personally, I do see an erotic, but non-sexual, component in S7 Spuffy, but it's not overly important to the "is it love?" question if it's there or not.)

If a relationship is not free from romance, though, sexuality makes things infinitely worse, so a platonic romance, while still detestable, is the lesser of two evils. 🙂

Without getting totally off topic, to defend the Bangel phenomenon, it can be characterised as an idealistic romantic relationship without falling prey to vapidity of romantic delusion.

I'd disagree, but don't want to bring the thread off topic by delving into that. 😉

Getting back on track, we can still define their love as growing beyond friendship but without reaching the holding hands stage (yes I'm aware of the 'Chosen' irony) but I suppose I can understand Bangels' reservations...It's not about feeling threatened but about how define love. This question was put clearly to Bangels to see if there is a link between their ship and how they view Spuffy.

Indeed. I do assume that most, if not all, Bangels do consider "reciprocative romance" to be an integral part of "true love", and thus, from their POV, don't see love in Spuffy - just as I consider freedom from romance an integral part of "true love", so I don't see love in Bangel.

 

[Eleftheria]

My opinion on the matter(If Buffy loves Spike romantically) doesn't have to do with romance...it has to do with the kind of love I see there.

Just because bangel has many romantic moments doesn't mean that those moments define the power of their love. I have some scenes in my mind which prove that bangel is much greater than a romantic relationship. Briley was also romantic and sweet, but was it about true and honest love? it lacked communication and true understanding, which are btw the basic elements of bangel.

 

[Vengeance]

I ship Bangel more than Spuffy, but I believe Buffy romantically loved Spike and she meant what she said in Chosen. I don't buy she was just saying it to reward Spike. She kept believing in Spike from the moment she knew he was re-ensouled, even when she perhaps shouldn't have. I think that stems from her starting to love him for what he did for her (getting his soul back) and finally she admits it to him at the end of the season.

My 2c.