Better final season and series finale: Buffy Season 7 or Angel Season 5

[Joshua]

Which series had the better final season and series finale? Buffy Season 7 or Angel Season 5? and which series finale do you prefer? Chosen or Not Fade Away

 

[Mr Trick]

I'm going to say Not Fade Away. Its close, and I think Chosen delivered a lot of good stuff, and I love the closer moments of it, but in some ways it did feel like a lot of other Buffy season finales, where as Not Fade Away did do something for ATTS.

I would say though than as a whole Buffy S7 is better than Angel S5.

 

[Lyri]

I think the end of BtVS destroyed by the comics.

The end of 'Chosen' was so bright and happy, Buffy was supposed to be able to get her normal life, allow other people to take up the mantle for her. Instead, she's right back where she started, up to her neck in apocalypses.

I liked NFA because it was a great bookend to the show - Angel went out the same way he came in, fighting in an alley. I really thought that was great.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Angel .. alley

Now that you mention it I never thought about how fond Angel was of alleys. Darla made him in one. He always slinked around Sunnydale in them. His son was born in one. He went out swinging in one. And I am sure there were plenty of moments in between. Angel and alleys go together like crisps and white bread.

 

[Mr Trick]

I think the end of BtVS destroyed by the comics.

The end of 'Chosen' was so bright and happy, Buffy was supposed to be able to get her normal life, allow other people to take up the mantle for her. Instead, she's right back where she started, up to her neck in apocalypses.

I liked NFA because it was a great bookend to the show - Angel went out the same way he came in, fighting in an alley. I really thought that was great.

But isn't the point than as the Slayer she can never live an ordinary life? The only thing I would have liked to have seen is maybe it hinting more at Dawn one day taking over from her sister. I do like those training sequences between the two🙂

 

[Lyri]

But isn't the point than as the Slayer she can never live an ordinary life?

The whole point of that scene at the end of the ep, when they were looking out over the crater, was to point out that Buffy wasn't alone anymore, that she wasn't the one who had to deal with everything, that she was able to have some semblance of a normal life. They literally changed everything that was 'normal' about being a Slayer, and yet, as we find out in the comics, Buffy's life didn't change at all. She's still the one who 'has' to deal with everything that happens. The comics ruined everything that was good about that scene.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The whole point of that scene at the end of the ep, when they were looking out over the crater, was to point out that Buffy wasn't alone anymore, that she wasn't the one who had to deal with everything, that she was able to have some semblance of a normal life. They literally changed everything that was 'normal' about being a Slayer, and yet, as we find out in the comics, Buffy's life didn't change at all. She's still the one who 'has' to deal with everything that happens. The comics ruined everything that was good about that scene.

And that she was free of it, and the burdens that comprised it. Having Dawn be a slayer would be torturous for Buffy. Because it would be 'dooming' her little sister to the same system that enslaved her for a large part of her life.

 

[Mr Trick]

Well that maybe why I don't really want to read the comics. I do think they ended the show strongly (am starting to think that S7 might be better than 6), so not sure I can see the comics adding much.

 

[smuffy]

The whole point of that scene at the end of the ep, when they were looking out over the crater, was to point out that Buffy wasn't alone anymore, that she wasn't the one who had to deal with everything, that she was able to have some semblance of a normal life. They literally changed everything that was 'normal' about being a Slayer, and yet, as we find out in the comics, Buffy's life didn't change at all. She's still the one who 'has' to deal with everything that happens. The comics ruined everything that was good about that scene.

I think that Buffy could never really deal with having a normal life. She has shown that slaying is what she can do, the problem that she can solve. As for being the one person that has to deal with everything, that just comes down to her being the hero. She's the leader and the protagonist, the comics wouldn't really work that well if all these problems fell onto somebody else.

And I prefer Not Fade Away as a final episode. I suppose I just liked the timing of it compared to Chosen, which felt rushed and abrupt.

 

[adzpower]

Chosen was better because it didn't have the awful cliff-hanger.

 

[YummySushiPJs]

I don't really like the whole storyline that Buffy ended on, although the final scene was nice. Overall I prefer the ending of Angel - it was so dramatic and visually impressive. Granted I wasn't as invested in the characters on Angel as I was the characters on Buffy, so I was never really bothered about Angel ending on a "cliff-hanger". Personally, I didn't really see it as a cliff-hanger though.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

She has shown that slaying is what she can do, the problem that she can solve. As for being the one person that has to deal with everything, that just comes down to her being the hero. She's the leader and the protagonist.

But the point of the Buffy finale, and why it was closure for the character, is that now she has a choice. A choice she never had before. And time and again throughout the series we were shown that is all that she really wants.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Not Fade away was so much better in my opinion. Chosen happened as BtVS had lost its way and had become less interesting. It was the sad death of an old hero in his old age, long after his best years had passed, when he should have died gloriously in battle in his best years instead. Not Fade Away happened during the show Angel's peak. And it was a better story running up to the end, far better. S7 buffy was boring and full of issues. It was less compelling and when it finished I was relieved. Had they gone a very different direction and not lost tight focus with a tight and compelling storyline, it could have been amazing. As it stands, Chosen was anticlimactic for me. I've given my reasons for disliking s7 elsewhere.

 

[thetopher]

Without the comics? Then S7 is more satisfying and 'Chosen' is by far the better ending because it stays with you, it matters. There's also the feeling, like with a few of the others seasons of the show (3 and 5 specifically), that this is just the end of another chapter. Tomorrow something new and fresh will happen to all the characters.

'NFA' just leaves me with this slightly hollow 'huh, well I guess their all dead then.' It's sad but its an ending-finished- there's not much more to think about.
(Not that there isn't some appeal in that blaze-of-glory type ending)

With the comics out there then overall Angel S5 comes out better because the quality of the season/story telling is just better. It's not perfect, a lot of the first third is pretty ropey imo, it takes a while to get used to the new setting. There are some terrible episodes (worse than anything in Buffy S7, sorry) and it makes the Scooby's look like a**holes off-screeen for no real reason but a lot of the second half is Angel at its best; dark, heartbreaking, funny and epic.

So Angel S5 for me.

 

[Mr Trick]

Without the comics? Then S7 is more satisfying and 'Chosen' is by far the better ending because it stays with you, it matters. There's also the feeling, like with a few of the others seasons of the show (3 and 5 specifically), that this is just the end of another chapter. Tomorrow something new and fresh will happen to all the characters.

'NFA' just leaves me with this slightly hollow 'huh, well I guess their all dead then.' It's sad but its an ending-finished- there's not much more to think about.
(Not that there isn't some appeal in that blaze-of-glory type ending)

With the comics out there then overall Angel S5 comes out better because the quality of the season/story telling is just better. It's not perfect, a lot of the first third is pretty ropey imo, it takes a while to get used to the new setting. There are some terrible episodes (worse than anything in Buffy S7, sorry) and it makes the Scooby's look like a**holes off-screeen for no real reason but a lot of the second half is Angel at its best; dark, heartbreaking, funny and epic.

So Angel S5 for me.

But I think you have to try and think about each show and how they ended outside of the comics they are just like another chapter or a different way to explore the universe for me.

I have no issues with the final episode of Buffy, but I just felt that the final episode of Angel was just more dramatic and stood out more as something a bit different.

Not Fade away was so much better in my opinion. Chosen happened as BtVS had lost its way and had become less interesting. It was the sad death of an old hero in his old age, long after his best years had passed, when he should have died gloriously in battle in his best years instead. Not Fade Away happened during the show Angel's peak. And it was a better story running up to the end, far better. S7 buffy was boring and full of issues. It was less compelling and when it finished I was relieved. Had they gone a very different direction and not lost tight focus with a tight and compelling storyline, it could have been amazing. As it stands, Chosen was anticlimactic for me. I've given my reasons for disliking s7 elsewhere.

I used to have a downer on S7 but having seen it again recently I think it has a lot more going for it than many seem to. It takes the shows back to the its roots, with some of good MOTW episodes, the protentials did make for a good storyline even if they should have done more with it, the return of the first evil was a nice twist, NF's nasty preacher was a good villain. The growth of Dawn as maybe a future Slayer and as a person is very good. I like the stuff with Robin/Spike and Robin's Mum in the past. Faith being back and on the good team added something different, and I did like the build up to the final battle, even if the battle itself maybe could have been better. On and the final shot is just awesome.

As for your first point I guess its that old chestnut about should Buffy have ended with S5 or did it justify two more seasons? And its a tough call. Because I love the show so much and think they still did some interesting things over those final two years then I am going to stick up for, but I can see the other prospective too.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I used to have a downer on S7 but having seen it again recently I think it has a lot more going for it than many seem to. It takes the shows back to the its roots, with some of good MOTW episodes, the protentials did make for a good storyline even if they should have done more with it, the return of the first evil was a nice twist, NF's nasty preacher was a good villain. The growth of Dawn as maybe a future Slayer and as a person is very good. I like the stuff with Robin/Spike and Robin's Mum in the past. Faith being back and on the good team added something different, and I did like the build up to the final battle, even if the battle itself maybe could have been better. On and the final shot is just awesome.

As for your first point I guess its that old chestnut about should Buffy have ended with S5 or did it justify two more seasons? And its a tough call. Because I love the show so much and think they still did some interesting things over those final two years then I am going to stick up for, but I can see the other prospective too.

1. I hardly love more than 2 or 3 episodes of S7. My opinion is it is the worst of the Buffy seasons. I've given my reasons in the past and it would take too long to reiterate everything, but the entire potentials/first evil idea I would have trashed entirely for something completely different.

2. Back to its roots how? It's silly and the scoobies are almost secondary characters with the focus on Buffy/Spike/potentials. God I hate the potentials, sorry, I have to say it again. It was a stupid idea in my opinion.

3. They didn't give enough for Dawn to grow into an independent person with her own tool set if you ask me. I like Dawn a lot and but I find her more inoffensive than interesting in S7, and most people on the boards seem to think that. She is inoffensive to fans because she's pure background and innocuous almost every episode for the Dawn haters, thanks in good measure to the dozens of nameless and/or utterly boring potential girls everywhere. Who really gives a shit about all of these girls? I mean really, who? After a full season of god knows how many of them, what was the lasting impression and mark they left on all of us? Besides being just cute or nice or whatever? After all that, do we know them? Do we really care? People love the idea but no one can even list on the spot 5 of their names. Well, maybe many BBers can but I can't and I don't want to because they left no noteworthy impression on me at all.

4. Having Faith around made the season better, I agree. She was the one truly shining attraction of that season.

5. Robin, meh.

6. Final battle was alright, but anticlimactic when the whole season is taken into view.

7. I was on the fence for a long time about the debate about whether S5 should have been the finale. I really wanted to like S6 and S7, I really, really did when I got around to them, and even long afterwards I looked for excuses. But after all of this time and having rewatched everything as much as I have now, I can only make a reasonable defense (that doesn't make me blush with embarrassment) for S6, and only on specific (albeit crucial) points. And I can say that I liked the general idea for S6, if not in execution. I'll spare you those thoughts until it comes up again on a thread for that. But S7....I can't make friends with S7.

8. I liked nearly every episode in Ats S5. Sure, there were some that were much better than others, but I skip a lot of S7 at this point. And the build up to Not Fade Away was excellent. Suspenseful. Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco was about the worst one. Side by side, episode for episode, the final season of Angel was better to me. By a great distance. I looked at a list of them again just to make sure. But plenty of smart fans disagree I guess. Some really smart people I know whose opinions I hold in high regard even hate S5, which is my favorite.

 

[Mr Trick]

1. I hardly love more than 2 or 3 episodes of S7. My opinion is it is the worst of the Buffy seasons. I've given my reasons in the past and it would take too long to reiterate everything, but the entire potentials/first evil idea I would have trashed entirely for something completely different.

2. Back to its roots how? It's silly and the scoobies are almost secondary characters with the focus on Buffy/Spike/potentials. God I hate the potentials, sorry, I have to say it again. It was a stupid idea in my opinion.

3. They didn't give enough for Dawn to grow into an independent person with her own tool set if you ask me. I like Dawn a lot and but I find her more inoffensive than interesting in S7, and most people on the boards seem to think that. She is inoffensive to fans because she's pure background and innocuous almost every episode for the Dawn haters, thanks in good measure to the dozens of nameless and/or utterly boring potential girls everywhere. Who really gives a shit about all of these girls? I mean really, who? After a full season of god knows how many of them, what was the lasting impression and mark they left on all of us? Besides being just cute or nice or whatever? After all that, do we know them? Do we really care? People love the idea but no one can even list on the spot 5 of their names. Well, maybe many BBers can but I can't and I don't want to because they left no noteworthy impression on me at all.

4. Having Faith around made the season better, I agree. She was the one truly shining attraction of that season.

5. Robin, meh.

6. Final battle was alright, but anticlimactic when the whole season is taken into view.

7. I was on the fence for a long time about the debate about whether S5 should have been the finale. I really wanted to like S6 and S7, I really, really did when I got around to them, and even long afterwards I looked for excuses. But after all of this time and having rewatched everything as much as I have now, I can only make a reasonable defense (that doesn't make me blush with embarrassment) for S6, and only on specific (albeit crucial) points. And I can say that I liked the general idea for S6, if not in execution. I'll spare you those thoughts until it comes up again on a thread for that. But S7....I can't make friends with S7.

8. I liked nearly every episode in Ats S5. Sure, there were some that were much better than others, but I skip a lot of S7 at this point. And the build up to Not Fade Away was excellent. Suspenseful. Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco was about the worst one. Side by side, episode for episode, the final season of Angel was better to me. By a great distance. I looked at a list of them again just to make sure. But plenty of smart fans disagree I guess. Some really smart people I know whose opinions I hold in high regard even hate S5, which is my favorite.

1. No I still think the first season is the worst. The low budget didn't help, and I think it has 2 or 3 of the worse Buffy episodes ever. Not that season 7 is the best but I can't really think of any bad episodes in it, maybe one or two average ones. For me its pretty consistent all the way through, it just reach the heights of other seasons.

2. I meant back to its roots in two senses. First that like the early seasons you had a lot of stand alone monster of the week episodes which I do like and I actually think the ones in season 7 are pretty dark and scary at times. I also meant because because of the focus returing to Sunnydale high and that the narrative had come full circle execpt now with Dawn filling Buffy's shoes. I like things like that. I think it was more the excucation of the potentials that was silly than the actual storyline. I don't think it was a dumb idea in itself.

3. I will reserve judgement on the Dawn side of things until I have watched S7 again. But it impressed me how far her character had come since the fifth season, and MT really grows into the role.

5. Not saying I'm a big Robin fan, but I do think the twist with his mum being an ex-Slayer and one which Spike killed was an interesting one I like the storyline involving him and Spike and also how Giles gets involved.

6. I like the small human moments leading up to, during and after the final battle, the battle itself was anti-climatic, but I do think that might have been the point too.

7. I just think they did something different with the last two seasons and that there are enough good things episodes and storylines in S6 and S7 to justify them, but at the sametime I can see how S5 would have been a good conclusion. That is maybe where the show peaked. Look forward to those future debates🙂

8. I think we can agree on this. I used to be a bit down on S5 but the more I see it the more it impressives me. It might be because unlike four it doesn't have a host of great stand alone episodes which stand out as some of the best ever. But I think the narrative as a whole is much stronger in S5 and it is really consistent. Can't say I can think of many great episodes, but they are consistently good, and I there may just be a few avenage ones, can't think of any bad. Its a really good season I think.

 

[Myau]

This is a very interesting & tough question to answer.

I think Angel season 5 is fantastic, it's not my favorite Angel season but it's very, very well done on the whole. The stories, character development, Andrew's cameos - all of it really good & strong, except for that finale. It left too many unanswered questions.

Buffy season 7, is my favorite season. I loved the potential slayers, I loved seeing the high school again, I loved Andrew being tied to a chair. Again, all very strong for me except the finale. That final episode leaves me a bit cold, too many continuity blips, although less loose ends.

Both finales, were not as strong as they could be. Both felt unfinished. But I think I would have to say Buffy's final season & finale were better.

 

[Mr Trick]

This is a very interesting & tough question to answer.

I think Angel season 5 is fantastic, it's not my favorite Angel season but it's very, very well done on the whole. The stories, character development, Andrew's cameos - all of it really good & strong, except for that finale. It left too many unanswered questions.

Buffy season 7, is my favorite season. I loved the potential slayers, I loved seeing the high school again, I loved Andrew being tied to a chair. Again, all very strong for me except the finale. That final episode leaves me a bit cold, too many continuity blips, although less loose ends.

Both finales, were not as strong as they could be. Both felt unfinished. But I think I would have to say Buffy's final season & finale were better.

See I don't mind the Angel one ending the way it did. I do like when television leaves things up in the air for the viewer to work out or think about what might happen. As long as its done well then I don't mind, and it just seemed to fit with the way the narrative had gone in Angel. I'm thinking that maybe they knew that it would be returning in comic book form for those who wanted more.

 

[Myau]

See I don't mind the Angel one ending the way it did. I do like when television leaves things up in the air for the viewer to work out or think about what might happen. As long as its done well then I don't mind, and it just seemed to fit with the way the narrative had gone in Angel. I'm thinking that maybe they knew that it would be returning in comic book form for those who wanted more.

I'm pretty sure when it ended they were all assuming Angel was returning to television. Joss had pushed for an answer and got a "No" (I'm sure somebody will have more details or a source about this, I'm going by memory from an interview).

Which is why if I had the choice of Buffy or Angel returning for a series, I'd choose Angel.