Bangels only: Do you see chemistry in Spuffy?

[EarthLogic]

@Taaroko I think it makes more sense for Buffy to have echoed the line unwittingly. It makes it more of a gut punch for Spike and shatters the confident illusion he's been cultivating of her secretly wanting him.

Buffy can be deliberately cruel at times though. We've seen it before.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Well maybe he would talk about it now that he has a soul and maybe wouldn't view William as a loser. Actually he wasn't, he just was more feelings than brawn and now he can be a little bit from both.

I don't see why he would. He still has the Spike facade firmly in place post- ensouling. The whole point of a facade is to cover up what's underneath. I'm not saying William was a loser but Spike might view him that way. And so must William in retrospect otherwise he would have shed that facade once the soul was restored.

 

[MarieVampSlayer]

I don't see why he would. He still has the Spike facade firmly in place post- ensouling. The whole point of a facade is to cover up what's underneath. I'm not saying William was a loser but Spike might view him that way. And so must William in retrospect otherwise he would have shed that facade once the soul was restored.

Yeah that was a lost opportunity on the writers to show Spike could be a badass even with his William persona. I just think they forgot what a soul was meant to do to a vampire and what it had done to Angel before!

 

[RomanticSoul]

@Taaroko I think it makes more sense for Buffy to have echoed the line unwittingly. It makes it more of a gut punch for Spike and shatters the confident illusion he's been cultivating of her secretly wanting him.

Buffy can be deliberately cruel at times though. We've seen it before.

IMO you have to see it in context. By this point the show was completely plot driven. Buffy normally doesn't say words like that...and what are the odds she would say those exact words. The whole thing was designed to gain 'sympathy for the killer', as is often the case from S5 on.

 

[Mylie]

Well maybe he would talk about it now that he has a soul and maybe wouldn't view William as a loser. Actually he wasn't, he just was more feelings than brawn and now he can be a little bit from both.

But back to topic, yes Spike and Buffy also had chemistry and I think that anybody who denies Bangel or Spuffy had chemistry is just in denial!

Speaking for myself... I am not in denial. I see it as an attempt at chemistry (at least from one side) and it just doesn’t feel natural at all. I actually want to enjoy that pairing, it would make this show much more enjoyable to me and my view of Buffy’s journey much more satisfying. So trust me, there’s absolutely no pros in me being in denial over this. I don’t see it and more importantly I don’t feel it!

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I used to think the flashbacks were objective too, but then I paid closer attention to the ways they're different from the flashbacks in "Darla." In FFL, Spike jumps off that box in the big group shot of the Fanged Four and struts towards the camera, whereas in "Darla," he's carrying Dru bridal style and kissing her.

I always thought the bridal carry happened after Spike jumped off the box. It did a wide shot of the 4 then a close up of Darla and Angelus then another wide shot of the 4 with Spike carrying Dru bridal style.

In FFL, he bonks into some random people on the street and stalks off irritably, and they don't look around. In "Darla," we see that those random people were Darla, Angelus, and Dru, who watched him stumbling off into an alley.

In FFL, the people move off camera and the shot focusses on Spike. In Darla, it focusses on the people instead of Spike.

In FFL, Angelus is covering his jealousy with boredom after Dru brags that Spike has killed a Slayer, but in "Darla," we see that it's because that was actually Angel, not Angelus, and he wasn't bored, he was trying to keep his companions away from some helpless missionaries.

I don't think this is a continuity error but shows a different perspective. So from Spike's pov it seemed like Angelus was jealous because he didn't know it was Angel, whereas "Darla" reveals the truth that it is ANgel and he was trying to keep the rest of the Whirlwind away from the missionaries. There is a slight difference in dialogue during that scene (which suggests the actors filmed the scenes twice rather than it being filmed at the same time and then just different angles and perspectives used) but other than that, I wouldn't say it was a continuity error. The audience were led to believe one thing because that's what the character was led to believe until it's revealed why Angelus/Angel was acting like that.

Oh, I do think she said that. I think that what he described in "Lovers Walk" was accurate. It was too fresh to be anything else. Hence Spike being super drunk and miserable. But by S5, he was obsessed with Buffy, so his representations of Dru would be revised to reflect that.

Or maybe Spike wasn't deliberately lying to make himself look better. The monks rewrote everyone's memories to include Dawn, maybe Spike's memories were rewritten too?

I prefer the Lovers Walk explanation and consider that canon.

 

[Taaroko]

I didn't say Spike was deliberately lying, I said he was buying into his own revisionist history, which is part of his "Spike" persona. And I was arguing *against* the idea of continuity errors, because deliberately filming those flashbacks as the subtly different recollections of Spike and Darla isn't a continuity error, it's awesome.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Or maybe Spike wasn't deliberately lying to make himself look better. The monks rewrote everyone's memories to include Dawn, maybe Spike's memories were rewritten too?

Whedon's refusal to make a coherent story and examine the consequences from every angle has always been a bad thing. We know the monks rewrote memories. But how far could they and did they take it? What about programming people while doing that. I said before but from the monks POV getting Riley out of the picture and Spike into it was preferable. Hence Riley's balls to the wall craziness while at the same time Spike 'falls in love' with Buffy. The fact that with Spike it was literally a switch being flipped was always very suspect to me. It makes no sense especially in light of what he thinks of Buffy and the kind of relationships Buffy prefers. Maybe the monks also changed his memories much further back just to get him there.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Maybe the monks also changed his memories much further back just to get him there.

Maybe all the way back to S2! By which they implanted subliminal messages in his wee little pea brain.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Maybe all the way back to S2! By which they implanted subliminal messages in his wee little pea brain.

I was thinking much further back than that. Because they had to sever the Spike/Dru love connection (and we are talking 100+ years of a relationship here) as it existed previously. Might also explain the retcon of Lover's Walk.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

But back to topic, yes Spike and Buffy also had chemistry and I think that anybody who denies Bangel or Spuffy had chemistry is just in denial!

I think its all about perspective and not all that fair to say we are in denial. Did you tell them over at the other thread they were in denial too? Lol 😉

 

[Fuffy Baith]

I see more of a frenemy chemistry. They're antagonistic to each other and might help each other out when it suits them but I don't see an romantic will they/won't they tension at all. When you compare the Sprusilla chemistry and the Bangel chemistry, it is completely off the charts in comparison to the Spuffy chemistry. Spuffy does not work as a romantic ship.

Pretty much this. Chemistry yes, but not romantic or even sexual really.

 

[BibliophileAnn]

Well maybe he would talk about it now that he has a soul and maybe wouldn't view William as a loser. Actually he wasn't, he just was more feelings than brawn and now he can be a little bit from both.

But back to topic, yes Spike and Buffy also had chemistry and I think that anybody who denies Bangel or Spuffy had chemistry is just in denial!

I guess that is true, but I wouldn't know. Yes Bangel has chemistry, but Spuffy doesn't and that is not denial talking. If they had chemistry I would see it and because I don't means it is absent. Just the way it is. I don't spend too much thinking about Spuffy since I am a Bangel.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Maybe all the way back to S2! By which they implanted subliminal messages in his wee little pea brain.

Except the Season 5 retcons didn't happen until AFTER the first 4 Seasons therefore the point still stands that Spike didn't have a romantic interest in Buffy in Season 2 because those events happened before Season 5 was even thought of.

Also, Season 2 Spike was smarter than later Seasons Spike. Spike's main flaw was his impatience, but he could plan like a pro. He achieved healing Dru, he achieved finding the gem of Amara, he achieved escaping the initiative, he achieved nearly driving the scoobies apart and only failed because of a minor slip up.

Spike is not stupid..... or at least he wasn't until he "fell in love" with Buffy.

I was thinking much further back than that. Because they had to sever the Spike/Dru love connection (and we are talking 100+ years of a relationship here) as it existed previously. Might also explain the retcon of Lover's Walk.

It says something when a relationship has to be deliberately destroyed purely to make another relationship fly. That was the point of Crush, to have Drusilla rejected by Spike then exit stage right so that the way was clear for Spuffy.

Tillow never needed to do that to Oz. Woz came to a natural end, Oz left, Willow moved on, Oz came back and wanted to reunite with Willow, the two of them realised things had moved on from what they were, Oz left again.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

What I’m reading a lot in... other posts... is that DB doesn’t sell the Bangel scenes and SMG carries the scenes.

And this is all a matter of personal taste (all of this is) but I love Angel’s restraint in his scenes with Buffy. I think his reactions are loaded but held back and I see a lot there. It’s part of Angel’s character. I think it’s a good balance to Buffy & SMG’s acting style. If not the scenes can start to look like theatre acting. Which isn’t bad but it’s not great for TV.

 

[Taaroko]

Agreed, @dcai0830. David may have been learning on the job in S1, but even then I never had a problem with his performance, because it kinda worked for Angel's social awkwardness after not interacting with people for decades. (I have a harder time with the writers' apparent inability to do simple math when figuring out his backstory.) And Angel's restraint, as you say, is definitely a feature, not a bug. It's very gentlemanly and "still waters run deep" and all that. He doesn't need to be dramatically demonstrative; you can see how much Angel cares for Buffy just in his eyes and the way he leaps into action the second he sees her in danger. I'd take that quiet, respectful yearning over Spike's pushiness and unsolicited declarations of love any day, and so would Buffy.

Which goes back to the chemistry. Even in S7, Angel makes Buffy's eyes light up just by being there, but when she's supposedly having a powerful moment with Spike, like their night of just holding each other in "Touched," her eyes look pretty hollow, like she's settling or he's wearing her down and she knows it.

 

[NileQT87]

Sorry, but I love DB's acting and his reactions. He's actually very expressive right from the start.

That's why I'm constantly infuriated by people saying he doesn't smile or cry, because I can give you photo after photo proving it wrong (including with Buffy on BtVS). Angel also always had a self-deprecating or black dry humor (DB excels at dry humor and that has always been his style). It's false that he was just a boring brooder in BtVS (such garbage) that didn't emote. While he doesn't hyperventilate (like Alyson) and he's more stoic with quiet suffering, he still does emote a lot.

He was instantly one of the most interesting parts of BtVS right from his first scene and it's because of DB's charm and charisma that was there right then. You knew immediately that the other guys so far introduced didn't stand a frickin' chance. It was more than just his looks. He also was the mystery to be solved. DB very much played that up by teasing Buffy and the audience with his expressions and sly humor, but also previewed that there was more going on with him on a more serious level very early on (The Harvest).

I HATE reading about SMG carrying scenes, because it's NOT TRUE. This just has been repeated so often by Spuffy 'shippers who hate DB and Angel viciously that even Bangels feel they have to be apologetic about it and start saying the same things. DB never gave a horrible performance (I can think of other actors who did--CC in Tomorrow is a big one).

I actually find myself sypathizing a ton with Angel because of how he's performed. There are lots of subtle things in DB's performance that are just beautiful and very emotive. He shows amazing vulnerability and tenderness for such a big Alpha jock of a man with a sweet, soft voice, while also being able to turn on a dime into incredibly intimidating, powerful and dark. And no, I don't just mean just his Angelus performance; this was already present as of 1x07 when he monologues and came out several times even before Innocence (What's My Line? comes to mind). Angel was always presented as being a bit more than he might have initially seemed. Even his more confident first appearance turned out to be a façade for a deeply broken individual by the second episode.

He gave many great performances right from the start. 1x07 is the episode that pretty much figured out what the show was doing and elevated it beyond Goosebumps. DB deserves a lot of the credit for being a big part of that. The WB was thrilled by him and Bangel. This is all part of the post-series rewrite to minimize the fact that he was a massive part of the show's initial success and it wasn't actually so shocking to everyone that he was given a spinoff (contrary to this current received wisdom that nobody liked the character and everybody thought he was a horrible actor), given he was the most obvious character for it with an actor who so quickly proved he could lead many shows.

Some people seem to equate being the equivalent of the Fonz with charisma. This idea that only big, flamboyant, showy characters are the only ones with charisma is quite wrong. Those characters are mostly sidekicks, not leads. Both BtVS and AtS suffers from a fanbase that can't figure out who the dramatic leads are and why the shows have to be about them instead of the funny sidekicks.

David Boreanaz was called on to give serious performances with a ton of pathos, not just big audience-pleasing comedy sidekick performances. And he had to actually act for the part of Angel, since he was not just playing himself as so many do.

 

[Antho]

I never had problems with David Boreanaz's acting. I don't think he is the best actor of the series but he is certainly not the worst either. He gives his best I think and that's all we ask to an actor so he did his job and he did it well for me ! The fact is people say he is a bad actor or he is monotonous, dull, but come on just look at his career... look at how the guy has improved over the years. He is one, maybe THE ONE, of the actors of Buffy who has the best career after Buffy. And where are all the others great actors of the show, not on my screen !

 

[NileQT87]

A good example of a scene everyone only wants to talk about SMG's performance in: Becoming, pt. 2. Yet, I'm always so focused on his sad eyes and confusion. How lost he looks is absolutely heartbreaking and the worst part of that scene. That's what adds to Buffy's pain for what she must do. He's the one looking innocent to everything going on around him, because the last thing Angel remembers is the night of Surprise. That's the part of the scene that actually kills me! One of my favorite bits of acting from DB is that little shoulder kiss during the hug. It's a moment that really reminds us that his last memories are of loving Buffy and he's comforting her sweetly, even though he doesn't fully know why she's so sad. Both give great performances.

The Amends hilltop scene has one of my favorite line deliveries ever from DB. "Am I a righteous man?" This and the line about how it's the man who needs killing are two of my favorite parts of that whole scene. It's NOT SMG who carries it by herself.

Sometimes his stoicness (as in, not begging desperately or being a blubbering mess) is because he's trying to comfort and protect, but you can still see his reactions very much at the same time. He often has an imploring expression or a regretful one.

He's not monotonous. If he were monotonous, he wouldn't have the soft, sweet voice, the mockingly sarcastic voice and the threatening, angry voice. He smiles, laughs and cries plenty, but he's still a dramatic, serious, maturely-written character driven by pathos at the core. Monotone is Ben Stein, not David Boreanaz.

 

[RomanticSoul]

He's the one looking innocent to everything going on around him, because the last thing Angel remembers is the night of Surprise. That's the part of the scene that actually kills me!

This is something that took me forever to realize. Because I'm usually so focused on Buffy in that scene. It took me a while to connect the dots from the flashback of his first ensouling to that scene. That it takes a while to access those memories, probably because it's all jumbled at first. And then the scene became even sadder for me. He has no idea what's going on but he sees that Buffy is distressed and he wants to comfort her because that's Angel. And then she stabs him and he goes to hell, having no idea why. Ouch.