Buffy And Angel: Trust And Betrayal

[white avenger]

SPOILERS FOR SEASON 8! IF YOU'VE NOT HEARD ABOUT IT YET, THIS IS YOUR WARNING!!!


So, where does the end of Season 8 leave Buffy and Angel in Season 9? Buffy has already told Angel that she no longer trusts him, and that was before she watched him kill Giles. Noew, you can rationalize the "it was really Twilight" thing all that you want to, but the fact remains that what Buffy saw was Angel wringing Giles' neck. That's got to affect how she sees him from now on. So, how, if at all. does Angel go about restoring any degree of the trust that Buffy had in him before Twilight?

(And, please, this isn't about love. We all know that Buffy has a blind spot for Angel as far as romance is concerned. This is about TRUST, not love, lust, or physical attraction)

 

[Kean]

When it comes to trust with Buffy and Angel it is actions that speak louder than words. As far back as season 1 and the episode Angel Buffy has been saying that she doesn't trust Angel but her actions have always screamed otherwise. In that episode she laid down her weapon and bared her neck to him. An act of supreme trust for a slayer to do that in front of a vampire.

Their history is marked by similar acts and S8 is no different. She said she didn't trust him yet she sent him away to save slayers. After what he did throughout the earlier parts of the season she trusted him to help them.

In terms of going forward I don't think the issue is going to be about what Angel can do to gain Buffy's trust again. I don't think she will see Angel as breaking her trust, she will blame herself though.

I don't think Buffy and Angel will try or need to regain each other's trust. However, what they will struggle with is trusting themselves again. That may never come. The guilt they will bear, individually, will be massive. The regrets will be for their own individual actions and failures. Not the other persons.

I expect these feelings of regret, guilt and shame will keep them apart from some time.

 

[white avenger]

Buffy's act of dropping her weapon and baring her neck to Angel in Season 1 was the act of an inexperienced 15 year old girl with a high school crush and a Slayer death wish. Do you honestly believe that she would have done the same thing in Season 6 or 7 if she had just met a mysterious "vampire with a soul," the only knowledge of whom she had was the records that her Watcher had of "the vampire with the angelic face, " one of the most ruthless, sadistic vampires in history?

I do agree that their mutual feelings of pain and regret will keep them apart for some time to come, but I honestly believe that, in order to regain Buffy's trust, Angel is going to have to do more than just feel sorry and regretful about what happened, and it is going to take some really stupendous effort to even begin the process, something at least as spectacular as what Spike did when he won his soul (and, no, that is NOT a comparison of the two men, merely an estimate of what I see as the scope of what it will take for Angel to ever begin to regain Buffy's trust)

As far as trusting themselves, I would qualify that as being how they see themselves TOGETHER, because for the entire series, any tome that Buffy and Angel are "together" to any real extent, large disaster follows closely on the heels of only moderate happiness. Honestly, I very seriously doubt that, beyond the admission that Angel and Buffy are "meant to be," Joss will ever allow the two star-crossed lovers to enjoy anything beyond the briefest moment of relative happiness before the proverbial hammer falls once more. With magic expelled from the Buffyverse, which, I would assume includes the Shanshu Prophecy as well as any other method of canceling or bypassing Angel's curse, I can see nothing but tragedy and heartbreak in any future that they might hope to have together.

 

[Icarium]

Buffy's act of dropping her weapon and baring her neck to Angel in Season 1 was the act of an inexperienced 15 year old girl with a high school crush and a Slayer death wish. Do you honestly believe that she would have done the same thing in Season 6 or 7 if she had just met a mysterious "vampire with a soul," the only knowledge of whom she had was the records that her Watcher had of "the vampire with the angelic face, " one of the most ruthless, sadistic vampires in history?

Well, she did sleep with Spike and was shocked, shocked, I am telling you that the serial murderer she had given so many chances to tried to rape her...

Angel is going to have to do more than just feel sorry and regretful about what happened, and it is going to take some really stupendous effort to even begin the process

Nah, that's Joss Whedon we are talking about. Angel will just feel bad for a while and be back to his old tricks in no time, I bet.

 

[Kean]

Buffy's act of dropping her weapon and baring her neck to Angel in Season 1 was the act of an inexperienced 15 year old girl with a high school crush and a Slayer death wish. Do you honestly believe that she would have done the same thing in Season 6 or 7 if she had just met a mysterious "vampire with a soul," the only knowledge of whom she had was the records that her Watcher had of "the vampire with the angelic face, " one of the most ruthless, sadistic vampires in history?

A death wish? In season 1?

"Giles, I'm sixteen years old. I don't want to die."

First off, she was 16, not 15. Second off you do not give her enough credit. At all. Buffy shocked everyone, including Angel and Giles, with her capabilities.

"I'll be damned. She did it."

We aren't talking about Buffy's trust of vampires generally. We are talking about Buffy trusting Angel. Would she have barred her neck to any old vampire in S6 &7? No. Neither would she have done it is S1. And she didn't. She did it to someone that had helped her several times since she had come to Sunnydale.

I do agree that their mutual feelings of pain and regret will keep them apart for some time to come, but I honestly believe that, in order to regain Buffy's trust, Angel is going to have to do more than just feel sorry and regretful about what happened.

The trust that Angel will have to work for is that of the readers, not Buffy. However, that does not mean that she will be able to open her arms to him. She won't. The gravity of the betrayal felt by her friends towards Angel will be too great for that. Xander will wish him dead and Willow? Well he has led to the destruction of everything Willow is. That will not be forgotten or forgiven. I expect Buffy breaking The Seed will irrevocably drive she and Willow apart too.

The betrayal Buffy will feel will be her own. She will be distraught at what Angel has brought about, but she won't feel betrayed by it because she is responsible too.

 

[white avenger]

Well, she did sleep with Spike and was shocked, shocked, I am telling you that the serial murderer she had given so many chances to tried to rape her...

Yes, she did sleep with Spike in Season 6, but she had known him, as both enemy and ally, and all stages in between, for 3 plus years before doing so, and in the meantime he had earned her gratitude and trust to the point that he was the one who she trusted to look after Dawn after her death in Season 5. Before Season 1, Angel was totally unknown to her, and the concept of forming any sort of alliance with a vampire was before that time totally unthinkable to her.

 

[Icarium]

Angel coudl have killed Buffy while she was sleeping and he was in her room. He didn't.

Yes, she did sleep with Spike in Season 6, but she had known him, as both enemy and ally, and all stages in between, for 3 plus years before doing so, and in the meantime he had earned her gratitude and trust to the point that he was the one who she trusted to look after Dawn after her death in Season 5.

Call me crazy but trusting a guy who has tried to kill you so many times is even worse than trusting someone you don't really know. In the latter case Buffy comes off as naive but in Spike's case she comes off as wilfully blind.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

This is some serious business. I really don't see how Buffy could trust Angel ever again that easly. Maybe one day she'll find a way, but I don't think that day will come soon.

 

[white avenger]

A death wish? In season 1?

"Giles, I'm sixteen years old. I don't want to die."

First off, she was 16, not 15. Second off you do not give her enough credit. At all. Buffy shocked everyone, including Angel and Giles, with her capabilities.



We aren't talking about Buffy's trust of vampires generally. We are talking about Buffy trusting Angel. Would she have barred her neck to any old vampire in S6 &7? No. Neither would she have done it is S1. And she didn't. She did it to someone that had helped her several times since she had come to Sunnydale.

First off, sorry for the wrong age. I hit the wrong key.

As for putting that much trust in a vampire just because he had helped her, by that logic she would have done the same thing to Spike in Season 3. Regardless of his reasons, he DID help her defeat Angelus, or at least they had formed an alliance with that goal in mind.

"We aren't talking about Buffy's trust of vampires generally. We are talking about Buffy trusting Angel." Do you honestly believe that Season 6 or 7 Buffy would put that much trust in a vampire who she had known for only a few weeks or months, especially a vampire with the kind of reputation that Angel had? No experienced Slayer or demon fighter would put that much faith and trust in a vampire who they had known for such a short period of time. That, to me, constitutes a potentially suicidal act.

If Buffy had never met Angel until she was 20 years old, with the experience that those extra years had given her, he would have had to work a lot harder for a lot longer to earn the trust that 16 (not 15) year old Buffy so freely, and recklessly, gave.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Call me crazy but trusting a guy who has tried to kill you so many times is even worse than trusting someone you don't really know. In the latter case Buffy comes off as naive but in Spike's case she comes off as wilfully blind.

That may have been the case when Buffy first met Angel back in S1, but it's no longer the case anymore. After his period as Angelus in S2, his nearly draining her in the S3 finale, and the incidents of S8; Buffy might as well be willfully blind in trusting Angel again. If she had any brains, she would be wary of trusting him again.

And remember . . . he still has a cursed soul. If he has returned to "normal", there is no guarantee that Angel will never return to his soulless state again. Mind you, any of them could turn evil or do something abominable - Buffy, Xander, Dawn, and Willow, etc. Even Spike or Angel can succumb to evil, while in possession of a soul. You can't really trust anyone not to completely hurt you. But in Angel's case, it would be so easy to return to his old vampiric state thanks to the condition of his soul.

 

[Icarium]

That may have been the case when Buffy first met Angel back in S1, but it's no longer the case anymore. After his period as Angelus in S2, his nearly draining her in the S3 finale, and the incidents of S8; Buffy might as well be willfully blind in trusting Angel again. If she had any brains, she would be wary of trusting him again.

True but I was only referring to S1 anyway.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

This is a compelling argument whiteavenger and Kean have going on. I think you both make great points in the case of Buffy initially trusting Angel.

To be honest, I don't have an answer to this question.

I don't think Buffy has ever fully trusted Angel. How can she, after all that he's done? His very nature is un-trustworthy. I know you said you didn't want this to be about their love, but I just have to say that I think it's a myth that trust has to co-exist with love. Angel will be lucky if Buffy ever trusts him again, and I'm unsure if he even deserves that. This is the worst thing he's ever done. He has monumentally failed. I do not doubt his intentions, but as usual, he's been made the fool again.

How many people have to die before Buffy realizes that Angel is untrustworthy?

God, I am so sick of Bangel. Seriously.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Another problem I have with Angel is that his desire to be a hero and controlling nature has compromised his moral compass so many times, even when he has a soul. It's almost as if the soul has allowed him to mature as an individual to a limited degree.

 

[Angel6]

You say when Spike won his soul? Thats like acrediting Angel for something Angelus did? (Souled) Spike didnt fight for his soul, the vampire did, unless you are saying they are the same character I dont see your point? Angel and Angelus sure arent the same character so why should Spike and Souled Spike be seen that way?

 

[LadyLavinia]

You say when Spike won his soul? Thats like acrediting Angel for something Angelus did? (Souled) Spike didnt fight for his soul, the vampire did, unless you are saying they are the same character I dont see your point? Angel and Angelus sure arent the same character so why should Spike and Souled Spike be seen that way?

Angel and Angelus are one and the same character. The idea that they are separate beings strikes me as nothing but the fantasy of an adolescent Buffy, who could not accept the idea of both good and bad in Angel.

SPIKE fought for his soul. With or without a soul, he is a vampire. The idea of separating the souless Spike from the souled Spike strikes me as another example of adolescent illusions.


If a souless Angel (or Angelus) can go and fight for the possession of a soul, without having someone force it on him against his will, THEN I'll be impressed.

 

[Angel6]

Vampires on Buffy are defined as a demon filling the dead body of their victims and moulding themselves to that persons experiencs and memories......... so your wrong...Angel and Angelus are not the same consciousness, in fact its suggested that the entire time Angel is in control Angelus is forced to watch powerlessly

 

[Litheran]

It is stated that Angelus and Angel aren't completely seperate identities ; in Orpheus when we see Angel drink from the gunshot victim Angelus states that he's always under the surface; whispering in Angel's ear. That implies that he is part of the consciousness that is Angel. Maybe not the driving force like in Spike; but he's certainly got his feet on the dash.

 

[Angel6]

I think your over exaggerating the importance as that line. My point is Angel and Angelus are hugely different charcters, Spike and Souled Spike arent at all.....Why? Is this just piss poor continuity or is their method to it?

 

[mayfever]

Ok, now I know this is not a supposed to be a shipper debare so I'll try to leave my personal preferences out of it, but that's the thing tho, is it? Either ensouled and soulless vamps are the same character or they are not, that is up to your own interpretation, but if you decide Angel and Angelus are the same person, then Spike is fully responsible for the AR and every other terrible thing he did before he got his soul. You can't have it both ways.

Now my thoughts on this are a bit muddled, but I always saw the whole soul thing as a bit Freudian in nature - according to Freud, a personality is made up of three parts, the Id, the ego and the super-ego (very basically, the Id is responsible for basic needs and urges (kill, sex, feed), the super-ego, if you will, is the conscience that tries to act in contradiction to the Id, and the rational ego tries to reconcile the two). Now if a vampire is sired, his super-ego is sucked into orbit, the ego is stripped of one of its basic functions and is left to rationalise the Id's demands in order to "please the id's drive in realistic ways that will benefit in the long term rather than bringing grief". The Id is unconscious by definition, and the same way a human child, which according to Freud would be completely id-ridden, should not be yelled at for wanting to a) eat its own poop, b) have sex with its mother or c) lop of its dad's penis with a kitchen knife, a soulless vampire cannot be held responsible for the atrocities he commits.

Applying this to Spike and Angel then, the AR - horrible and all that it was - was Spike's Id playing up and his ego, without the super-ego, being too weak to control it, which is why the ego then told him to do the rational thing and get his soul back. Angel's Id's urges are different in nature (kill rather than f***), and he acts accordingly. He fares quite well that way, so his ego conveniently doesn't get in the way.

I'm aware that this theory has its weaknesses, but I'm actually quite proud for coming up with it 🙂

Another problem I have with Angel is that his desire to be a hero and controlling nature has compromised his moral compass so many times, even when he has a soul.

Really? Where? I don't deny that his moral compass has been comprimised a couple of times, but I don't see "his desire to be a hero" as the reason. He didn't ask to be a champion (neither did Buffy), and if he did something questionable, it was because he had the bigger picture in mind. Granted, he failed quite a bit, but his motives were almost always pure.

 

[Litheran]

I don't see any Spuffy saying that the soul makes him suddenly not responsible for the AR; I don't know where you're getting any of that.