Believability

[Xin Rong]

I saw this on here once but the fact that sunnydale is said to have a beach which seems to disappear in series 7 when sunnydale gets sucked into the hellmouth...

also the fact that in series 5 when buffy goes up against a goddess she doesn't think to ask faith or angel or anyone else for help

 

[Icarium]

I disagree. I believe that the series did a very good job in supporting the idea of extreme prejudice against what any social group would consider to be an "Other".

Except vampires and demons are not really social groups. Might as well claim that CSI, NCIS, Bones and the likes promote bigotry towards the social group of murderers. Like it or not, the vast majority of "others" in the show are evil. This is not a myth that the Scoobies created to make themselves not feel like mass murderers, that's the way the Buffyverse was set up. If you don't like that concept I don't know why you bothered to watch the show the show at all, since it's pretty much the foundation of it.

The difference between us and vampires is that we have slaughterhouses and farmers to do the job for us. But we sure don't mind eating other beings. Or using other beings for reasons other than food. And let's be frank. Humans are basically aggressive beings who are quick to use an excuse to indulge in violence or support a violent action against someone or a group we don't view as one of "us".

Yes, humans are bastards. So? Vampires and demons are even worse. Should humans just offer their throats to vampires because they themselves aren't perfect? Vampires are basically an embodiment of the worst traits in humans, with added superpowers. To say that humans are just as bad is pretty much the same as saying every human is as bad as Hitler and Stalin.

 

[zobothehobo]

Are you talking about the hypnosis part? Because I recall a certain other Slayer also dying as soon as she faced a vampire who had hypnotic powers. Unfortunately, Xander was knocked unconscious this time around. 🙂

No, before the hypnosis. As soon as Kendra sees Dru and they she takes a swing and I believe near misses. And Dru blocks her a couple times before doing the hypnosis. It's really quite pathetic. I didn't realize how terrible it was before I just did a season 2 re-watch and I got to that scene and I was like "what the hell?"

 

[InsaneMystic]

Except vampires and demons are not really social groups.

They're basically races/species... so it is a matter of racial bigotry.

Like it or not, the vast majority of "others" in the show are evil.

If one believes in the concept of "evil", maybe. I don't.

This is not a myth that the Scoobies created to make themselves not feel like mass murderers, that's the way the Buffyverse was set up. If you don't like that concept I don't know why you bothered to watch the show the show at all, since it's pretty much the foundation of it.

So, just because you don't like one cheap-ass element (morality, in this case), you should throw it all away? Rated against standards like that, most every book ever written, every movie and every show ever made is garbage utterly beneath my notice.

To say that humans are just as bad is pretty much the same as saying every human is as bad as Hitler and Stalin.

Yes, we are. So?

 

[Icarium]

They're basically races/species... so it is a matter of racial bigotry.

Not really. If I hate serial murderers, does that make me a bigot? I don't think so. Vampires are pretty much superpowered serial murderers.

If one believes in the concept of "evil", maybe. I don't.

So you think Buffy is a mass murderer then because she kills all those vampires and demons? Whether you believe in evil in our world or not is not very relevant, it's the way the show is set up. I don't believe in magic but I enjoy fantasy shows and books nevertheless.

So, just because you don't like one cheap-ass element (morality, in this case), you should throw it all away?

Morality is pretty much the foundation of the show. Why does Buffy risk her life on a daily basis? Because she doesn't want innocent people to get killed. The dramatic conflict in the most popular episodes is mostly driven by moral dilemmas - is it okay to kill Angel? Dawn? Spike? Warren? Is the Counil's approach of end justify the means or The Initiative's scientific one better than Buffy's approach to dealing with supernatural menaces? Is it okay to sacrifice Willow for the good of Sunnydale? And to get to the original point - killing vampires being shown as a heroic feat, not a crime. It's the basis of the show, really. I think it's normal to ask why someone would watch a show if they think that such ideas are lame. Same way as I would wonder why someone would watch say "Bones" if they have no interest in murder mysteries or "Friends" if they don't like sitcoms.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Not really. If I hate serial murderers, does that make me a bigot? I don't think so. Vampires are pretty much superpowered serial murderers.

Arguably, yes. And if a race/species is intrinsically predisposed to be serial murderers, hating s.m.'s automatically makes you a racist.

So you think Buffy is a mass murderer then because she kills all those vampires and demons?

Yes, she is. While we certainly can argue about whether or not those murders are justifiable, the Slayer is doubtlessly a murderous vigilante by her very nature.

Morality is pretty much the foundation of the show.

I thoroughly disagree. If I saw it like this, I definitely wouldn't enjoy watching the show (much as I don't enjoy firebrand televangelist preachings). The foundation is "Beverly Hills 90210 with monsters" - a mix of campy horror, quippy comedy, cinematic kung-fu action, and highschool drama that is highly entertaining... enough so to make one overlook any of the morality claptrap, except when that's rubbed in one's face (e.g., The First) - in those moments, which are thankfully rare, the show does become annoyingly lame.

Why does Buffy risk her life on a daily basis? Because she doesn't want innocent people to get killed. The dramatic conflict in the most popular episodes is mostly driven by moral dilemmas - is it okay to kill Angel? Dawn? Spike? Warren? Is the Counil's approach of end justify the means or The Initiative's scientific one better than Buffy's approach to dealing with supernatural menaces? Is it okay to sacrifice Willow for the good of Sunnydale? And to get to the original point - killing vampires being shown as a heroic feat, not a crime. It's the basis of the show, really. I think it's normal to ask why someone would watch a show if they think that such ideas are lame. Same way as I would wonder why someone would watch say "Bones" if they have no interest in murder mysteries or "Friends" if they don't like sitcoms.

This just shows that you're watching the show through your own, subjective lense. Being a moralist, you see it mostly as a morality tale. That's not what the show is about, it's what your perception of the show is about.

 

[caitaintdead]

zobothehobo agrees: Yeah, and the having perfect hair when they get up.

Yeah, and makeup! What kind of person gets randomly woken up in the middle of the night, and they're wearing makeup!? STUPID!

 

[Icarium]

This just shows that you're watching the show through your own, subjective lense. Being a moralist, you see it mostly as a morality tale. That's not what the show is about, it's what your perception of the show is about.

Get off that high horse, will you? It's a fact that much of the dramatic conflict in BtVS is based on the moral dilemmas faced by the characters. How tough it is to do what you think is right, that sort of thing. Whether you like that or not is irrelevant. It's not "my interpretation", it's an integral part of the show. You are free to dislike it or ignore it - I myself do that with S6-7 but I don't claim that said seasons are merely someone's interpretation, as much I don't like it, they were actually produced. 🙂

Arguably, yes. And if a race/species is intrinsically predisposed to be serial murderers, hating s.m.'s automatically makes you a racist.

Not if 100% of the members of that "race" are indeed vicious killers. Might as well claim that people who are afraid of rabid dogs are bigoted towards dogs and not, you know, afraid to not get bitten and infected. Bigotry implies disliking certain groups of people because of wrong generalizations, when said generalization are quite precise, this's an actual reason to dislike those people, not just prejudice. It's one thing to dislike serial murderers for what they have done and quite another to say hate all men because most serial murderers tend to be men. Vampires are not "predisposed" to be serial killers - they are serial killers. Or at least try to be. Freaking Harmony is a serial killer.

I thoroughly disagree. If I saw it like this, I definitely wouldn't enjoy watching the show (much as I don't enjoy firebrand televangelist preachings).

Strawman much? Showing moral dilemmas isn't necessarily the same thing as preaching to the viewers. Yes, it can be combined with preaching (cough, S6's "Drugs are bad" nonsense, cough) but so can everything. I am kind of at a loss how once can ignore all the dilemmas and call it "morality claptrap". Do you find much to enjoy in say Lie to Me? Because if you remove the moral dilemmas faced by Buffy and Ford you basically remove the entire main plot line of the episode. Same can be said for many storylines. I am curious what you like in them, if anything.

 

[Tome]

As I've said in the past, I don't usually care about these things when I watch a tv show, even less if it's one with a lot of fantasy elements in it. But like everyone I've noticed some things that made me ponder how come Joss and co couldn't have thought of a better way to play this or that out.

Here are some...

- Why didn't The Master just snap Buffy's neck after drinking from her to make sure she was dead? That just reeked arrogant stupidity.

- Buffy couldn't break some ropes around her wrists that had been tightened by a young girl(Marcie)? What the freaking hell!

- That previous one lead me to one of the most unbelievable thing in the show... How characters who have supernatural strength suddenly seems unable to move, break, shatter, push various things/people that they usually had no trouble with.

- Why the hell would Billy's coach go to the hospital after what he did? Sure, he thought Billy wouldn't wake up, but why take the risk?

- Eric's character in 'Some Assembly Required'. How was such a psycho not kicked out of school sooner?

- Why were the charges on Buffy dropped in 'Ted'? Did they even find out he was a robot? And how would they have explained that haha?

- The easiness with which pretty much anyone can end the world in the Buffyverse... Come on, if it was as easy as what those three demons did in 'Doomed' then it would have happened centuries ago... One slayer in all the world. I'm sure demons could have pulled it off in secret, jeez. This always bugged me so much when I thought about it, because it makes saving the world pretty much insignificant.

- Xander getting smacked around by Olaf's hammer and not having a bunch of bones broken or worse... Seriously that was a perfect example of a scene where you have to suspend disbelief. 😉

There are plenty more of those, but I'll let others post now!

 

[InsaneMystic]

Get off that high horse, will you? It's a fact that much of the dramatic conflict in BtVS is based on the moral dilemmas faced by the characters.

It's you who's on the high horse. That's not a fact, that's your interpretation.

Not if 100% of the members of that "race" are indeed vicious killers. Might as well claim that people who are afraid of rabid dogs are bigoted towards dogs and not, you know, afraid to not get bitten and infected. Bigotry implies disliking certain groups of people because of wrong generalizations, when said generalization are quite precise, this's an actual reason to dislike those people, not just prejudice. It's one thing to dislike serial murderers for what they have done and quite another to say hate all men because most serial murderers tend to be men. Vampires are not "predisposed" to be serial killers - they are serial killers. Or at least try to be. Freaking Harmony is a serial killer.

That still is racism. Especially as I fail to see the "evil" in it, compared to the "good" of humanity. Liking to kill, maim, rape etc. doesn't make vampires evil. It makes them human. They only lack empathy - and not by their own choice - which is what's stopping humans to act on those very same impulses... usually. To paraphrase Anya: That doesn't make us better than vampires. It makes us luckier than vampires.

If you hate vampires for lacking empathy, you may as well hate people for say, their sexual orientation. Especially as many moral systems consider non-hetero sexuality "evil", anyway.

Strawman much? Showing moral dilemmas isn't necessarily the same thing as preaching to the viewers. Yes, it can be combined with preaching (cough, S6's "Drugs are bad" nonsense, cough) but so can everything. I am kind of at a loss how once can ignore all the dilemmas and call it "morality claptrap".

Because not everyone goes out looking for morality, like you? Morality is not what the show objectively is about.

Do you find much to enjoy in say Lie to Me? Because if you remove the moral dilemmas faced by Buffy and Ford you basically remove the entire main plot line of the episode. Same can be said for many storylines. I am curious what you like in them, if anything.

Said it before, but I'll gladly repeat it if you've chosen to conveniently forget: Dramatic character interaction, action fighting, humor. Besides, I don't see LTM as about "moral dilemmas", anyway.

Actually, I'm surprised that you cite Lie To Me, because I suppose liking the world drawn out in black and white must make the final, title-giving scene of that episode really irksome to you?

 

[Icarium]

It's you who's on the high horse. That's not a fact, that's your interpretation.

I think it's very much factual. Let's see - S2's main arc is based on Buffy's moral dilemma whether to kill Angel. S5's arc - whether Dawn is real and deserves to live. Many episodes revolve around things like how to deal with Faith, Anya, Warren, Spike. If the characters' morality is of no importance then these dilemmas become completely pointless, IMO.

That still is racism. Especially as I fail to see the "evil" in it, compared to the "good" of humanity. Liking to kill, maim, rape etc. doesn't make vampires evil. It makes them human.

I don't know about you but I don't like to kill or rape. So again with the strawman.

If you hate vampires for lacking empathy, you may as well hate people for say, their sexual orientation. Especially as many moral systems consider non-hetero sexuality "evil", anyway.

I "hate" vampires because they are vicious killers. You can't really say that about most gays and lesbians, can you? Kind of flawed comparison, to put it mildly. Yes, most vampires didn't choose to become vampires but this only makes putting them out of their misery even more paramount, IMO.

Because not everyone goes out looking for morality, like you? Morality is not what the show objectively is about.

Much of the show is about morality. That's a fact. Just like how much of the show is about Spike - I don't like that fact but I don't deny it.

Besides, I don't see LTM as about "moral dilemmas", anyway.

Then what is it about, pray tell?

Actually, I'm surprised that you cite Lie To Me, because I suppose liking the world drawn out in black and white must make the final, title-giving scene of that episode really irksome to you?

Well written moral dilemmas are great exactly because they are not black and white. Ford has a compelling reason for what he does but Buffy has a very good reason for staking him. That's what makes the episode so good. Similarly in Becoming Xander has a very good reason to say "Kick His Ass" but there is a reason why many fans hate him for that.

Anyway, we are getting way off-topic and it will be probably better to agree to disagree or open a new topic.

 

[InsaneMystic]

I think it's very much factual. Let's see - S2's main arc is based on Buffy's moral dilemma whether to kill Angel. S5's arc - whether Dawn is real and deserves to live. Many episodes revolve around things like how to deal with Faith, Anya, Warren, Spike. If the characters' morality is of no importance then these dilemmas become completely pointless, IMO.

I simply marked the three most important letters. 😛

And I don't see those as the bases for S2 and S5. (Actually, both seasons get tremendously boring to me when I try to think of them fixated on what you consider the base; those "bases" are small tangents coming up occassionally).

Base for S2 arc: A boyfriend going bad after sex (emotional drama).
Base for S5 arc: Insertion of a new family member (emotional drama) who also happens to be hunted by a powerful enemy (oh, guess what? emotional drama).

I don't know about you but I don't like to kill or rape. So again with the strawman.

That denial of yours, indeed, is the root of the problem with moralism in general. I am human, so of course I would enjoy the rush of power physical aggression provides. Unlike you, I don't see the need to delude myself into being "morally better" than I am.

I "hate" vampires because they are vicious killers. You can't really say that about most gays and lesbians, can you? Kind of flawed comparison, to put it mildly. Yes, most vampires didn't choose to become vampires but this only makes putting them out of their misery even more paramount, IMO.

So, in the moral system you happen to adhere to, you happen to consider killing "more evil" than homosexuality. Big deal.

Much of the show is about morality. That's a fact.

No it's not... and it doesn't become fact by repeating it over and over, either.

Then what is it about, pray tell?

Lots of things... the will to survive at any cost, secrecy, betrayal of trust by a long-lost friend. It all boils down to drama. None of it do I feel the need to see through a moralist lense.

Well written moral dilemmas are great exactly because they are not black and white. Ford has a compelling reason for what he does but Buffy has a very good reason for staking him. That's what makes the episode so good. Similarly in Becoming Xander has a very good reason to say "Kick His Ass" but there is a reason why many fans hate him for that.

Actually, when you boil it down to what makes an ep good IYO, it all just gets lame to me. I don't give a damn about whether anyone's reasons are "morally right or wrong"; not any human's place to make a final judgement on that, anyway. It's more important if they are in character, and written well enough to provide interesting dramatic situations (optimally, with ample chances for insertion of quippy humorous lines, too).

Anyway, we are getting way off-topic and it will be probably better to agree to disagree or open a new topic.

Don't say things like "pray tell" and then finish like this, TYVM. Feel free to open a new thread now if you wanna (I fear that one'd get real boring, real quick, though 😛).

 

[Taake]

Please settle down guys and remember to keep the tone civil or the thread will be closed.

Thank you 🙂

 

[Icarium]

Sorry about that, I got carried away a little. I have posted a new thread about morality issues in the Buffyverse and InsaneMystic's more than welcome to continue the discussion there. Let me get back to the topic:

- Anya not knowing that vengeance demons can't grant wishes to other vengeance demons. Really, she spent 1120 years smiting people and doesn't know that?
- People still living in Sunnydale after vampires overrunning much of the town in The Wish. Call the army or leave, you idiots. Better yet, do both. 🙂
- Spike's chip somehow knowing how to distinguish humans from demons
- Dawn learning how to use a sword by watching Buffy. If that worked, many a TV and film viewer would have had a black belt in various martial arts, sharpshooter skills, boxing skills, and the ability to play their favourite sport almost on the level of its biggest star. 😀
- The Mayor being defeated by an explosion. Come on, a volcano eruption is rather different than a dynamite blast. If he was so vulnerable he would have been defeated by the army eventually anyway. Also, the Mayor being stupid enough to kill the volcanologist. There was no way the Scoobies were even going to know about that scientist, if it weren't for his murder.

 

[Willow My Love]

- Tara believing the demon story. She had the means to check it and apparently her dad knows nothing about magic but she believes it anyway? Why?

We tend to take what our parents say as fact. And when you're told something so often from when you're young, you believe it as fact. You don't want to believe your parents would like to you. That's how I find that believeable.

Willow and Tara never getting jobs through season 6 to season 7 (Willow mainly of course) to help Buffy out financially. Using up Joyce's will money too, who does that?! That bugs the crap out of me because Willow could have got a decent job with her intelligence and could have helped Buffy out a lot.

THAT ANNOYED ME TOO! Xander works, and Willow and Tara look at Buffy like puppydogs when they essentially tell her, "By the way, when you were dead, we squandered your inheritance, instead of putting it into a high-interest savings account and getting jobs ourselves." I mean, I understand they were in school, but how many people work and go to school? My first year of college, I worked three jobs AND went to school!

- Why didn't The Master just snap Buffy's neck after drinking from her to make sure she was dead? That just reeked arrogant stupidity.

That bothered me too. How did he know she had drowned? Why didn't he drain ALL of her blood?

- Why the hell would Billy's coach go to the hospital after what he did? Sure, he thought Billy wouldn't wake up, but why take the risk?

This seemed smart to me as to direct attention away from himself. What coach wouldn't go see his player when he's hospitalized?

- Spike's chip somehow knowing how to distinguish humans from demons

I always saw that as an aura thing.
==
Now my thoughts:
When Dawn was flashing back through the "People telling me I'm not real thing", why didn't she go back to Buffy telling her to stay away from her Mother? Why did Dawn never tell Joyce about that? I would have told my mom if my brother did that to me.

The "I'm getting high on black magic" thing really bugged me. It just did. And how did Amy, who was a rat for so long, know about this guy? How did she know he'd still be there?

So, Buffy has to keep her identity so secret, because it can put people in danger, but all these potentials that had watchers obviously knew who she was? How is that not dangerous? And did they tell their parents what they were? What about those who didn't know they were potentials? What did they tell their parents? "Bye, Mom and Dad! I'm off to go train with Buffy! She's a vampire slayer and I'm a potential slayer, so when she dies, I might be the next slayer. Please feed my cat!" Really?

The university thing never bothered me. My college has a Delaware campus. Delaware, OH is a small town. You blink, you're gonna miss downtown. I don't go to the Delaware campus, but it's there. (Sidenote: Clare Kramer is from Delaware, OH.)

 

[Icarium]

We tend to take what our parents say as fact. And when you're told something so often from when you're young, you believe it as fact. You don't want to believe your parents would like to you. That's how I find that believeable.

But Tara's dad apparently knows nothing about magic other than claiming that's it's a bad thing. Tara doesn't believe his claim about magic, so how come she believes his incredibly far-fetched story about the demon? For that matter, why did her father allowed her to study magic in the first place? The whole story is contradictory, IMO. The metaphorical parallels with religion are quite blatant but the problem is that Tara and her mother could check if they were part-demons or not, while the people in the real world who are told by authority figures that they are sinners or whatever can't really perform an experiment and see if that's true.

I always saw that as an aura thing.

Whatever it was, I don't get how the Initiative was supposed to have achieved as they had pretty much zero knowledge of magic. A chip that works on intent I can accept, even one that somehow distinguishes between Spike's intent to harm a human or non-human. But a chip that can distinguish between Buffy and resurrected Buffy or Tara and a part-demon Tara who looks totally human? Nah, that stretches my suspension of disbelief too much.

 

[prophecygrrl]

The college thing didn't really bother me much either, especially since for a lot of the UC schools (UC Davis, Irvine, and Merced for example), those towns are pretty small. The only thing that did stretch my imagination about colleges was that apparently in Reptile Boy, Sunnydale has a fairly well-established private university too? Lol. I think the writers just tacked on whatever they needed for the story onto Sunnydale. Some docks, an airport, sprinkle a couple of universities here and there, a beach in a landlocked town...😛

 

[BuffyThoughts]

I feel kind of dumb ...

- The Council not killing Faith while she was in a coma.

I have to admit, I never thought of that. I'm not sure they would kill her while she was in a coma, but they would've taken advantage of the situation somehow. They would've been irresponsible not to.

The university thing didn't bother me though. I live in a "twin city" with a combined population of about 100,000 people, including students when school is in session. We do have two universities, one of them state-founded and supported with about 20,000 students, and another a private school with about 2,000 students.

You'd think, however, that there would be much much dating between college boys and high school girls, more than is indicated.

Nor did the international airport bother me. I assume it was "really" a regional airport, where Giles would catch a short flight to Los Angeles for the trip back to London. Remember, there's an "international airport" in Ontario California too (about 40 miles east of LA).

 

[The Unspoken]

But Tara's dad apparently knows nothing about magic other than claiming that's it's a bad thing. Tara doesn't believe his claim about magic, so how come she believes his incredibly far-fetched story about the demon? For that matter, why did her father allowed her to study magic in the first place? The whole story is contradictory, IMO. The metaphorical parallels with religion are quite blatant but the problem is that Tara and her mother could check if they were part-demons or not, while the people in the real world who are told by authority figures that they are sinners or whatever can't really perform an experiment and see if that's true.

Ignorance is bliss? 🙂 Maybe she didn't want to deal with what being part demon would entail, and would rather postpone it as much as possible. And information on her demonic nature might not be available, similar to how the gypsy magicks have been long lost. As for her father not allowing her to practice magic; she might have done it in secret and hidden it from him.
Of course, this explanation probably gets rid of most of the metaphorical parallels of the episode...

 

[arabella]

Ignorance is bliss? 🙂 Maybe she didn't want to deal with what being part demon would entail, and would rather postpone it as much as possible. And information on her demonic nature might not be available, similar to how the gypsy magicks have been long lost. As for her father not allowing her to practice magic; she might have done it in secret and hidden it from him.
Of course, this explanation probably gets rid of most of the metaphorical parallels of the episode...

I always figured she practiced in secret. But to take what I hope is only a small leap in support of your ignorance is bliss theory, it seems likely to me that they would avoid just finding out for sure in the same way that people that may have genetic diseases (like say, Huntingtons) would avoid getting tested and knowing for sure. Sometimes knowing the big nasty is going to take over your body for sure is way worse than keeping that tiny hope alive that it might not.
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