Bin Laden human rights

[Skanky Vamp]

A man was killed so people could feel better? And payment? This one single life makes the thousands he is responsible for taking OK?

Yes.

Don't let it baffle you, babe. I just said what it is. And you can put a bow on a turd but its still a turd. Call it justice, call it causality of war.. truth is, its what I said it is. Have you SEEN the images of the people after the announcement?

---------- Post added at 03:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:51 PM ----------

You don't think they had a reason (even if you don't agree with it) and looked for "payment" the way they felt necessary?

Of course... since the dawn of time it's been that way.

Why did/do Al Qaida think so badly about americans?

Because we have freedoms they do not agree with and worship a dietary they do not recognize.

 

[Kean]

Yes.

Don't let it baffle you, babe. I just said what it is. And you can put a bow on a turd but its still a turd. Call it justice, call it causality of war.. truth is, its what I said it is. Have you SEEN the images of the people after the announcement?

Did you see the images of the people celebrating in Afghanistan when the Towers fell? Is that payment too? Is that feeling safer? If it is than I don't have the taste for it.

You may feel safer. But you aren't. None of us are. Not here in the West and not the people living in the actual war zones in the Middle East. That is why security has been increased since his death.

 

[Washburne]

Kean agrees: Is part of a series? It's very good

one of the best scenes from kurbaan bollywood movie(2009)....redefining terrorism....a muslim in US debating over invasion of white allied forces in afganistan & iraq.......l

And from imdb. Kurbaan

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I get it, what I am saying is that somebody needs to make it about what is right and just.

The only time that will happen is when we realize that there are no others; then it wont bother you that Spuffy is the true romance and Bangel is the artificial. We as a people many never evolve to the point where we can disregard othering and simply see people for who they are. So you may only see 'your/their' version of 'right' and not a universal one.

 

[Kean]

The only time that will happen is when we realize that there are no others; then it wont bother you that Spuffy is the true romance and Bangel is the artificial. We as a people many never evolve to the point where we can disregard othering and simply see people for who they are. So you may only see 'your/their' version of 'right' and not a universal one.

If I was going around killing Spuffies for what they ship you may have an argument but I gave that up 😛 lively, passionate debate, that sometimes gets heated, does not make these things on a par.

It's not even in the same universe.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I strongly believe in my deepest part of me that NO ONE is pure evil. You said he was pure evil in the other thread too. But someone somewhere must have loved him. There must have been someone somewhere that he loved too. You've made an assumption about him that you can't possibly prove. You don't KNOW him. You know what he did, you know how little he valued a human life... but you don't know him. He was more than his actions. He was a person. He had feelings and emotions. There must have been a time in his life he felt love and compassion towards someone.

You can't prove that he had anything but evil in him either. A person is defined by their actions, because actions speak louder than anything else. You can say whatever the eff you want to say, but you will never change my mind about him or what he deserved. Maybe if him and his followers were trying to blow up YOUR family on a regular basis, or bombing buildings closer to you, you might be able to see the situation for what it really is.

I find it hilarious that some of you people on this board are outraged and want nothing but the worst punishment possible for people like child molesters, but someone who has killed thousands of people in cold blood gets off scott free? Mmhhmm, ok.

And seriously, I'm not addressing anything else in this thread now 'cause I'm dangerously on the edge of painting a detailed picture of where you can go and where you can shove "Osama Bin Laden's human rights."

 

[zobothehobo]

You can't prove that he had anything but evil in him either. A person is defined by their actions, because actions speak louder than anything else. You can say whatever the eff you want to say, but you will never change my mind about him or what he deserved. Maybe if him and his followers were trying to blow up YOUR family on a regular basis, or bombing buildings closer to you, you might be able to see the situation for what it really is.

so because I'm not a military wife like you my opinion on the subject means nothing? I wasn't trying to change your mind, just explaining my opinion and this REALLY offended me. I do see the situation for what it really is. How would you feel if I said "maybe if you weren't so close and emotional invested in the situation, you'd be able to see what it really is"? I have the right to my opinion and the right to voice it and my opinion means just as much as your.

I know I can't prove that he had anything but evil in him but he's a human. I don't think that any human ever has been pure evil. I don't think any human ever will be. I don't believe it's possible for a human to be pure evil. So that's how I "prove" it.

I find it hilarious that some of you people on this board are outraged and want nothing but the worst punishment possible for people like child molesters, but someone who has killed thousands of people in cold blood gets off scott free? Mmhhmm, ok.

I want the worst punishment possible for both child molesters and someone who's killed thosands of people. As I said before, I think it was the right thing to do to kill him because I don't think there's another safer or more humane way to get him out of his position in Al Qaeda. However, it's not our right to decide who's life is worth living and who's isn't. As for child molesters, I want them to rot in jail. I am against the death penalty. We, as humans, do not have the right to say "this human's life is more valuable than that one's."

 

[Skanky Vamp]

It's not even in the same universe.

When you remove those pesky emotions it is. Once you go Vulcan you never go back.

 

[InsaneMystic]

It is a very similar problem this forum faced not so long ago.

I couldn't disagree more... if that had been similar to the problems we had here, I would certainly not have missed them if such (utterly stupid, and incompetently staffed) boards had got closed for good.


More on topic, I fail to see how you consider that "the problem" if you don't think the real issue of this thread is one. Following rules just because they are rules, regardless of the values behind them, is not what I think anyone should stand for. We had pretty much the textbook example of that over here in Germany 70 years ago, and guess what, back then the Allies - with Americans as their spearhead - weren't all that happy about how this country was run. (And they were unhappy with it for pretty damn good reasons, may I add. Trouble is, pretty much the same reasons should make them unhappy about the US in recent years.)

"Killing is bad because we say so, and we kill you if you don't agree" cannot be justice, because it's an insult to intelligence, so I don't think there's much to respect in such a legal system. If "it's forbidden" were the only reason not to kill, it's such a pathetic one that I would find it hard to blame people for ignoring it if they find a cause they think worthy to kill for. Like, e.g., bringing down such a moronic system.

Now of course, if you back the law vs. killing up with values, the sitch completely and dramatically changes. The part where "we kill you if you don't agree" gets pretty difficult to hold up though if you actually find values that aren't tinged with (more often, oozing barrelloads of) a hypocritical "we're better than you". And if you can't come up with something better than that, I fail to see what's supposed to be so bad in comparison about Al Qaeda's Jihad, because that's just what they do, too, isn't it? Blowing up the "infidels" because "Islam is better".

The only set of values I've found yet that lacked such hypocrisy was that of universal human rights, rights that you have, and irrevocably cannot ever lose, just by belonging to the species homo sapiens. And that means protecting the rights of Osama bin Laden not one bit less than the ones of the 9/11 victims.

 

[Ms.Trick]

You can't prove that he had anything but evil in him either. A person is defined by their actions, because actions speak louder than anything else. You can say whatever the eff you want to say, but you will never change my mind about him or what he deserved. Maybe if him and his followers were trying to blow up YOUR family on a regular basis, or bombing buildings closer to you, you might be able to see the situation for what it really is.

I find it hilarious that some of you people on this board are outraged and want nothing but the worst punishment possible for people like child molesters, but someone who has killed thousands of people in cold blood gets off scott free? Mmhhmm, ok.

And seriously, I'm not addressing anything else in this thread now 'cause I'm dangerously on the edge of painting a detailed picture of where you can go and where you can shove "Osama Bin Laden's human rights."

"Anything but evil"? No one is 100% evil, it's not like some were born pure evil and others not. Yeah, your actions define who you are, but your actions are defined by your background as well.
There is no doubt Bin Laden was born human. He was possibly a kid just like the others. How did he become a mass murderer? I don't know. But I'm sure he didn't wake up one day and thought "Hey, I'm going to kill millions of people". He has convictions, which are terribly wrong, and he murdered so many people because of those convictions.
And how do you get convictions? From your background. Had he another background, he would maybe have been a totally different man. I'm in no way trying to excuse the things he did. I'm just saying that I don't see him as 100% evil, I see him as normal human being who turned as wrong as someone can turn.

Even if Belgium never really suffered from his misdeed, I think I can see the situation the way it is. World Trade Center, London bombings...When I was younger, it made me scared of living. I knew that because of crazy people blinded by their convictions, Brussel might be next on the list. I could be on the subway, or in the street, and explode. Or I could find out my mum or my sister was in a subway that exploded. I was scared to death, and I hated that the world was like that. And because of him, there has been an increasing racism since 9/11. Arabic people are seen as sketchy. Islamic people have to justify that they are not extremists and don't have to be mistaken with those terrorists. I might not have been in the middle of the crisis, it doesn't change anything to the fact that I live in the consequences of it. We all do, in the whole world. I don't know anyone who died in the Twin Towers, but I saw the footages, on every channel. I saw all those people jumping from the building, choosing to either crash either burn. Don't think that because one's country or family wasn't attacked doesn't mean we don't know what it's like. The world changed after 9/11, and that's everywhere. So please, don't think people don't see the situation the way it really is, because we do.

And I must admit, I used to think "Some people shouldn't be allowed to live", like, say, child molesters. Now I don't think that anymore. I definitely think some people should be taken care of, but I will never, never be for killing someone else. No matter how disgusted I am by the very existence of the person.

There is this whole debate because we have different point of views. I'm not right, you are not wrong. I'm not wrong, you are not right. Now let's just respect everyone's view 😉

 

[Buffy Summers]

Okay everyone, let's take a breath. I know it's a heated issue but let's keep the discussion to the issue and not the person making the argument.

****

In my opinion Bin Laden's human rights is a non-issue because his weren't violated. They didn't march the guy out of the building, line him up against the wall and execute him. He was killed in an altercation with an opposing military force. Had he given himself up, he would be sitting in a military prison awaiting trial right now. He is a casualty of war. Whether the war itself was right or wrong is another issue, but Bin Laden was not assassinated as some here are posting as if he was.

So if someone steal my wallet and I found out who did it it's ok to burn down their house because that's what I find necessary payment for the suffering I went through?

But that's not what we're talking about here. What we're talking about is someone steals your wallet, you find out who it is and send the police to their house. The person starts shooting at the police and gets killed when the police return fire.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Scobro agrees: Killing is not bad though, its how and why the killing happened which makes it right or wrong.

And that's where I'll always disagree.

Hitler had, in his own mind, pretty damn good reasons to kill off the Jews. Al Qaeda had, in their own minds, pretty damn good reasons to blow up the WTC. Heck, your average run-off-the-mill murderer usually has a pretty damn good subjective reason for it, too.

Judging any of them for what they've done seems pretty conceited to me once you suggest killing isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[prophecygrrl]

You break the rules you can expect to pay.

That's assuming the rules are fairly and justly enforced. If the rule is "if you engage in acts of terrorism and kill innocents you must die for your crimes", then why do Bush and Blair walk free? Because most of the world thinks they were justified, even when it turns out that they weren't.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Scobro agrees: I didnt say its a good thing, or not ever a bad thing, just its not always. Upon second inspection, I didnt say that at all. My bad. I meant its not always bad. Surely you can agree there are times its justified.

Honestly? Self-defense or protection of someone else, and even in those cases, I'd strictly limit it to averting an immediate danger, with no chance of stopping the attack with lesser force. (Which, basically, boils down to the exact legal definition of self-defense under German law.)

Aside from that, the only other situation in which I could see killing not as a categorically bad thing would be assisted suicide, if the one to be killed explicitly and directly asks for his death.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Kean agrees: I don't even think most of the world does think it was justified.

True, I should've clarified. It's more accurate to say that most of the people who were in positions of power then (and now, actually) believed it was justified.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

That's assuming the rules are fairly and justly enforced. If the rule is "if you engage in acts of terrorism and kill innocents you must die for your crimes", then why do Bush and Blair walk free? Because most of the world thinks they were justified, even when it turns out that they weren't.

But no one said he had to die. They were not going in there, according to intel, to kill him. They did not go and assassinate Hussein, either.

Contrary to the public perception they are not trained to run in guns blazing, and I do not believe they did so in this instance, either.

 

[prophecygrrl]

But no one said he had to die. They were not going in there, according to intel, to kill him. They did not go and assassinate Hussein, either.

Contrary to the public perception they are not trained to run in guns blazing, and I do not believe they did so in this instance, either.

True, but the question being asked right now is whether or not he deserved to die as a human being, not really about intent. I'm sure in that situation there was no reasonable alternative. Doesn't mean that his death was right, just that it's what it came down to. Realistically I don't think there was another way things could have turned out anyway.

Or maybe I misunderstood. It just seems like we've come to a "do evil people deserve death" kind of debate.

Hussein was sentenced to death, wasn't he? Execution is pretty much the same as assassination when it comes to intent.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Execution and assassination are not the same things lol

 

[prophecygrrl]

Execution and assassination are not the same things lol

Yes, I understand that. Execution follows after due process. Ideally, anyway. I look at this as someone who doesn't believe in capital punishment at all, so if we're talking about who deserves death, then when it comes to intent, I don't see the difference. Maybe someone can explain it to me.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Am I missing something, discussing OBL's human rights?
What would he have thought of your human rights?
To all those who have posted in this thread, his notion of your human rights is this. Only those who are of Islam can live.