Bangels only: Do you see chemistry in Spuffy?

[RomanticSoul]

Next to that 'Crush' is like self-parody, which I think is due to Spike now being comic relief rather than a credible threat. Even if you accept that Spike has now fully switched his obsession to Buffy, he still shouldn't so easily be able to toss Dru aside. There should be that undeniable pull of the sire/sired relationship.

But the show by that point had pretty much discarded the old formula, in almost every way. Spike/Dru was also retconned (like B/A was in 'Something Blue'...Buffy talking to Willow) this Season. When they basically re-invented even Spuffy via Spike up to that point, it tied into Dru. Here they retconned Lover's Walk. Back in S3 Dru dumped Spike because she thought he'd gone too soft by striking a bargain with the slayer. In S5 it was retconned into 'Dru can see Spike has feelings for Buffy'. Waaaaaaa?????? It feels like post-S3, when they had to re-invent the show because they were out of high school, they had to also change the show bible and the characters. Add in monk shenanigans and you have an almost new shows. It's like the later Seasons are the total opposite of the earlier ones. Whether it's how demons are portrayed, mythology, the characters and their opinions/morals/past. And it's retcons overload. So many things from the earlier Seasons were retconned post S4 it's crazy. So of course Spike/Dru doesn't work anymore in this new setting.

Angel loved Buffy more than anything yet when Darla turns up in AtS the intensity of their connection is palpable - the unresolved desire, the pull of darkness. And that was Angel with a soul. It should be even more difficult for a soulless Spike to resist. The first time I watched it I was so excited for that brief return of Sprusilla in the middle of the episode, but then it just fizzled out.

Yeah well, AtS did a lot of things much better than BtVS when the two shows tackled the same topics. I always see Weslah as 'Spuffy done right' which is why I'm behind that but not Spuffy.
 

I prefer the Lovers' Walk one but I think they're both canon as long as you read the FFL flashback as a self-fulfilling prophecy due to Drusilla's foresight, rather than as a retcon that he wanted Buffy since S2

Dru's foresight was always very limited in terms of time. She either saw things that happened at that moment but somewhere else. Or something that happened the next day or so. Never have we seen Dru be able to tell things years in advance. Unless they retconned her powers too. I always go with the original, not the retcon. Like this retcon was purely designed for Spuffy, not any other reason. So screw the writers. Just like Spike was re-invented in FFL as the knight who goes out and finds 1 on 1 fights with the biggest ass kickers, aka slayers. Totally contradicts the Spike of Season 2-4 who exploited any and all advantages he could. It was just done to promote Spike, so I spit on that retcon.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I prefer the Lovers' Walk one but I think they're both canon as long as you read the FFL flashback as a self-fulfilling prophecy due to Drusilla's foresight, rather than as a retcon that he wanted Buffy since S2

I agree that the FFL flashback was a self-fulfilling prophecy (and could easily just describe the events of Something Blue if Dru only saw Spuffy kissing and not the context). However, if the FFL flashback is canon then Spike's actions at the end of Lovers Walk make no sense. Spike comes back drunk and upset because Dru dumped him but gets his mojo back when he thinks he can get her to love him again by showing her that he is still the man she fell in love with. Spike's not an idiot, so why would he think he can get her to love him again if the reason she dumped him in the first place was because she saw him in love with Buffy? Also Drusilla apparently told him that they "could still be friends" which also upset him and the point of the episode is that Buffy and Angel can't be "just friends". She never said that to him in the flashback.

Also Lovers Walk came first but the FFL flashback takes place in the timeline before Lovers Walk.
 

I always go with the original, not the retcon.

I think I'm inclined to agree with you. I love the FFL flashbacks with Spike defeating the two Slayers but the Sprusilla one never sat quite right with me. Spike was gloriously in character in Lovers Walk but once Spuffy began taking hold he was just Buffy's lap dog, his whole storyline revolved around Buffy which was a major disservice to such a great character.

Do you think the LMPTM flashback with Nikki was a retcon of the FFL Black Slayer flashback eg the FFL flashback seemed like Spike and Nikki came into contact by accident whereas LMPTM made it deliberate? Was that Slayer even meant to be Nikki before they decided to make it so?

 

[RomanticSoul]

However, if the FFL flashback is canon then Spike's actions at the end of Lovers Walk make no sense. Spike comes back drunk and upset because Dru dumped him but gets his mojo back when he thinks he can get her to love him again by showing her that he is still the man she fell in love with. Spike's not an idiot, so why would he think he can get her to love him again if the reason she dumped him in the first place was because she saw him in love with Buffy? Also Drusilla apparently told him that they "could still be friends" which also upset him and the point of the episode is that Buffy and Angel can't be "just friends". She never said that to him in the flashback.

Haha, wow. I didn't even see it from that perspective. Lol damn. The S5 version makes even less sense then. Maybe I should rewatch S5 again, been a long while.

Do you think the LMPTM flashback with Nikki was a retcon of the FFL Black Slayer flashback eg the FFL flashback seemed like Spike and Nikki came into contact by accident whereas LMPTM made it deliberate? Was that Slayer even meant to be Nikki before they decided to make it so?

I honestly couldn't tell you. Been even longer since I have seen S6+7. I can't drink that much anymore, getting old here. And there is no way I would watch those Seasons sober.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I honestly couldn't tell you. Been even longer since I have seen S6+7. I can't drink that much anymore, getting old here. And there is no way I would watch those Seasons sober.

You literally only have to watch the first scene of LMPTM, it's before the opening credits I believe. Though Nikki's line delivery makes even Spike give her a disappointed look lol.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

however, if the FFL flashback is canon then Spike's actions at the end of Lovers Walk make no sense. Spike comes back drunk and upset because Dru dumped him but gets his mojo back when he thinks he can get her to love him again by showing her that he is still the man she fell in love with. Spike's not an idiot, so why would he think he can get her to love him again if the reason she dumped him in the first place was because she saw him in love with Buffy?

So true. Add to this that when Spike is walking around wasted he never says anything about Dru saying him being in love with Buffy. It’s very obvious to me it was retconned. It doesn’t even bother me all that much until Crush. If Dru knows Spike us or would fall in love with Buffy why try and get him back?

 

[RomanticSoul]

You literally only have to watch the first scene of LMPTM, it's before the opening credits I believe. Though Nikki's line delivery makes even Spike give her a disappointed look lol.

That's difficult. I don't own S5-7 lol. So I can't just look it up.

 

[EarthLogic]

It's like the later Seasons are the total opposite of the earlier ones. Whether it's how demons are portrayed, mythology, the characters and their opinions/morals/past. And it's retcons overload. So many things from the earlier Seasons were retconned post S4 it's crazy.

However, if the FFL flashback is canon then Spike's actions at the end of Lovers Walk make no sense. Spike comes back drunk and upset because Dru dumped him but gets his mojo back when he thinks he can get her to love him again by showing her that he is still the man she fell in love with. Spike's not an idiot, so why would he think he can get her to love him again if the reason she dumped him in the first place was because she saw him in love with Buffy? Also Drusilla apparently told him that they "could still be friends" which also upset him and the point of the episode is that Buffy and Angel can't be "just friends". She never said that to him in the flashback.

Good point. Forgot about the 'just be friends' thing. It would make a little more sense if the flashback had been to the second time she dumped him - when she left him for the Fungus demon. That way Spike would have already encountered Buffy again in s3 and Dru could have foreseen their cuddling in Something Blue.

Do you think the LMPTM flashback with Nikki was a retcon of the FFL Black Slayer flashback eg the FFL flashback seemed like Spike and Nikki came into contact by accident whereas LMPTM made it deliberate? Was that Slayer even meant to be Nikki before they decided to make it so?

I'm not sure I see anything in LMPTM flashback that directly contradicts FFL. IN LMPTM Spike says he's been tracking Nikki for a while and in FFL there's not really any dialogue to indicate how long they'd known each other. It starts and ends in the subway train. It may have seemed like an accident before but IMO the S7 flashback works because it just adds backstory without changing anything.

I loved the FFL slayer flashbacks and watching the episode again recently I realised that I actually really wanted the slayers to win! Before I was too focused on Spike's admittedly cool swagger and how hot he looked in the 70s but those slayers had such kick-ass moves that now I just want to see them wipe the floor with him. Anyone else feel this way?

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I loved the FFL slayer flashbacks and watching the episode again recently I realised that I actually really wanted the slayers to win! Before I was too focused on Spike's admittedly cool swagger and how hot he looked in the 70s but those slayers had such kick-ass moves that now I just want to see them wipe the floor with him. Anyone else feel this way?

I really liked Nikki, she was a bad ass and I remember the first time I watched it thinking that Spike looked hott but being very bummed to know she killed him because that I wanted her to kill him. But then again I was never going to be all torn up if Spike died lol.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Good point. Forgot about the 'just be friends' thing. It would make a little more sense if the flashback had been to the second time she dumped him - when she left him for the Fungus demon. That way Spike would have already encountered Buffy again in s3 and Dru could have foreseen their cuddling in Something Blue.

What do you think @Slayerofslayers Should the FFL Sprusilla flashback with the chaos demon be considered canon or should what Spike says in regards to the Sprusilla break up in Lovers Walk be considered canon?

It may have seemed like an accident before but IMO the S7 flashback works because it just adds backstory without changing anything.

Who played Nikki better, the stunt person or the actress?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

What do you consider Spuffy?

 

[Slayerofslayers]

What do you think @Slayerofslayers Should the FFL Sprusilla flashback with the chaos demon be considered canon or should what Spike says in regards to the Sprusilla break up in Lovers Walk be considered canon?



Who played Nikki better, the stunt person or the actress?

I think that the Lovers Walk explanation makes much more sense. Spike may have found Buffy attractive but it's clear that he didn't care about Buffy when he left her to be killed by Angel at the end of "Becoming, Part Two" in favor of taking Dru with him and he is all broken up about him and Dru breaking up in season three and four. In my opinion, a lot of the FFL conversations between him and Buffy and the chaos demon flashback is just trying to get the audience to understand why Spike likes Buffy now and why they are a viable option as a couple now and why Buffy is much more present in his focus.

I personally always felt that the Spuffy stuff was too forced as to give another reason as to keep Spike on the show and to have another character fall in love with the female lead like a lot of shows do. I agree with the posts before me that they work much better as frenemies who might have to work together at times. I will admit that there are some moments between him and Buffy that are kind of sweet in the last half of season five and the first part of season six but it's the moments themselves not the characters together that I like. Because when you think about all the creepy stalker and obsession stuff Spike does to Buffy in the first half of season five and the second half of season six it makes it so you can't like them being together. So yeah, I didn't feel that there was much chemistry to Spike and Buffy and I do not like them together. I prefer when Spike was at his best with Drusilla and being a villain, because he was actually a sweet romantic that treated her well and him and Buffy could be enemies with funny scenes between them and interesting conflicts.

 

[NileQT87]

Who played Nikki better, the stunt person or the actress?

The stunt double was the better actress! Even emotionally, she expresses more. Also, the stunt double had a much more authentic, natural '70s look than the model-like actress, who screamed modern for some reason. One had real hair and the other had a bad wig. When I think of Nikki, the stunt double is the one I think of as the main actress. I actually think she was prettier.

They let the stunt woman playing Xin Rong speak (Chinese, but still), so I'd have preferred if they had just brought the original Nikki back. I seriously doubt there was much acting there she wouldn't have done better. The original Nikki had a tougher, more defiant edge in her facial expressions, too, whereas the recast just seemed like a glamor model casting version of the character with less personality.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

The stunt double was the better actress! Even emotionally, she expresses more. Also, the stunt double had a much more authentic, natural '70s look than the model-like actress, who screamed modern for some reason. One had real hair and the other had a bad wig. When I think of Nikki, the stunt double is the one I think of as the main actress. I actually think she was prettier.

They let the stunt woman playing Xin Rong speak (Chinese, but still), so I'd have preferred if they had just brought the original Nikki back. I seriously doubt there was much acting there she wouldn't have done better. The original Nikki had a tougher, more defiant edge in her facial expressions, too, whereas the recast just seemed like a glamor model casting version of the character with less personality.

That's true.

The original Nikki actually looks like she could put up a good fight against Spike.

 

[EarthLogic]

The stunt woman by far. She was more expressive, grittier and came across as more authentic than the prettified actress.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

@brinkster130 I see. Well, I posit that Spuffy started in S2, so yes, I see plenty of chemistry. Not so much in the seasons you mention.

 

[brinkster130]

@brinkster130 I see. Well, I posit that Spuffy started in S2, so yes, I see plenty of chemistry. Not so much in the seasons you mention.

Interesting. I never bought the whole idea of Spike falling for Buffy as soon as he saw/met her in season 2; but I haven’t watched it in a while.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Interesting. I never bought the whole idea of Spike falling for Buffy as soon as he saw/met her in season 2; but I haven’t watched it in a while.

I haven't watched it in awhile either, but come on, his behavior is totally crush/infatuation. Following her around, videotaping her. Monologuing to impress her instead of killing her. He was a smitten kitten.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

The stunt woman by far. She was more expressive, grittier and came across as more authentic than the prettified actress.

Found this on the Buffy wiki:

She was portrayed by both April Weeden-Washington and K.D. Aubert.

Weeden-Washington originally portrayed Nikki. However, when the character was brought back, the stuntwoman was deemed "too mature" by the show's casting directors. They wanted a younger actress, who could seem more like a vulnerable teenage mother, for the role, so Aubert portrayed Nikki Wood in the seventh season.

Talk about ageism.

I think it would've been better to have the more "mature" slayer to show that whilst Slayers don't reach old age, they don't all die in their teens.

@brinkster130 I always saw it as a predator stalking his prey as well. Spike had no romantic interest in Buffy in Season 2, he was too wrapped up with Dru.

 

[TotallySpiked]

I just watched School Hard and I definately see him being infatuated with her from the start. If nothing else, he definately thought she was hot.

 

[EarthLogic]

I haven't watched it in awhile either, but come on, his behavior is totally crush/infatuation. Following her around, videotaping her. Monologuing to impress her instead of killing her. He was a smitten kitten.

Given that for vampires, especially Spike, sex and violence are one and the same, his behaviour IMO doesn't indicate much more than the fact that he gets off on the thought of the violence.

He thought Nikki was hot too but he had no qualms about killing her. In fact it seems to have added to the thrill.