BtVS Season 7 Rewatch

[Mrs Gordo]

And D'Hoffryn has managed to annoy me when (he said "from beneath you it devours") I get it alright! Must they repeat it in every single episode! I wonder whose turn to mention it in the next episode.

Oh I know - I'm so over this! LOL. And it keeps happening right? I guess we'll have to spot them in the future.

Buffy chokes a vampire??? Why can the show not realize that's not a thing.

I agree this drives me bananas.

Which Buffy is the real Buffy? I've watched this episode many times, and the best clue is that Spike says "I have no where else to go" to the second Buffy, and Buffy eventually provides him with a place. But that doesn't prove anything.

Oh I didn't know this was in controversy! The second Buffy is wearing the outfit she wears throughout the episode and then the shooting script says this:
As this happens, we slowly PAN away from them. We find the doorway to the basement. And the REAL BUFFY walks in.
So I'm pretty sure the intent was that the second Buffy is the real Buffy and to show the distinction between the two. But what I don't know is if the first Buffy was TF or if it was just a hallucination?

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

All I know is that the moment where Spike realises the Buffy he shared a tender moment with was fake is absolute gold.

 

[Fool for Buffy]

Oh I didn't know this was in controversy! The second Buffy is wearing the outfit she wears throughout the episode and then the shooting script says this:
As this happens, we slowly PAN away from them. We find the doorway to the basement. And the REAL BUFFY walks in.
So I'm pretty sure the intent was that the second Buffy is the real Buffy and to show the distinction between the two. But what I don't know is if the first Buffy was TF or if it was just a hallucination?

Of course I don't notice the outfit detail. *facepalm*
I'm shocked that's how they have it in the script though. I've never been able to decide.
Still, I think it is a possible argument. The first (possible double meaning) Buffy's attitude seems much more like her in every other encounter she has with him.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I have been listening along with Hellmouthy during this re-watch. It's not super in depth analysis (the likes of Dusted) but its a good companion for me on this re-watch. They are doing a much better job than I think they did in the early seasons.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Conversations with Dead People:

Let me preface this review by saying this. I don't like pop psychology. I was a psych major and spent two years in a psych lab doing research for my undergraduate thesis, my husband is a licensed professional counselor and two of my good friends are psychologists. I tend to have a very clinical view of psychology and I don't really like when TV delves into outdated psychology theories and uses kitschy terms like "inferiority complex." These are just my personal biases and so they do tend to color the episode for me. I apologize in advance. But I do think that despite failed attempt at understanding what a therapy session should be - this episode is the first time we get a peak in the mind of Buffy in a long time. I do think it provides us some insight into her way of thinking and for that reason I appreciate the episode.

Bad:

• But what if I don't like what's in Buffy's mind? She is talking about how "all of her relationships" were doomed. What about Riley? Why was he doomed right from the start? Why was he someone it would never work with? Angel I get, he is a vampire. Spike I get, he was an evil vampire. But this doesn't apply to Riley.
• I find SMG/Buffy's mood or affect in this episode very forced. When she looks somber or morose it feels forced and disingenuous and it takes me out of it. I see her acting or something? I can't put my finger on it.
• I don't like how MT screams. But I also similarly believe that she would be great in a slasher movie. What is going on in the Summer's house? Is this TF?? Is it some random poltergeist?

Good:

• LOL @ Dawn in the beginning. She is so cute. And then she is so brave. Even though I can't stand her screams (see above) I am so impressed by her bravery.
• "Lotta kids thought you were dating some really old guy," 😉
• Holden is cool. I don't mind him. He is an interesting character.
• Poor Willow.

How Buffy feels:

I have always had the impression that Buffy struggled with insecurities. She was always wondering if she was good enough or deserving of relationships, love etc. That is not new. What is new, is this concept of her wanting to be punished. And then I feel bad because, sure Buffy's behavior towards Spike was wrong in s6 but does she blame herself for the AR? And if she does, how incredibly sad is that? I understand that this is an exercise in self flagellation and there is no room for her to blame the perpetrator when he isn't there and when this conversation is about her and not him but all she is doing is talking about what she did to him, what she ALLOWED him to do (consume her) and how she didn't want to be loved. And while her thought process feels natural - I don't like it. I wish she was having this conversation with a friend who was around during the season 6 fiasco. Someone who could tell her that she shouldn't be so hard on herself. The amount of guilt she is carrying in her is heartbreaking but also completely baffling. And at the end of this "therapy session" Buffy isn't relieved at all. Her evil therapist has just told her that this line of thinking will lead to solitude. And THIS is why psychoanalysis is crap. She resolves nothing. She has no plan of action. She should be talking to her friends about this. Even if these conversations are uncomfortable.

"From Beneath You it Devours" courtesy of Willow today.

I find this whole episode incredibly depressing. Like I need stiff drink depressing. Maybe it was necessary, I don't know.

PS Way to totally sideline Xander.

 

[Taake]

Oh I didn't know this was in controversy! The second Buffy is wearing the outfit she wears throughout the episode and then the shooting script says this:
As this happens, we slowly PAN away from them. We find the doorway to the basement. And the REAL BUFFY walks in.
So I'm pretty sure the intent was that the second Buffy is the real Buffy and to show the distinction between the two. But what I don't know is if the first Buffy was TF or if it was just a hallucination?

Yes, I'm pretty sure second Buffy is real Buffy. She was supposed to have her hair styled different, to show the distinction, but there wasn't time to change it cause Sarah was leaving for her honey moon or something according to the commentary on the episode.

I've assumed it was the First as Buffy, but good point, it could just be a hallucination.

 

[Mylie]

Conversations With Dead People

I have mixed feelings about this episode. On one hand, it really works thematically and it has an impeccable production. But a lot of it doesn't make much sense to me, and it feels a bit long/boring in some places. I do love the way the episode opens and ends and how all the mini stories end at the same time, in a shocking way.

Dawn's story : This is such a good episode for Dawn. She's funny and brave and I feel a lot for her when "ghost Joyce" tells her Buffy will be against her. I always have to keep this in mind whenever I watch Empty Places. The one thing that bugs me though is that if this is The First, how come its able to control objects ? I know The First also touched Angel in Amends, but that was season 3. They shouldn't be making this kind of error here when it's The First's season. Maybe I missed something, but this seems like a pretty big error to me.

Buffy's story : the concept is funny and I don't have to be convinced too much that this is something Buffy would do. She does seem to have more facility opening up to vampires and it was probably even easier with this one, knowing she was going to kill him right after. Which... is kind of sad? I get that this is what they are going for but I don't feel like that conversation did anything for her. So what's the point, other than the writers wanting the audience to know that Buffy is masochist (which we already knew) and that she has an inferiority complex about feeling superior? Oh, I guess she learned that Spike sired Holden. Nevermind, that was probably the point of it all.

Willow's story : that was heartbreaking. I felt so much for her.

Jonathan/Andrew : I kind of forgot about those 2 so I was surprised to see them. Jonathan's last scene was sad. He seems to be so hopeful and willing to turn his life around. It's sad that he had to die before being able to do something worthwhile.

Spike : we didn't see much so I can't really form an opinion as a whole, but I am wondering... the spike we were seeing in the bar and walking on the sidewalk with that woman felt very different, kind of shy and smiling. Was that the real Spike or Spike under the trigger? Maybe the next few episodes will answer my question but I don't remember enough about those middle episodes to tell right now.

Overall, an interesting episode. I wouldn't say I love it as much as most people do but I can see why people find it special.

My ranking :
Selfless
Same Time, Same Place
Lessons
Conversations With Dead People
Him
Help
Beneath You

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Conversations with Dead People

The song is great, and the way all the settings are sown together gives us the sense that we will get five stories that comes together under a common theme, which isn't quite what we get, but nevermind...

It is so nice to see Dawn on her own, and not being Buffy's Jimmy Crickey. MT is one of the most versatile actors on the show. The bit where she makes food and watches TV while talking on her phone is so masterfully done. The poltergeist bit is really intense. MT sells the fear. "Mother's milk is red today." Who wrote that 😛

I don't know how I feel about the bit with Cassie and Will. Having Tara there, as per the original plan, would have been overkill. Still, I don't feel the scene adds much. It is just masochist masturbation by this point. We miss Tara and we know Aly can cry. Stop, already!

Holden is a lot of fun. I've had some of my best conversations with strangers at night - stranded by my friends in bars, long train journeys, etc. For some reason, these situations make it easy to open up. There is no risk.

Jonathan's death is awful, but I don't think we should be too impressed by his death bed conversion. Jonathan has seen the light many times before. Unlike Andrew, Jonathan always had the capacity for moral reflection, he just chose not to act on it.

This episode feels like a great tease for the plot of a much better season and is somewhat ruined by the lacklustre follow-up. The trigger is the type of convoluted plot you normally find on AtS, though it gave us the great episode Lies Our Parents Tell Us. Buffy's betrayal of Dawn is never referenced again, except if that was the reason Dawn throws Buffy out of the house in Empty Places, but if so, it is really under-communicated.

 

[Grace]

Conversations With Dead People

I don't have much to add to what has already been said. I think this episode is good, but I agree that on rewatch, when the twists are no longer quite as shocking, it becomes a super depressing exercise. I actually liked the Jonathan, Andrew and The First/Warren parts the best.

I did appreciate the way the twist with Spike at the end continued the parallels with Anya that we've been seeing so far this season. Selfless showed us Buffy was willing to kill Anya if she had to. Now she may face that same decision with Spike.

I find SMG/Buffy's mood or affect in this episode very forced. When she looks somber or morose it feels forced and disingenuous and it takes me out of it. I see her acting or something? I can't put my finger on it.

Yes, SMG seemed off to me in this episode too. I almost never have problems with her acting, but it felt like everyone else was selling this episode much harder than she was. MT was especially good. The Cassie thing felt forced, but the actress was good in the role.

 

[sosa lola]

Conversation with Dead People

Willow studying in the library. I'm glad that we see some normal college stuff now. I actually sympathize with her now more than when she meets The First…. Look at the many yellow marking!! I'll kill myself before I memorize all that!

Cassie comes in and Willow has never met her, but somehow there's a connection. Let's tolerate it for the poor writers since they weren't able to bring Tara back.

The Dawn scenes are my favorite. It's like a horror movie, even though I dislike horror movies. I wonder how The First that can't touch a thing move stuff in Dawn's house.

Buffy tends to pour her heart out to vamps instead of 'people' or her friends. It's mostly talk about Buffy's relationships - remember in S4 when Xander gets zapped with electricity and no body pays attention because Buffy talking about her relationship with Riley was way more important? I wish instead of the Buffy scenes we got Xander meeting Jesse or even Buffy. The First as Buffy throwing subtle digs at Xander and reminds him of Xander's failings and betrayals and that she will never trust him again, and Xander gives a heartfelt apology for all the crap he did, but Buffy doesn't take it. That's when he realizes that she's acting strange but is oblivious to her being the First. He figures at first that she's another robot, until he touches her and his hand goes through her and then she gives that creepy laugh and disappears.

Also, an Anya scene with Helfrick would have been awesome!

The only thing I liked about Buffy's conversation with Vampire therapist was when she admitted she feels she's superior to her friends. Because she really, really believes so.

What I disliked though was Buffy saying that she had done things in S6 that her friends wouldn't understand. Huh. What did she do? Have kinky sex with Spike? Newsflash, Xanya was just as about sex when it started, there was no love there, just two people using each other for different reasons. So Xander can understand, not to mention how close she and Xander are in S7. She could have talked to him. But Buffy prefers talking to strangers instead of her friends.

What else her friends can't understand? Her treating Spike like shit? Xander treated Spike like shit. In the beginning of his relationship with Anya, he was using her for sex and company. So stop with the shit Buffy, they can understand, be honest, and say you *don't* want to talk to them because you love the headache.

Johnathan's speech about loving his high school peers even though they disliked/never noticed him made me cry.

I loved the Spike scenes: discovering he killed Holden and then his blonde date and wondering about the chip, that was interesting.

This episode is solid. It's very amazing. The song, the shifting between the scenes, the creepiness. But I didn't like Holden, and Xander isn't in it, so....

7/10

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Crap! I'm behind!! I feel like a few of us have slowed down this week as there are no reviews up for Sleeper/Never Leave Me. In an effort to allow us play catch up lets just do two additional episodes this coming week:

Week 4:
Bring on the Night
Showtime

 

[Grace]

Sleeper

This will come as a *huge* surprise, based on my earlier comments in this thread, but I really don't like the Spike trigger storyline. However, for the purposes of this rewatch, I'm setting that aside.

What I do like about Sleeper is how it engages with the familiar addiction tropes and applies them to Spike's situation, ending with his admission that he needs help. Before this, he's been doing a lot of hiding and trying to put up a brave front, and now everything is out in the open. Now he can confront things head-on, with Buffy's help.

My favorite thing about the episode was the way that Xander smiled after this exchange with Anya: "If I get vamped, I'm going to bite your ass." / "Wouldn't be the first time." I thought Xander was great in this episode, considering his own feelings.

When Buffy and Willow were talking about Willow's encounter with The First, I remembered that line from Lessons ("It's real. It's the only lesson, Dawn. It's always real.")

BUFFY: Vampire I killed last night told me Spike sired him—two nights ago.
WILLOW: Well, that's impossible, right? So maybe it was another one. A fake-out. You got one too. It wasn't a real vamp.
BUFFY: It dusted real enough.
WILLOW: Buffy, do you think Spike is—
BUFFY: I can't. (sighs) I hope not. But if I'm wrong and he is, then I have to see it for myself. I have to be there to stop it.

Buffy always has to at least consider that it's real. She has to get proof either way.

I liked how Buffy immediately shared what Webs told her with Xander, and everyone else found out as well. Webs wasn't The First. But Willow and Dawn were both hesitant about sharing exactly what they were told. The First wants to isolate people and give them doubts and already it's working.

Also, Aimee Mann is great and the songs are perfect for this episode. (I think I was first introduced to Aimee Mann with the Cruel Intentions soundtrack -- oh, how I love "You Could Make a Killing" -- so that's a nice Buffyverse connection!)

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Also, Aimee Mann is great and the songs are perfect for this episode. (I think I was first introduced to Aimee Mann with the Cruel Intentions soundtrack -- oh, how I love "You Could Make a Killing" -- so that's a nice Buffyverse connection!)

I was suuuch a big Aimee Mann fan. I went to go see her in concert in High School and again I college I think -in Austin city Limits. She was good but the girl doesn’t open her mouth at all when she sings lol.

 

[Mylie]

Sleeper

I enjoyed seeing the fallout from last week's episode. You can tell that they're all preoccupied with the things they've been told in CWDP. Willow and Dawn are struggling to decide if they should believe it or not and Buffy is trying to discover the truth. I love that she took it seriously. When you think about it, it's a ridiculous claim. Spike has the chip and he's now ensouled. For him to kill/sire people, he'd had to overcome both a physical/neurological and moral obstacle. Which isn't to say that it is impossible, but it sure is unlikely. So I appreciate Buffy questioning and seeking the truth. Also, she looked particularly beautiful in this episode. I loved her hair a lot but there was just something about her. I don't know how to explain it, but I noticed.

Xander was an highlight. I think his absence in last episode and his strong return here made me realize how much I appreciate him at his best. He was the voice of reason and I was impressed with how mature he was. He didn't jump to conclusions, he was just there to ask Buffy the right questions, etc.

Spike : I agree with @Grace that addiction parallels are interesting. I'm not sure that I understand how the trigger works. How did it start? How did The First knew how to use it? (I hope I'm just forgetting stuff and that'll be explained later on... damn I haven't seen season 7 enough lol) I don't understand the state Spike is in while he's under the trigger as well. We see him act very normal to go to a bar every night. Is he already under the trigger? Isn't not remembering anything that happened the night before a red flag? Lots of questions I hope will be answered on the show soon.

The scene in the basement : I always enjoy Buffy kicking ass but this felt a bit contrived. The people Spike sired all happened to wake up at the same time? I don't think so.

Does anyone know what the title is referencing? Is it the state Spike is in? As if he was a sleepwalker? Is it because it's as if he was sleeping since he wakes up the next day and doesn't remember anything?

Overall, it was okay. It left me with a lot of questions which I guess is good? Unless those questions are never answered. So I'd say it serves its purpose as part of an arc but as a standalone episode it's not very enjoyable.

My ranking so far :
Selfless
Same Time, Same Place
Lessons
Conversations With Dead People
Him
Help
Sleeper
Beneath You

 

[Holden Webster]

Does anyone know what the title is referencing?

Sleeper agent.

 

[Mylie]

Sleeper agent.

I just googled that term. I didn't even know that was a thing so thanks!

From Wikipedia :

A sleeper agent is a spy who is placed in a target country or organization not to undertake an immediate mission but to act as a potential asset if activated. Even if unactivated, the "sleeper agent" is still an asset and is still playing an active role in sedition, treason or espionage by virtue of agreeing to act if activated. Sleeper agents are popular plot devices in fiction, particularly in espionage fiction and science fiction. This common use in fiction is directly related to and results from repeated instances of real-life "sleeper agents" participating in spying, espionage, sedition, treason and assassinations.

 

[Holden Webster]

I just googled that term. I didn't even know that was a thing so thanks!

From Wikipedia :

A sleeper agent is a spy who is placed in a target country or organization not to undertake an immediate mission but to act as a potential asset if activated. Even if unactivated, the "sleeper agent" is still an asset and is still playing an active role in sedition, treason or espionage by virtue of agreeing to act if activated. Sleeper agents are popular plot devices in fiction, particularly in espionage fiction and science fiction. This common use in fiction is directly related to and results from repeated instances of real-life "sleeper agents" participating in spying, espionage, sedition, treason and assassinations.

Doesn't Xander say all that? Is that in a different episode?

 

[Grace]

Doesn't Xander say all that? Is that in a different episode?

I am watching Never Leave Me right now and can confirm that it is coming! 😉

 

[Mylie]

Doesn't Xander say all that? Is that in a different episode?

I am watching Never Leave Me right now and can confirm that it is coming! 😉

That's the thing with a rewatch like this, it makes me too impatient to make sense of what's in front of me. But I'm glad that some of my questions are being answered, it makes me hopeful for the rest.

A rewatch of s7 was really overdue. I realize I only remember a few episode of that season, mostly the beginning and end. The rest is all a big question mark for me. Which makes it fun, I guess!

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Sleeper

One thing I was noticing as we come into this episode is that Spike hasn't had very much speaking dialogue. I think somewhere along the way people have countered the s7 was all about Spike argument by quoting the amount of dialogue Spike had. But Spike's story has been prominent in the first have of this season, Beneath You was his main story line but we have been carrying his story along aggressively in Help, Him, and CWDP. Even when he didn't have many speaking lines he is still a significant part of the story.

"He's different. I can feel it." What does that mean exactly? Anyone have any insight? She hasn't spent much time with him. Outside of the few basement visits. What does she feel is different?

I like how Anya and Xander are talking like regular about how Spike might be killing again with Spike in his room. The guy is a vampire.. vampire hearing. You could whisper and he would hear.

Where have all of these people come from how is Sunnydale as crowded as New Orleans all of the sudden?

Is this the first time I see Buffy's chingon ponytail? We will see the chingon often this season.

Poor Dawn wants to believe so badly that what her mom told her is a lie. She is looking for clues to be able to write it off.

Why aren't we chaining Spike up right at the get go? She went and chained Angel up when she thought he was the one responsible for the guy in Beauty and the Beast's crimes. She wasn't sure either but she chained him up and figured it out after. That sounds like a better approach.

So much Spike face in this episode.

Spoiler

Spike "Will you help me."
Buffy "I guess."
(oh that wasn't the line?)

It was great seeing Giles again even if I know what is in store for him.

What happened to the high school story line and the s1 call backs? And the little Buffy family dynamic? And the joking Buffy? Willow, Dawn and Xander have nothing to add to this episode. They just mull around in the background for commentary.

This is the kind of episode I think about when I think about s7 - I'm not a fan.
 

first have of this season

should read: first half of this season