Billy: Something in them or something that was done to them?

[Kana]

I was wondering about the Billy's power and how exactly it affects men.

Lilah seems to think Billy brings out an already innate 'primordial misogyny' in men. Angel seems to believe this theory and claims that he was immune to the effects of his touch because he lost the hatred it was suppose bring out.

Wesley worries that Billy brought something to the surface that was deep inside of him.

Fred argues that it was something that was done to Wes rather than the something inside of him. Her truth lies in the fact that Wesley doesn't want to kill her when the effects wore off.

So who is responsible? In the Angelverse, do all men have a latent misogynistic tendencies?

I personally believe that overall it was something done to them. Billy transfered his own hatred of women onto the men he touched.

Most of the men would rationalize the feelings they were having (of course doubting the concept of a magically induced hatred of women) and search for their own psyche to make sense of it. This is what I believed happened to Wesley. He never wanted to hurt Fred but she makes him nervous, and awkward. Unwittingly she brings out his insecurities, as do most women. His need to reassert control, was something, ironically forced upon him, yet his frustrations were most likely real and so closely linked to the feelings Billy transferred, it was difficult for him not to believe that this hatred was a part of him.

I also don't believe so readily in Angel's claim to virtue either. While I don't believe that misogyny is something inherent in all men, I believe all of us at one point or another are given to the frustrations and insecurities that come from encountering sex to which we are attracted. Not only that we do at times succumb to petty disputes that arise from past bitterness and memories of failed love. I don't believe Angel is above this and we only have to look at his interactions with others but this doesn't necessarily equate to this so called latent misogyny.

This really follows on to the idea that I don't really believe in a singular trait of misogyny that exists without context and mood. It is often linked with formed attitudes or control issues, or a myriad of complex emotions such as inadequacy, sexual frustions etc and the rage that may arise from these.

It is our choice how we deal with these emotions and that's what makes us who and what we are.

Considering Angel has these feelings, I'd say simply that he was immune because he was a vampire.

Could be completely wrong but what do you guys think? Something in them, or something that was done to them?
I actually believe that

 

[Blondie Bear]

I think it was something that was done too them. I don't believe Wesley had a misogynistic bone in his body. I have never seen him treat women any differently than he treated anyone else. He didn't always treat everyone well, but he treated Buffy and Giles about the same--badly. He treated Cordy and Angel about the same, too.

With Angel, I think it had something to do with the fact that he thinks everyone is below him (I get this from his tendency to decide what's best for others without asking them). He seemed to have to fight off the effects, but he could fight them off--because he didn't think any more of Billy than he did of Cordy. Does that make sense?

I think you're right, though, Kana, and that it's really more about the vampireness than anything else.

 

[DrusillaRox]

check it out! Im the first person to say it was something in them, Wesley went extremely dark toward the end of season 3 and more of this theory comes out in season 4, Its odd that it was only men though

 

[caritas08]

This is a good question. I confess I need to watch the episode again but the impression I got was that it was something deep down inside of them that they weren't really conscious of but had risen above.

 

[Karol]

My opinion is that every one has this evil inside, and the thing Billy could do, is bring to the surface the "hate" man have to woman. I´m mean, not all the man want to kill women at all, but they have it inside.
About Wesley, he was all peaceful this time, but later we discover the he *really* have a dark side.

Edit: and about Angel, maybe is the vampiry thing.

And Drusilla Rox, I dont think is weird being just man, is the crap he can do, and he can with man xD

 

[ItMustBeBunnies]

I was actually gonna post a thread about this! damn I got beaten to it! lol. I was watching Billy last night, it provokes so many different reactions in me. I really love Cordy in this episode it really shows how much she has grown as a character compared to her vain cheerleader days on Buffy. As for Wes he always struck me as the most harmless male character, apart from Lorne, the type of guy who would never hurt or disrespect a woman like that, so I tend to agree that it was something done to him not something that was inside him brought to the surface, but Im not so sure now. I notice that most of the responses to this thread are from females. Im really curious about the opinions of the males on the board, how does this episode make you feel? What do you think its trying to say about men? that you all have some kind of primordial misogyny?

 

[Lou]

I think it IS something inside them. But, not exactly that all men hate women and don't know it.
More that everyone has some rage in them and that Billy just had an effect on men that made the rage spill out toward the women in their lives.
We've heard the saying, "You always hurt the one you love"...well it's true.
I can't even count the amount of times I've been furious about 1 thing and take it out on someone I love just because they're around and I know they can take it and will forgive me.
Wesley, where I don't think he'd EVER hurt Fred or even had that secret desire to inside, I think he does have some rage against the council and his father. Gunn had his rage about the vampires and his family and friend's they'd killed.
I think Billy just took the rage that was inside of people and funneled it toward the closest woman around.

As for Angel being immune, I think it was part vampireness and part he really didn't have any rage toward humans anymore. He was truely there to save them and nothing else....most of the time. Not that dark time where he let Darla and Dru kill most of WR&H's members. But, most of the other times when he's not all dark and broody about Darla.

 

[MSchett]

Im a guy on the boards but i didnt really find it offensive, obviously it's not like all men want to hurt women deep down

But it Makes Great TV! Also I thought the episode was more female empowerment with Cordy going out to take Billy on alone, Fred taking out Gunn and Wes, and Lilah just shooting Billy

 

[ItMustBeBunnies]

I change my mind about Wes being harmless, I haven't watched Angel in awhile and am now a little bit into season 4, and the way he treats Lilah? not so freaking harmless!, although she gives as good as she gets I suppose.

 

[untouched]

Well, to me I think is actually something inside them. I think every men has that (and women too).
If you look at cases of domestic violence, many say that the other person looked harmless before and couldn't hurt anyone.
But the rage is inside everyone. Billy just had a way to put it all on the outside. And if you see most of the men that got inffected by Billy's power were trying to make the women to stop talking and to listen. Not that we talk too much or anything lol

 

[Washburne]

So I was gonna write but I don´t think I have much to add. These kind of sums it up.

My opinion is that every one has this evil inside, and the thing Billy could do, is bring to the surface the "hate" man have to woman. I´m mean, not all the man want to kill women at all, but they have it inside.

I think it IS something inside them. But, not exactly that all men hate women and don't know it.
More that everyone has some rage in them and that Billy just had an effect on men that made the rage spill out toward the women in their lives.

Well, to me I think is actually something inside them. I think every men has that (and women too).
If you look at cases of domestic violence, many say that the other person looked harmless before and couldn't hurt anyone.
But the rage is inside everyone. Billy just had a way to put it all on the outside.

But just to make my point clear if there was any doubt 😉

* I think everyone has hate/anger inside them not only men. And I do mean everyone.
* Billy had a way to "strenghten" those feelings and and "concentrate" them to be about women.
* Do I as a guy take offence in any way about this? Absolutely not.
* If my rage ever comes out (God forbid) I doubt it´ll have anything to do with the sex of the person. If anything I hate men more (in general) ...

 

[vicious sid]

beeing a man (well a teenager in fact but thats outside the point) and knowing that ven i can be like that id have to think that its something inside all of us, but i do believe that some can control those impulses better han the others., cuz its hard for me to imagine myself ever beating up my wife( if i get to have one) or mistreating whoever 's with me.

still i have to say thats something inside, because even anger and fury are emotions..and as all emotions they're brought up by an event of some sort. so i guess each and every person just has to find the best way for them to deal with such a thing..walking away , squezzing one of thoe strees balls or whatever

 

[Frketson]

i honestly believe that its not something that was deep down but rather something that billy "transferred" to every guy he touched.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

This is a great topic. I'm going to watch the episode now and come back tomorrow to comment 🙂

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I was wondering about the Billy's power and how exactly it affects men.

Lilah seems to think Billy brings out an already innate 'primordial misogyny' in men. Angel seems to believe this theory and claims that he was immune to the effects of his touch because he lost the hatred it was suppose bring out.

Wesley worries that Billy brought something to the surface that was deep inside of him.

Fred argues that it was something that was done to Wes rather than the something inside of him. Her truth lies in the fact that Wesley doesn't want to kill her when the effects wore off.

So who is responsible? In the Angelverse, do all men have a latent misogynistic tendencies?

I personally believe that overall it was something done to them. Billy transfered his own hatred of women onto the men he touched.

Most of the men would rationalize the feelings they were having (of course doubting the concept of a magically induced hatred of women) and search for their own psyche to make sense of it. This is what I believed happened to Wesley. He never wanted to hurt Fred but she makes him nervous, and awkward. Unwittingly she brings out his insecurities, as do most women. His need to reassert control, was something, ironically forced upon him, yet his frustrations were most likely real and so closely linked to the feelings Billy transferred, it was difficult for him not to believe that this hatred was a part of him.

I also don't believe so readily in Angel's claim to virtue either. While I don't believe that misogyny is something inherent in all men, I believe all of us at one point or another are given to the frustrations and insecurities that come from encountering sex to which we are attracted. Not only that we do at times succumb to petty disputes that arise from past bitterness and memories of failed love. I don't believe Angel is above this and we only have to look at his interactions with others but this doesn't necessarily equate to this so called latent misogyny.

This really follows on to the idea that I don't really believe in a singular trait of misogyny that exists without context and mood. It is often linked with formed attitudes or control issues, or a myriad of complex emotions such as inadequacy, sexual frustions etc and the rage that may arise from these.

It is our choice how we deal with these emotions and that's what makes us who and what we are.

Considering Angel has these feelings, I'd say simply that he was immune because he was a vampire.

Could be completely wrong but what do you guys think? I actually believe that

Something in them, or something that was done to them?

This is tricky. I've given it some thought and here's my stance...

Alright. So my whole take on this whole thing is that it was not something that was done to him. No one says anything to really convince me of that. Wesley seems to think he has some sort of demon lineage, but he says that about everything. Also, when he says this, he has already been affected by Billy. I think that the people he affects with his touch tells us something. Billy did affect Gunn and Wesley.
Both of these men, we find out later, have an intense darkness in them. Wes ends up, of course, stealing Conner and having a damaging sexual relationship with Lilah, and Gunn pushes the professor into the portal. I guess this is a type of forshadowing....both characters have an anger and hatred inside of them. For Gunn, I think it's at vampires in general, and with Wes I think he might have a little hatred towards women which would be not hard to imagine why... because of all his cases of un-requited and unlucky love (Cordy, Fred, what happened ot Lilah, Buffy firing him, etc)

And yes, I do believe that they both had some darkness in them, that was waiting to surface. I'm not saying they're bad people obviously, but the fact that Billy could affect them tells us this if we go with the theory.

In the case of Billy not affecting Angel, I don't think it's because he is a demon and I don't think Angel believes that either.

I agree that it's because he just doesn't have that kind of darkness in him - to hate women. Sure, Angel has darkness and anger in him for sure, in many ways, but I think it's more modivated towards men and demons, which explains why the touch didn't affect him and why he didn't turn on Cordelia like Billy had hoped.

So, I guess I'd agree with Lilah. I also don't think it's this simple. I think the whole moral of this episode just flows with one of the basic themes of the show; the darkness is in everyone and can come out at anytime. Angel is a very dark show.

Yes, he could be immune because he's a vamp. But the way he said it to Cordelia, it sounded like he didn't really believe that.

There's my two cents 🙂

 

[hazzard]

i believe that billy brought to the surface something that was in them.

 

[Frketson]

Something in them, or something that was done to them?

In the case of Billy not affecting Angel, I don't think it's because he is a demon and I don't think Angel believes that either.

I agree that it's because he just doesn't have that kind of darkness in him - to hate women. Sure, Angel has darkness and anger in him for sure, in many ways, but I think it's more modivated towards men and demons, which explains why the touch didn't affect him and why he didn't turn on Cordelia like Billy had hoped.

So, I guess I'd agree with Lilah. I also don't think it's this simple. I think the whole moral of this episode just flows with one of the basic themes of the show; the darkness is in everyone and can come out at anytime. Angel is a very dark show.

Yes, he could be immune because he's a vamp. But the way he said it to Cordelia, it sounded like he didn't really believe that.

There's my two cents 🙂

for me, i really think its as simple as him being a vamp. I dont care what he believes 😀

 

[palabravampiress]

It's an interesting episode. I just re-watched it (and about three more episodes) and, to be honest, I still don't know what I think. That Billy was part demon and that he had the power to infect people with his supercharged blood, sweat, etc. was made abundantly clear. That being the case, I think that the effect that Billy had on people was the result of something that was done to them -- or, to be more accurate, it was the result of some sort of demon fluid being introduced into the victims' respective systems. The question, then, becomes what did the demon fluid do?

I'm not sure. Did it trigger violent feelings and behaviors already present (yet suppressed) within the victim, or was the fluid transfer more along the lines of a miniature and much diluted vampiric transformation, in which the demonic substance alters the human shell in order to suit its needs?

I think I'm going to go with both. I think it works sort of like a viral infection. A virus is transferred in much the same way. Once inside a host, a virus kills and alters native cells. In many ways, the infected cells are no longer the host's cells, but are viral cells. The symptoms, however, are usually the result of an innate immune response brought about as an attempt to fight off the virus. A virus and its symptoms are foreign and beyond the victim's control, yet a virus does elicit an involuntary and innate response from the victim. I kind of think of Billy's touch as a virus and its effects as an involuntary immune response. No one blames a bronchitis sufferer for coughing, so I don't think we can blame the victims of Billy's touch for their reactions. It is involuntary aggression; however, I think it may also be innate. I think it's the body's reaction to the foreign, demon contaminate.

Of course, the analogy falls apart when you consider that coughing, like other immune responses, helps clear the infection from the body. I'm not sure how beating, verbally abusing, and killing women clears Billy's demon cooties from the system.

I'll have to think this over a bit more carefully. Great topic!

 

[Fusions2]

I watched this episode earlier tonight, and now I think back on it Im starting to think it was brought out in them. Maybe from something thats so primordial from like caveman era and stuff that when Billy touches them brings it out. It obviously takes different times to truly show its affect, thats why with Wesley it sort of built up and then exploded. With some men it was pretty much instant. Its so hard to say really but it seems like that that force thats deep inside guys is just magnified by Billy's touch.

It makes sense that Angel isn't affect by it even though he said he lost all anger and hatred like that years ago its still there. I took it that because Angel is also demon technically that anger and hatred is already at the surface but shown in a different way. But then maybe because Angel has a soul it just doesn't do anything to him and maybe on vampires without a soul it makes them 10 times worse.

Gosh this is hard to pin point or come to some kind of logical conclusion. I guess its one of those things where you just have to take it as it comes when watching the episode.

 

[zoelee]

i beleive that everyone has somethingin them, it may not be in their nature to do it but its there if pushed to far, im not saying it right but it's always there, wither u are human or if its a sci-fi shows.