Bangels only: Do you see chemistry in Spuffy?

When something is written before the fact, and the fact wasn't even thought of yet, then you can't say that the something was written with the fact in mind.
When you've known someone for awhile and then you gradually fall in love, it's common for people to look back and their history to look for kernels of that love. That's what season 2 was, the kernels of Spuffy. The fact Spike was infatuated with her, met and liked her mother, helped her, etc. Just because it wasn't the smarmy, sickening crap that was presented in S5-7 doesn't mean it wasn't Spuffy.
 
Hmm, ignoring the current conversation and going back to the original question, I don't think "chemistry" filled is how I'd describe Spuffy.

Whereas Bangel had a natural, pleasant chemistry, Spuffy had an angry, violent connection that was too harsh and forced to be called "chemistry". Chemistry, the way I see it, is something that two people have regardless of their shared history. You just feel it. Bangel(us) had that regardless of the nature of their connection (mainly romantic). Spuffy, on the other hand, was forceful. When they entered a sexual relationship, they shared angry looks, aggressive touches, bruising kisses, etc. I think fans read all of it as "chemistry", when, to me, it's just abuse. Spuffy were undeniably melodramatic and I think that angst and the sex translates to "chemistry" to a lot of fans. However, it's truly artificial and forced. Take the script away and the actors don't have any chemistry, unlike Sarah and David who have it in spades in interviews and behind the scenes.
 
Who played Nikki better, the stunt person or the actress?
April Weeden-Washington (season 5) > K.D. Aubert (season 7). IMO
 
Spike was also originally going to be killed off in Season 2 when the church organ fell on his head. It's only because the character was so popular that he was allowed to survive and was injured instead.



But that's retroactive. When Season 2 first aired, Spuffy wasn't a thing because Spike was meant to be a disposable villain. Everything Spuffy related happened AFTER Spike became a regular so at the time of writing Season 2, Spuffy wasn't part of it. Also in Lovers Walk, when Spike was still only a guest star, Spike says Dru dumped him because she thought he'd gone soft and wasn't "demon enough" for her any more. He even mentions that she said they "could still be friends" and the whole point of the episode was that Buffy and Angel couldn't be "just friends". Spike's actions of deciding to win Dru back don't make sense if Dru dumped him for any other reason than what he gave. Again, Lovers Walk was written BEFORE Spike became a regular. At the very least during Seasons 2& 3, Spuffy was never on the radar.
Then again, we're talking about the same creator/director/writer who claims that any Fuffy stuff was unintentional. Now, I'm no that's someone who thinks that the Buffy/Faith relationship is as overt as others do, but c'mon! He doesn't even admit to any intentional subtext. Really, not a hint Joss? Hmm...

So anyway, sometimes maybe perhaps...characters do things that the creator doesn't even intend them to do. Actors aren't automatons after all. A look, a gesture, the way they say a line, can convey a lot to an audience. Maybe more than the writer intends? I don't know, just rambling thoughts.

I also think that Spike may not even realize at first that there is any kind of attraction. It's just *something*. And it may be something he has with ALL Slayers. He is attracted to the power. (Not to mention that they all happen to be strong, young, attractive, females who can match him in a fight).
 
Oops I can't edit! That's supposed to say "I'm not someone who thinks that the Buffy/Faith relationship..."
 
As to the original question, as a Bangel I obviously feel that their chemistry is unmatched by Spuffy. All I have to do is look at the way Buffy touches Angel's face. She never touches Spike's face. Spike may love her but I'm sorry to say, she just doesn't feel the same. I also adore the way some of you describe their kisses. Sigh.

(& I'm behind on the comics so I can't speak to the current season).
 
There is no proof that Angelus was into BDSM with Darla, where there's numerous examples of pain and punishment being a turn-on with Spike.
Erm...what does this have to do with what we were discussing? You talked about Spike watching Buffy, stalking her, getting off on the violence. Our point is that that's what vampires do. Angelus did all that to Buffy and worse. Which means by your logic, Angelus was even more infatuated/into Buffy than Spike. Which also means it should be them down the line, not Spuffy.

Just following your logic...
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
The pain and punishment being a turn-on. There is no evidence that Angel was sexually turned on by it, whereas Spike was. That is what lead to the "deeper" feelings he had for Buffy.
No. But I'm not a bangel either which is why I said I shouldnt even be posting. But most of the posts say SPUFFY ONLY or BANGEL ONLY and there weren't many threads for me to visit. So I thought I'd break the rules and post here.

Oh I don't mind if you aren't a Spuffy, I thought you were. Nothing wrong with shipping Spuffy, just if you do, well then you are obviously going to see chemistry.
That would be like asking me if I see chemistry in Bangel, my answer would of course be DUH lol.

I'm glad to have your opinion! Our section has just been heavily invaded by Spuffy shippers lately. Sorry if I came off rude or anything.
 
That's like saying if Joyce complained of a headache in Season 1 then the signs were "there" that she was going to get a brain tumour and die. When something is written before the fact, and the fact wasn't even thought of yet, then you can't say that the something was written with the fact in mind.
What I meant was that if you were to just look at the show itself as a complete work of art/literature, while ignoring authorial intent (death of the author and all that) then one could easily read back and forth and make connections and interpretations that were never intended by the writers. It would be like novels that were originally released in serialised form - the works of Charles Dickens for example. Originally he was writing them in instalments and would take into account his audience's reactions and modify plot and character development. When we pick up a copy of his novels today however, we read them as one complete piece of work and can read into them what we see for ourselves.

Like I said, serialised TV, and Buffy especially, is much more complicated because there is really no one author and stuff changes constantly. Despite Joss being Plot Overlord, characters were written differently by each writer, and because of the age of the internet the choices the writers made in response to fan reactions are far more obvious. There's also the element of actor performance, especially where JM brought more to Spike than anyone ever asked for. It's actually why I find it difficult to disconnect author from text with Buffy (and AtS) because the logic and continuity fails are sometimes so glaring so you can't help but feel the sense of contrivance.

Having said all that, I think the key to the 'Spuffy in S2' issue is really the inconsistency between Lover's Walk and FFL that you rightly point out. That is a retcon plain and simple because the two just don't match.

To go back to answering the original question, I think Spuffy did have chemistry, just of a different kind. Because Bangel was about intense first love their sexual chemistry was tender and virginal, especially as it was largely about Buffy's blossoming teenage sexuality (although I believe they could have explored this a lot more in S3). Aside from that Angel's silence and stability worked well against her rambling and emotional highs and lows and provided her with the comfort and sense of balance she craves. Their physicality in one another's presence is also easy and more relaxed.

SMG and JM do play off against each other really well and I think Spike and Buffy are at their most enjoyable as frenemies who are constantly fighting and snarking. I do also think they had sexual chemistry in S6, which is why Smashed does work well. I think James carries it more because Spike is so obsessed with Buffy and he plays it very well, whereas with Bangel SMG carries the ship more because she identifies with Buffy better, she's a more experienced actress than David, and because we see the relationship from Buffy's point of view rather than Angel's. I don't see a romantic tension with Spuffy (certainly not a balanced one, you could say it's there from Spike's POV) because up until S7 that's not what it was about. The tension is physical, and palpably tense, because of Buffy's depression and her need to feel something, which I reckon Sarah conveys a lot with her eyes. There is a noticeable connection between them, although the kind understanding they share in the latter half of S5-first half of S6 I personally found OOC because I find nicey-nice selfless Spike confusing.

It's so strange reading the parallel thread on the Spuffy forum, where fans have made almost exactly the same arguments against Bangel chemistry as people here have of Spuffy! [Ship name] is melodramatic/forced/lacks romantic chemistry; [Ship name]-their bodies are drawn to each other; [Ship name] lacks sexual chemistry. Weird. I guess we're back to square one!
 
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It's so strange reading the parallel thread on the Spuffy forum, where fans have made almost exactly the same arguments against Bangel chemistry as people here have of Spuffy! [Ship name] is melodramatic/forced/lacks romantic chemistry; [Ship name]-their bodies are drawn to each other; [Ship name] lacks sexual chemistry. Weird. I guess we're back to square one!

I find this quite humorous as well.
 
Great topic! Well, it's pretty obvious that I am a huge Bangel schipper. I do believe that Buffy and Angel had way more chemistry than Spuffy. I don't think this is surprising though seeing how close both Sarah and David were (and still are!). However, I think James felt very attracted to Sarah and that's why they have, in my opinion, in certain scenes some (one way) chemistry.
 
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
"One way chemistry" lol
When you've known someone for awhile and then you gradually fall in love, it's common for people to look back and their history to look for kernels of that love. That's what season 2 was, the kernels of Spuffy. The fact Spike was infatuated with her, met and liked her mother, helped her, etc. Just because it wasn't the smarmy, sickening crap that was presented in S5-7 doesn't mean it wasn't Spuffy.

Except in Season 2, Spike was never supposed to last beyond that. Spuffy was never the plan so why would groundwork be laid in Season 2 for something which, at that juncture in time, was never going to happen. At best, you could argue that Season 4 started laying groundwork for Spuffy once Spike became a regular before it became an actual thing in Season 5/6, but I don't think Season 2 contained any "kernels of Spuffy".

What I meant was that if you were to just look at the show itself as a complete work of art/literature, while ignoring authorial intent (death of the author and all that) then one could easily read back and forth and make connections and interpretations that were never intended by the writers.

I think this is where the difference of opinion comes from, whether you look at the show through a retroactive lens or a reality lens. Retroactively, you could argue that Spuffy groundwork was laid in Season 2 and that it was all part of some big plan for Spuffy to happen later in the series. However, in reality, Spuffy was never even on the table during Season 2 and there was no groundwork in Season 2 or 3 for Spuffy because at that juncture in time Spike wasn't going to be in the rest of the series and thus Spuffy was never going to happen.

SMG and JM do play off against each other really well and I think Spike and Buffy are at their most enjoyable as frenemies who are constantly fighting and snarking.

I think this is what everyone agrees on in this thread. Spike and Buffy work best as frenemies because they do play off each other well but it was never in a romantic way.
 
It's actually why I find it difficult to disconnect author from text with Buffy (and AtS) because the logic and continuity fails are sometimes so glaring so you can't help but feel the sense of contrivance.
When I see the strings, I balk. That usually is very obvious when a character is acting OOC just to move the plot along. When a show bible is changed just because it doesn't fit anymore with what plot the writers are trying to do. When a character stays on a show despite all reason just because the people behind the scenes love them (or the actor) or they are loved by the fans. When writers insert meta into the story to bash their fans over the head.

It's so strange reading the parallel thread on the Spuffy forum, where fans have made almost exactly the same arguments against Bangel chemistry as people here have of Spuffy! [Ship name] is melodramatic/forced/lacks romantic chemistry; [Ship name]-their bodies are drawn to each other; [Ship name] lacks sexual chemistry. Weird. I guess we're back to square one!
Kinda makes you wonder about how us humans are wired that we see it so differently. Why we see chemistry in one pairing but not another while the next person is the opposite. As someone who ships none of the couples (except non-canon ones but those are just for fun) in BtVS/AtS, I wonder where that places me. Since I don't look at it with shipper bias in mind. There so many variations of chemistry that it's sometimes hard to make a definitive call as to what kind of chemistry 2 people have. SMG and DB for example, I don't necessarily see sexual or romantic chemistry. For me they just have chemistry, one that works in many ways. They have chemistry when it's 'will they won't they', the have chemistry during their romantic and sexual moments and when they are at odds with each other. DB and CC have absolutely no romantic or sexual chemistry whatsoever. However they totally have siblings/friendship chemistry, when they act like big brother/little sister is usually when they they have chemistry coming out. SMG and JM have chemistry pop up when they are enemies or begrudging allies/frenemies. DB and JB have oodles of sexual chemistry. but no romantic one.
 
When I see the strings, I balk. That usually is very obvious when a character is acting OOC just to move the plot along. When a show bible is changed just because it doesn't fit anymore with what plot the writers are trying to do. When a character stays on a show despite all reason just because the people behind the scenes love them (or the actor) or they are loved by the fans. When writers insert meta into the story to bash their fans over the head.


Kinda makes you wonder about how us humans are wired that we see it so differently. Why we see chemistry in one pairing but not another while the next person is the opposite. As someone who ships none of the couples (except non-canon ones but those are just for fun) in BtVS/AtS, I wonder where that places me. Since I don't look at it with shipper bias in mind. There so many variations of chemistry that it's sometimes hard to make a definitive call as to what kind of chemistry 2 people have. SMG and DB for example, I don't necessarily see sexual or romantic chemistry. For me they just have chemistry, one that works in many ways. They have chemistry when it's 'will they won't they', the have chemistry during their romantic and sexual moments and when they are at odds with each other. DB and CC have absolutely no romantic or sexual chemistry whatsoever. However they totally have siblings/friendship chemistry, when they act like big brother/little sister is usually when they they have chemistry coming out. SMG and JM have chemistry pop up when they are enemies or begrudging allies/frenemies. DB and JB have oodles of sexual chemistry. but no romantic one.

Yeah chemistry can be seen in many types of character dynamics. It just tends to get used mostly in reference to romantic/sexual relationships. I think SMG and ASH have a wonderful paternal/filial chemistry. AH and SMG have a sweet platonic one. DB and JM have a great frenemy- with- a-dash-of-homoeroticism chemistry 😛
 
I personally don’t see any romantic/sexual chemistry between buffy and spike. It feels incredibly forced to me. Whenever I watch their scenes, I can’t help but think about how JM looks so concerned with looking good in front of the camera (the acting) and SMG would rather be doing thoses scenes with someone else, she doesn’t seem to want to be there at all. That’s really how those scenes come off to me. I find them awkward in a bad way (as opposed to good/cute awkward).

It’s all very subjective but I do think it’s clear that SMG enjoys and feels her scenes with DB a lot more. And that helps me get into/believe the relationship. DB doesn’t have to be the greatest actor there to sell the relationship, at least not to me.
 
Regarding whether "Fool for Love" was a retcon and the deal with the different actresses playing Nikki: my reading of that episode is that Spike is an extremely unreliable narrator and tells the story in the way that best fits his own image of himself (not because he's lying, but because he's completely bought into his own revisionist history). He thinks Buffy is as obsessed with him as he is with her but refuses to admit it (hilariously untrue), because the alternative is accepting the reality that he's got a rather disturbing unrequited crush and is sexually harassing the object of it. He thinks he's the badass warrior who will risk his own life for a one-on-one death match with a Slayer, but in reality he's an opportunistic git who'll sic assassins and minions on her and flee as soon as it's clear he's going to lose.

Lacking Angel's photographic memory, Spike remembers Nikki differently than her son does (though I agree that the Nikki of Spike's memories was a better actress than the Nikki of S7), and his subjective reality is also why the flashbacks in "Darla" have details that conflict with "Fool for Love". I wouldn't put it past Spike to mentally rewrite Dru's infidelity as being because she was jealous of future Spuffy rather than because she thought he was weak and couldn't hold her attention anymore. Much less damaging to his ego that way, and much better support for his current relationship goals.

If there's a retcon somewhere, it's "Crush," when Drusilla, outside of a flashback, says that she knew Spike loved the Slayer before he did. But then again, maybe that's just Dru latching onto Spike's heavily revised memories of their breakup. (Not that I think the writers really thought about any of this as hard as we are.)

Regarding how early the show seemed to be setting up Spuffy, I don't think it even occurred to the writers until they saw the reaction to ridiculous snogging in "Something Blue," and I don't think they actually intended to do anything about it until Rebecca Kirshner joined the writing team. Her first writing credit was "Out Of My Mind." Even then, I don't think there was a solid plan for it to go beyond one-sided creepiness from Spike until "Intervention."
 
Regarding whether "Fool for Love" was a retcon and the deal with the different actresses playing Nikki: my reading of that episode is that Spike is an extremely unreliable narrator and tells the story in the way that best fits his own image of himself. He thinks Buffy is as obsessed with him as he is with her but refuses to admit it (hilariously untrue), because the alternative is accepting the reality that he's got a rather disturbing unrequited crush and is sexually harassing the object of it. He thinks he's the badass warrior who will risk his own life for a one-on-one death match with a Slayer, but in reality he's an opportunistic git who'll sic assassins and minions on her and flee as soon as it's clear he's going to lose.
See I always thought the flashbacks give us an objective view of the events as they really happened in order to show that what Spike says himself is unreliable. The key to the whole episode, for me, is in the cut after he says 'I've always been bad', which immediately undermines him by showing us what he was really like as a human.
 
Lacking Angel's photographic memory, Spike remembers Nikki differently than her son does (though I agree that the Nikki of Spike's memories was a better actress than the Nikki of S7), and his subjective reality is also why the flashbacks in "Darla" have details that conflict with "Fool for Love". I wouldn't put it past Spike to mentally rewrite Dru's infidelity as being because she was jealous of future Spuffy rather than because she thought he was weak and couldn't hold her attention anymore. Much less damaging to his ego that way, and much better support for his current relationship goals.
I don't think Angel's photographic memory is a guarantee of objectivity. It only means he remembers things in detail, it doesn't mean he can't interpret events and experiences in his own way. Spike rewriting his history with Dru is very unlikely. He's not that deluded. And why would he say 'she said we could still be friends' if she never even said it?
 
See I always thought the flashbacks give us an objective view of the events as they really happened in order to show that what Spike says himself is unreliable. The key to the whole episode, for me, is in the cut after he says 'I've always been bad', which immediately undermines him by showing us what he was really like as a human.

I used to think the flashbacks were objective too, but then I paid closer attention to the ways they're different from the flashbacks in "Darla." In FFL, Spike jumps off that box in the big group shot of the Fanged Four and struts towards the camera, whereas in "Darla," he's carrying Dru bridal style and kissing her. In FFL, he bonks into some random people on the street and stalks off irritably, and they don't look around. In "Darla," we see that those random people were Darla, Angelus, and Dru, who watched him stumbling off into an alley. In FFL, Angelus is covering his jealousy with boredom after Dru brags that Spike has killed a Slayer, but in "Darla," we see that it's because that was actually Angel, not Angelus, and he wasn't bored, he was trying to keep his companions away from some helpless missionaries. And then there's stuff like punk '70s Spike speaking directly to Buffy in the present, which is obviously not what happened in his actual fight with Nikki. There are enough hints to make me doubt the objective truth of the whole thing. Plus, I feel like Spike would be less inclined to rewrite his memories of himself as a human, since he knows how much he changed when Dru turned him, and he's proud of that. The wimpier he remembers himself as a human, the more badass he looks as a Slayer-killing vampire by contrast.
 
I don't think Angel's photographic memory is a guarantee of objectivity. It only means he remembers things in detail, it doesn't mean he can't interpret events and experiences in his own way. Spike rewriting his history with Dru is very unlikely. He's not that deluded. And why would he say 'she said we could still be friends' if she never even said it?

Oh, I do think she said that. I think that what he described in "Lovers Walk" was accurate. It was too fresh to be anything else. Hence Spike being super drunk and miserable. But by S5, he was obsessed with Buffy, so his representations of Dru would be revised to reflect that.

And no, Angel's photographic memory isn't a guarantee of objectivity, but I would still consider him more reliable when it comes to remembering what people look like.
 
In FFL, Spike jumps off that box in the big group shot of the Fanged Four and struts towards the camera, whereas in "Darla," he's carrying Dru bridal style and kissing her.
Ah, good point. I must rewatch those episodes side by side again.

In FFL, he bonks into some random people on the street and stalks off irritably, and they don't look around. In "Darla," we see that those random people were Darla, Angelus, and Dru, who watched him stumbling off into an alley
Technically this could still be objective, like an omniscient narrator following a different character, but taking into account what you say above, probably not then.

R.e. the cut after 'I've always been bad', do you think Spike actually told Buffy about his wimpy human days then?
 
R.e. the cut after 'I've always been bad', do you think Spike actually told Buffy about his wimpy human days then?

I think he told her about at least some of it. The origin story of who he was before he turned is an important part of his vision of who he's become, so I don't think he'd have entirely left it out.

What I have a hard time with is that Buffy would throw Cecily's words in his face on purpose. I don't think she cared enough to be so personal and cruel in her insults, and it's not really the kind of thing a modern girl says to a guy. So did he not tell her what Cecily said and she accidentally echoed the line? That feels wrong, because it's still such an un-Buffy thing to say. Or is he still romanticizing reality, and Buffy really just punched him, threw the cash at him, and ran off after he tried to kiss her, but didn't say the line? I'm more in favor of the latter explanation. It wouldn't be the first time an entire episode, not just flashbacks, was from the perspective of an unreliable narrator. "The Zeppo" does that from Xander's perspective. He sees himself as ridiculous and everyone else as more serious and intense than they are, so that's what we got to see in that episode.
 
R.e. the cut after 'I've always been bad', do you think Spike actually told Buffy about his wimpy human days then?
No way. The whole point of the 'Spike facade' is to cover up the loser underneath. William keeps that up even after re-ensoulment. And the whole point of Spike's false representation of his past to Buffy in FFL is to promote himself as worthy to be with her. Spike would never think 'William' was worthy of Buffy or that she would be wooed by him because loser William never got a woman with his 'William-ness'.
 
No way. The whole point of the 'Spike facade' is to cover up the loser underneath. William keeps that up even after re-ensoulment. And the whole point of Spike's false representation of his past to Buffy in FFL is to promote himself as worthy to be with her. Spike would never think 'William' was worthy of Buffy or that she would be wooed by him because loser William never got a woman with his 'William-ness'.

Well maybe he would talk about it now that he has a soul and maybe wouldn't view William as a loser. Actually he wasn't, he just was more feelings than brawn and now he can be a little bit from both.

But back to topic, yes Spike and Buffy also had chemistry and I think that anybody who denies Bangel or Spuffy had chemistry is just in denial!
 
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