Bangels: Did Buffy love Spike romantically?

[Wishing Oceans]

My opinion on the matter(If Buffy loves Spike romantically) doesn't have to do with romance...it has to do with the kind of love I see there.

Just because bangel has many romantic moments doesn't mean that those moments define the power of their love. I have some scenes in my mind which prove that bangel is much greater than a romantic relationship. Briley was also romantic and sweet, but was it about true and honest love? it lacked communication and true understanding, which are btw the basic elements of bangel.

Would you care to share those scenes with us? 🙂 I've always thought that Briley wasn't love at all, it was a rebound relationship like Killow.

Huh, I really disagree with that last sentence! Bangel, having true understanding and communication? They always lacked that. Pangs, for example, Angel with his failure to communicate decided to sneak into Sunnydale behind Buffy's back. Angel never told her that he was a vampire; She had to find out the hard way. Halloween: Buffy had no idea about what Angel looked for in a girl (or just in general), and tried to change herself by sneaking around and reading books on him rather than just asking him, which was an utter fail. Earshot: Since Buffy never had any idea what Angel was thinking, she tried to get into his mind (Without asking, which, really, was very rude of her) instead of just asking him. Enemies, spent time moping around and complaining and worrying about the whole Faith/Angel deal instead of just asking him... The Prom: Angel dumping her right before Prom for "The Greater Good" and refusing to actually tell her why. It was SO Twilight (Or rather New Moon). 😀

What I see there is a great lack in communication and understanding. They were always skulking around and stalking each other rather than just going up and asking the other.

True love is IMO indistinguishable from true friendship (and both are free from romance). Whether or not an erotic/sexual level comes into play is completely secondary. (Personally, I do see an erotic, but non-sexual, component in S7 Spuffy, but it's not overly important to the "is it love?" question if it's there or not.)

If a relationship is not free from romance, though, sexuality makes things infinitely worse, so a platonic romance, while still detestable, is the lesser of two evils.

I agree, although I think that SOME romance should be involved, you know, once in a while. 🙂 Like, I detest (most) romances that are JUST romance/mostly romance, but I think that a little bit of romance is nice. 🙂

Do you think that it's odd that I actually LOVE the Jack/Rose relationship from Titanic? I thought that it was absolutely beautiful, although it's pretty romantic.

 

[Eleftheria]

Angel couldn't tell her she was a vampire right away for obvious reasons, I think. We have discussed this already if I am not mistaken. Yes there was true understanding and communication. In Amends end scene, they just look at each other and communicate. Whenever Buffy has a problem she runs to Angel. In "Forever" they sit under a tree talking like a day hasn't passed from the time they broke up. She is confiding in him there too. In Pangs he couldn't tell her he was there because they agreed to stay away from each other...yeah it was stupid of him not to appear, but Buffy can still feel him even when she can't see him. She said that in IWRY. And that means their souls are communicating. In Enemies, I totally understand her. I know it was more than obvious to us fans that the guy loved her more than anything, but every girl has doubts...especially when the other girl(Faith) has the sexy bad girl attitude. Perhaps I would be worried too if I were Buffy. She couldn't ask right away maybe because she was afraid. I don't know, relationship stuff!:biggrin3:
In the Prom he wanted a break up but he had a pretty good explanation for it. I think it is quite obvious. He says so much about what he can't offer her. He tells her that he wants sth better for her. He HAS the power to do that because he loves her. If he was so selfish, he would say I'd stay with you forever, noone will set us apart and stuff. But he knows the truth and he had the courage to admit it. One of the scenes which show us bangel is not just about romance it is about love.

Some scenes with no romance but pure power of their love, are IMO, the Amends hill scene. They are not hugging there or kissing.They are fighting and yelling at each other. And they are crying. Their love is declared.

In Reptile Boy, I think they both realise how powerful their feelings for each other are, that's why:"When you kiss me I wanna die".

In The Yoko Factor, he comes back to apologise, they are fighting verbally(well it's mostly Buffy yelling there!) and then they laugh and Buffy smiles ironically, cause Angel doesn't like Riley. Plus the eye signal. She just looks at him and he gets up and follows her. They have a code of their own.

 

[Flannen]

Huh, I really disagree with that last sentence! Bangel, having true understanding and communication? They always lacked that. Pangs, for example, Angel with his failure to communicate decided to sneak into Sunnydale behind Buffy's back. Angel never told her that he was a vampire; She had to find out the hard way. Halloween: Buffy had no idea about what Angel looked for in a girl (or just in general), and tried to change herself by sneaking around and reading books on him rather than just asking him, which was an utter fail. Earshot: Since Buffy never had any idea what Angel was thinking, she tried to get into his mind (Without asking, which, really, was very rude of her) instead of just asking him. Enemies, spent time moping around and complaining and worrying about the whole Faith/Angel deal instead of just asking him..

While all these things did happen and do highlight that there were breakdowns in communications, they're pretty staple parts of new relationships. Buffy worrying she wouldn't be what he wanted but not in a position to walk up to him and go 'hey, what sorta girl do you like?' seems like a pretty common insecurity to face.And similarly her attempt to read Angel's thoughts is more about her flaws than the relationships. Angel tells her to just ask him what he's thinking but it continues to be something she worries about, which is about HER not THEM.

It's all good and well to say that she should have just gone to him about all these things but its really not as easy as it sounds.

But all that aside, the 'bumps' in their relationship then have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the future of their relationship. His return in season 5 demonstrates there is complete understanding as opposed to a distinct lack of it. He didn't even need see her to know that she would need him to lean on. He knew what she was feeling before she even had to say it and he dealt with the whole thing in such a way as to demonstrate the level of understanding between them.

Relationships are a learning curve. The insecurities I had when I was 15/16 and the way I handled things then taught me how to deal with them in the future. And that's how I see it with Buffy and Angel too. The things that came before in the earlier stages of their relationship do not dictate the way it always be.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Kana, I think your experiment is spot-on; it is difficult (if not impossible) to find a Bangel that believes Buffy loved Spike romantically. Why this is, I'm still not sure, but it is an interesting phenomenon.
Now, 'ship neutral fans will admit it. I know a few who like Bangel and Spuffy equally.

Perhaps Bangels and Spuffies are like Slayers; they're not supposed to exist together and so therefore, can never truly get along. 😉

What I see there is a great lack in communication and understanding. They were always skulking around and stalking each other rather than just going up and asking the other.

Well, this is a pretty general statement, but it rings true.

If Angel 'understood' Buffy - a girl who likes to make her own decisions - he wouldn't have violated her mind in IWRY, to name one of many examples.

On the other hand IMO Spuffy was characterized by utter and complete honesty and understanding. In fact, the two understood each other so well, that sometimes words were not even needed.

And great points, Flannen. I completely agree that how a relationship starts does not dictate how it ends.

Anyhow - any more Bangels want to step up to the plate and admit Buffy loved Spike?

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Perhaps Bangels and Spuffies are like Slayers; they're not supposed to exist together and so therefore, can never truly get along. 😉

But, as Min and I know, cannot help being drawn to each other, and have a bond like no other. 😀

Which, you know, is kinda true. It often seems like the Bangel and Spuffy 'shippers of BB stand out more than anybody else since we're always having huge disagreements over EVERYTHING. Like Faith and Buffy. One essentially dark, one essentially light (At a time). They're very different, but essentially two different sides of the same coin.

Same with Spuffy and Bangel. Bangels may be heads whereas Spuffys are tails, but we're both just sides of the same coin. And, as some of you may know, Bangel and Spuffy are quite similar. Like, when I'm thinking of a song that describes Bangel/Spuffy, I'll suddenly realize that it describes the other as well. 😀

Plus, come on Spuffies, don't you just love the Bangels? Actually, it's weird, I have a very strange love for almost every Bangel, yet I dislike many Spuffies. I wonder what that says about me. :biggrin3:

Anyway. So, it seems that the pure Bangels don't see the romantic love between Spike and Buffy. But the half-breeds do. 😉 Maybe it's because, as InsaneMystic said, there really isn't much ROMANTIC love in Spuffy s7. Since it's not romantic like 'ships such as Bangel/Woz, the bangels can't see it. It's just not obvious enough for them. Us Spuffies who look for quality love rather than just romance CAN see it. 🙂

 

[GrrArghx]

Maybe we're just hitting the lines of what makes us Bangels and you guys Spuffy, lol.

If we saw both relationships in the same way as everyone else does, we wouldn't be arguing in the first place! 😛

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Maybe we're just hitting the lines of what makes us Bangels and you guys Spuffy, lol.

If we saw both relationships in the same way as everyone else does, we wouldn't be arguing in the first place! 😛

Why DO we argue? I've always wondered. After all, no 'ship is truly better than the other, and 'ship are about the journey, not the ending. We're never going to convince anybody to switch over because everybody enjoys watching different things.

Maybe it's to try and make others see the way that we do, to spread the love? To make the other see the "Truth"?

Although, as The First said, "Truth? There is no truth. Only what you believe." 🙂

Hm. I dunno, but whatever we're doing, it really doesn't work. 😀

 

[GrrArghx]

I don't know either, lol. I guess it's for defending something you love 🙂

Personally, I find it interesting how each one of us view the show differently, even though we all watched the exact same thing. That's what brings me into these threads, moreso than the 'arguing' or anything else.