Buffy And Angel: Trust And Betrayal

[white avenger]

I don't see any Spuffy saying that the soul makes him suddenly not responsible for the AR; I don't know where you're getting any of that.

Well, THIS Spuffy shipper has always said that if the Bangel supporters want to hold the attempted rape in Season 6 against ensouled Spike of Season 7 and beyond, they're gonna have to hold everything that Angelus did in Season 2, including the murder of Jenny Calendar, against Angel. You can't give Angel a pass for what Angelus did and condemn Spike for what "Spikeus" did.

 

[Angel6]

I am not suggesting souled spike is responsible for Buffys rape. But if your saying he isnt then he isnt responsible for fighting for his soul either. I am just trying to raise the issue of why spike and souled spike are so similar in comparison to Angel and Angelus? It seems bizzare..

---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------

Also I would like to point out Angel is my favourite character but I really like Spike as a character too, Im not trying to cause 'shipping' trouble Im just curious about why Spike and souled Spike are so similar! I will admit I really dont like Spike and Buffy together though, mainly because all she has ever done is use him, even in chosen.

 

[VisionGirl]

I am not suggesting souled spike is responsible for Buffys rape. But if your saying he isnt then he isnt responsible for fighting for his soul either. I am just trying to raise the issue of why spike and souled spike are so similar in comparison to Angel and Angelus? It seems bizzare..

---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------

Also I would like to point out Angel is my favourite character but I really like Spike as a character too, Im not trying to cause 'shipping' trouble Im just curious about why Spike and souled Spike are so similar! I will admit I really dont like Spike and Buffy together though, mainly because all she has ever done is use him, even in chosen.

Well, if we knew the answer to that we'd be (as I've been saying a lot lately) in Joss' mind (kind of like "Being John Malcovich" LOL). Anway, the fact remains that Spike and Angel were written differently in this regard. It is said in the show that most vampires retain some of their humanity, or human characteristics. Some more than others. The Judge says that Angelus is "pure"- he seems to retain little to nothing.

Why were they written so differently? I have no idea, but it's not something that bothers me very much. I accept it and move on. Vive la difference I guess!

 

[white avenger]

I am not suggesting souled spike is responsible for Buffys rape. But if your saying he isnt then he isnt responsible for fighting for his soul either. I am just trying to raise the issue of why spike and souled spike are so similar in comparison to Angel and Angelus? It seems bizzare..
.

I think that the answer to that question is supposed to be included as part of IDW's 8 issue Spike miniseries, which is the crossover arc between IDW and Dark Horse story lines.

 

[brinkster130]

I am not suggesting souled spike is responsible for Buffys rape. But if your saying he isnt then he isnt responsible for fighting for his soul either. I am just trying to raise the issue of why spike and souled spike are so similar in comparison to Angel and Angelus? It seems bizzare..

---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------

Also I would like to point out Angel is my favourite character but I really like Spike as a character too, Im not trying to cause 'shipping' trouble Im just curious about why Spike and souled Spike are so similar! I will admit I really dont like Spike and Buffy together though, mainly because all she has ever done is use him, even in chosen.

I completely agree that there is a much more noticeable difference between Angel/Angelus than Spike/Souled Spike. When I first watched BtVS and ATS I noticed it and questioned it some but I always figured it was because of the people Spike had around him when he won his soul back.

For several months before Spike got his soul back he had the chip in his head that essentially kept him from "being evil". Spike could no longer kill and fight (without physical pain) anything other than demons and was constantly around Buffy and the gang. That chip caused him to soften some and he started to care about things is a completely new way. Then he went and fought for his soul. Initially he was a wreck; talking to himself, self loathing, making himself crazy with the guilt he now felt. I think that Spike was able to deal with that pain in a few weeks because he had Buffy there to help him. Angel was alone for 100 years dealing with this ALONE, Spike had Buffy.

I don't think that Spike doesn't feel guilt or remorse over his years and years of killing and evil, I believe he does. I just think he deals with it a little different than Angel. Part of that is his personality and part of that is because he had the faith and love of Buffy to help him through it.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Why? Is this just piss poor continuity or is their method to it?

Perhaps I can clarify this for you.

Of course it's intentional. The whole point is that Spike is different than Angel - then any other vampire, actually. He is an anomaly. Somehow (it was never explained, unfortunately) some of his humanity remained after he was turned. The writers have commented on and confirmed this. It was that humanity that allowed Spike to have the capacity to purposely seek out a soul, an idea that would have never occurred to Angelus or any other vampire for that matter.

This does not make Spike "better" than Angel. It just makes him different. Personally, I'm one to argue that Spike has a stronger personality then Angel (as demonstrated by his character) but that's just personal opinion.

This is in part why Spike's personality remains steady with or without a soul. Souled!Spike is Evil!Spike with a conscience.

 

[white avenger]

Something that hasn't really been considered here is thet in comparing Season 6 Spike with Season 7 Spike, we aren't quite seeing the difference between Spike and what I like to refer to as "Spikeus," meaning, obviously, pre-soul, evil Spike. In order to actually compare the two, you have to compare Season 2 and 3 Spikeus with Season 7 Spike. When you do that, the difference between the two is more noticeable. When he was first introduced in Season 2 and later in Season 3, and even on into Season 4, we see a totally different vampire than ensouled Spike from Season 7 on. With the introduction of the soul, the snarky personality from the earlier times is pretty much gone, leaving a somewhat quieter, certainly more introspective character. Season 5 of "Angel" sees the return of that to a certain extent, but, a least to me, almost all of that is aimed toward Angel, who undoubtedly seems to bring out the worst in Spike. In dealing with Gunn and Fred, and even later with Illyria, it doesn't seem to be there,

Basically, the main differences between Angelus and Spike as he is first portrayed is that Spike retains the human traits of loyalty and the ability to love, whereas Angelus doesn't, and Angelus seems to have a more cruel, sadistic nature, with no apparent feelings of loyalty. As first seen, Spike was capable of loving (Drusilla) and of forming at least rudimentary friendship (Joyce). By Angel's own admission, without a soul, he relished torturing and degrading his victims as much if not more than killing them. Spike, on the other hand, claimed to be "all about the kill." Both vampires were monsters, predators, and killers, but each was unique from the other. Possibly, even probably, Angelus was the more monstrous of the two, but both were, definitely, monsters.

 

[Icarium]

Spike, on the other hand, claimed to be "all about the kill."

Would that be the same Spike whose very name comes from his favourite method of torture?

 

[A Flawed Fashion]

Something that hasn't really been considered here is thet in comparing Season 6 Spike with Season 7 Spike, we aren't quite seeing the difference between Spike and what I like to refer to as "Spikeus," meaning, obviously, pre-soul, evil Spike. In order to actually compare the two, you have to compare Season 2 and 3 Spikeus with Season 7 Spike. When you do that, the difference between the two is more noticeable. When he was first introduced in Season 2 and later in Season 3, and even on into Season 4, we see a totally different vampire than ensouled Spike from Season 7 on. With the introduction of the soul, the snarky personality from the earlier times is pretty much gone, leaving a somewhat quieter, certainly more introspective character. Season 5 of "Angel" sees the return of that to a certain extent, but, a least to me, almost all of that is aimed toward Angel, who undoubtedly seems to bring out the worst in Spike. In dealing with Gunn and Fred, and even later with Illyria, it doesn't seem to be there,

Basically, the main differences between Angelus and Spike as he is first portrayed is that Spike retains the human traits of loyalty and the ability to love, whereas Angelus doesn't, and Angelus seems to have a more cruel, sadistic nature, with no apparent feelings of loyalty. As first seen, Spike was capable of loving (Drusilla) and of forming at least rudimentary friendship (Joyce). By Angel's own admission, without a soul, he relished torturing and degrading his victims as much if not more than killing them. Spike, on the other hand, claimed to be "all about the kill." Both vampires were monsters, predators, and killers, but each was unique from the other. Possibly, even probably, Angelus was the more monstrous of the two, but both were, definitely, monsters.

If you look at the background of the two characters as well, you can see the difference starts there. Spike starts out a nerdy little poet and all those years as a vampire add some serious snark to him. Spike was always in love as a human. Angel was much different. You can see the ties from human spike to vampire spike and human Angel to vampire Angelus. Spike always had a love of love and he retained that as a vampire. Angel didn't really have that as a human so he didn't as a vampire. Angel and Spike both seemed to get their kicks similarly as vampires and humans, but the vampires lacked a conscious and added a new found love of death and destruction. They both murdered and killed, but with different personalities.

The souled vampires they both turn into are the results of souling the vampire versions of them so they become a hybrid of all the different experiences of their lives. Their reensoulings were so different that they both came out of that experience differently. Their personalities and their experiences after getting their souls back dictate who they are. Angel didn't really accept himself until he was back helping people with Buffy, but Spike was with Buffy right away rather than 100 years later. Angel has 100 years of tormenting himself on top of his deeds as a vampire to get over. Spike handles his remorse much differently. Neither Angel or Spike turned back into the people they were as humans but became a third "version" of themselves.

Spike and Angel are completely different from day 1 as humans, so it can be very difficult to compare them. You do get a very interesting story of what affect turning into a vampire has on personality.

 

[LadyLavinia]

It is said in the show that most vampires retain some of their humanity, or human characteristics.

When you say "retain some of their humanity", do you mean by the darker aspect of humanity, the lighter aspect of humanity, or both? Because humans ARE NOT naturally good.

 

[SlayerFae]

I am not suggesting souled spike is responsible for Buffys rape. But if your saying he isnt then he isnt responsible for fighting for his soul either. I am just trying to raise the issue of why spike and souled spike are so similar in comparison to Angel and Angelus? It seems bizzare..

---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------

Also I would like to point out Angel is my favourite character but I really like Spike as a character too, Im not trying to cause 'shipping' trouble Im just curious about why Spike and souled Spike are so similar! I will admit I really dont like Spike and Buffy together though, mainly because all she has ever done is use him, even in chosen.

I think a large part of that has to do with HOW they got their soul back, individually. Angelus' soul was forced on him, while Spike..us desired his soul back, whether for a pure reason or not. Angel's separation from Angelus has a lot to do with the struggle he had in reconciling both sides of himself: the soul and the demon, and trying to get as far away from his demon side as he possibly could.

Spike I believe had the chance to do this during season 4 when he had his chip. He still HAD that nature, but had to work around it, and so he had learned to "play nice" and ignore his more violent tendencies in order to survive. Also, as mentioned by others before, he still had the ability to love (see comments about his human self, and his soulless self being able to love and being in love with love), whereas Liam and Angelus really never loved anyone. Once Angel regained his soul, dealt with his remorse and grief over his actions pre-soul, and met Buffy, he had learned to love and care for another person, and do things for the good of humanity.

 

[soulunsung]

Well, THIS Spuffy shipper has always said that if the Bangel supporters want to hold the attempted rape in Season 6 against ensouled Spike of Season 7 and beyond, they're gonna have to hold everything that Angelus did in Season 2, including the murder of Jenny Calendar, against Angel. You can't give Angel a pass for what Angelus did and condemn Spike for what "Spikeus" did.

Sadly, I've given out too much rep, but I wanted to say that I agree with this so much and it always put me off that other's would succumb to the double standard regarding this as well.

So yay, kudos to you for this!

 

[Maggie]

Angel talks about Angelus in the first person all the time. He talks about what he did to Drusilla. He talks about his fascination with evil. He talks about how he was the worst vampire of all time. His story makes no sense if he's a different person. His relationships with the vampires continue when he has a soul, which makes no sense if he's a different person. (See all of season 2 of AtS). I think Angelus is like the alcoholic version of Angel. Angel isn't in control of what he does when he's "drunk", but it's still him.

Buffy created the fiction about them being entirely different. Angel goes along with that. But sometimes he has to stop himself -- like when he wants to tell willow that the vampiric self is a version of the human self. Other times, Buffy notices and backs away (e.g. Enemies). She has a lot of reasons for wanting to keep Angel on a pedastal and shielded from the actions he took when he was "drunk", but the cost is that she doesn't really know the guy.

I agree with SlayerFae that the reason there's less change in Spike with the soul is because Spike evolved into the sort of demon (alcoholic) who really wanted to change. Angel's the demon who got shackled into change. That's why Spike is more stable, and it fits with Joss saying that Spike is more evolved than Angel. A big part of Angel still wants to be a drunk, and so he falls off the wagon more often.

Back to the topic at hand. I don't see how Angel and Buffy could ever be together and I'd lose a lot of respect for Joss if he headed in that direction, or even wanted us to see it as tragic that we couldn't head in that direction. She's always dealt with an idealized vision of hm, and her blindness to who he is has both stunted her and caused ginormous damage to others. With the seed of wonder smashed, my hope is that the illusions are smashed too. It'd be like her waking up for a dream and realizing that while she was flying to her fantasy lots of people got killed along the way. I'm hoping it makes her feel sick to her stomach. At the same time, I think it opens up a great story for her in season 9 where she learns to come at life without all those blinders on.

For Angel, this looks like his get real moment, too. I love the panel in the preview for #40 where his expression reads to me as "Oh my god, what have I done." It'd be great to have a season 9 story about Angel where he really deals with the fact that a big part of him is an unredeemed/unredeemable demon, and that he's not some pristine hero type. It'd make his story more real. Lots of us aspire to be better than our demons will let us be. That's always been Angel's story. And the story of him really grasping that as his situation will be totally fascinating.

Could a genuinely grown up Buffy and a genuinely grown up Angel come together again? I'd think that all the bad memories and bad stuff that went down because of their juvenile love for each other would be a huge obstacle. And if they did come together, it couldn't be any resumption of the true love forever crap that's been keeping both from growing up. So I think there's some (small) room for Buffy and Angel in the future, but I think it's unlikely and it can only work if it rejects the Bangel-as-epic-destined-love picture we've had up until now.

I do recognize that a lot of folks are vested in the Bangel as true romance story. I get that. Unfortunately I don't see how Joss can make us all happy here. If he delivers your story, I lose all respect for him. If he delivers my story, it'll be hurtful to y'all. It's a pity it's a zero sum game... unless Joss finds a way to do what he's always done and that's tell us both our stories at the same time in a way that makes us think that our story is the real story he's telling!

 

[WakingNightmare]

You can call it a weakness or a strength but Buffy always forgives. She wouldn't be the Buffy I know and love if she didn't. She has a good heart, and with that combined with the weak spot she's always had for Angel... well I'm worried. Unless Angel does something to deserve Buffy's forgiveness (which I doubt will happen, beyond doing his 'tortured soul, oh please love me!' act) I really, really hope she doesn't. I love Buffy too much to see her just brush this off, like she always seems to do with Angel.

*Is worried*

 

[LadyLavinia]

You can call it a weakness or a strength but Buffy always forgives. She wouldn't be the Buffy I know and love if she didn't. She has a good heart, and with that combined with the weak spot she's always had for Angel... well I'm worried. Unless Angel does something to deserve Buffy's forgiveness (which I doubt will happen, beyond doing his 'tortured soul, oh please love me!' act) I really, really hope she doesn't. I love Buffy too much to see her just brush this off, like she always seems to do with Angel.

*Is worried*

I don't mind Buffy forgiving Angel. Eventually. But she always forgives him too easily. Come to think of it, she did the same with the Scoobies. Only Spike had to endure a lot before she was willing to forgive him. And Angel and the Scoobies managed to hurt Buffy a lot worse than Spike did.

 

[Hale Caesar]

To be honest, (i'm going to get hated for this), I like Angel more than Buffy...and at the end of the day Angel will either get forgiven (at some point) or he will just leave and do his own thing like he did in LA

At this point Joss wouldn't bring Angel back only to make him leave again, so I expect him to be very excluded from the Scoobies. Hopefully we can get Wesley or Gunn back (I haven't finished After the Fall) to balance things out, it will be boring if Season 9 only gives you the Scoobie perspective.

 

[Amyrat151]

I wonder, do people hold Faith's forgiveness of Angel against her? Angel helped Faith at a time when Buffy was ready to beat her down. Is it because Faith's support of Angel doesn't have anything to do with romantic feelings that people aren't bent out of shape about it? It's not that I don't understand Buffy's anger, but I was certainly on Angel's side in that situation. And the story was framed to be on his side, too. The continual work for redemption is where it's at in the Buffyverse, of course.
I think that people are focusing too much on shipping here. Do I think Angel should be forgiven, yes I do, but I'm probably biased because I like Angel. And knowing Joss, he and Jane, Drew, and who ever else will give Angel tons of opportunities to redeem himself. I've always loved the fact that both Buffy and Angel are these big characters that are more than capable of existing on their own. My guess is his fight won't specifically be about getting Buffy's trust back but about him coming to terms about what he did, owning up, and moving on, as it is in life when you f up.
And for the record, I'll ship Angel/Buffy till I can't find my teeth anymore. But hey, I do see that their relationship was more about two children trying find their way to adulthood, but I've always liked relationships like that. I know that if they end up together...at the way end it will be after more growth and acceptance. But I'm not sure that this is even possible. A healthy lasting relationship in the Buffyverse? What? My mind would just yell out "what this crap?"

---------- Post added at 08:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:11 PM ----------

I can't edit my last post!
Okay, LadyLavinia I'm going to have to disagree with you. Buffy does not forgive easily with her friends. Remember in Selfless when she said "Do you remember cheering me on? Both of you. Do you remember giving me Willow's message: Kick his ass." She was holding on to that for four years. She was clearly still mad at Willow for something she didn't even say. Buffy was also completely willing to kill anyone who was going to hurt Dawn, even her best friends. She was entirely unforgiving in that situation. And in the seventh season, when Giles conspired with Wood to kill Spike and she shut him out. I don't think their relationship ever recovered from that.
And also, Buffy forgave Spike. I mean, she could have never let him live the AR down, but when she realized he had his soul, she forgave him because "I saw you change." I think that it was because of her previous relationship with Angel that she was able to forgive Spike.

 

[PrettyLilGirl]

I completely agree with who ever said (sorry i cant remember after all that) the part about Buffy kind of making up in her own head that Angel and Angelus are different people. so she can allow herself to trust Angel. Im not anti Angel in any way but I really think he prefers being Angelus. Everytime he has been re-souled it has been forced upon him. Spike (smug look) changed for Buffy and if you want to talk about trust this is trust. As she laid down her weapon in S1 to Angel, she did this from S6 onwards with Spike. After smashed they both knew he could hurt her and she said she didnt trust him yet she let him handcuff her while they were...well you know lol..knowing all along that he had no soul and COULD kill her..she would NEVER let Angelus do this. So has she ever really trusted him??

 

[kndizzle]

Buffy's relationship with Angel has always defied pre-conceived notion or standard others have put upon it, herself included. This leads me to believe that although it is a horrific one, this event will only go to further shape Buffy and Angel and their relationship. The limitations on Buffy and Angel's relationship have shaped their lives on paths parallel to one another for quite sometime. This is not to say that the emotions that led to their respective paths have lessened or died away, as evidenced in season 8.

All ships aside, this is a devestating blow to their relationship, and not just as lovers but as comrades and champions. However, it is simply that - a blow. And though it may be perceived as naivety, a "blind spot", weakness, or stupidity on Buffy's part to forgive and trust him again this is not the case. Her forgiveness of others atrocities against her is not exclusive to Angel but is a character trait of Buffy herself. This is Buffy. Buffy who forgave Willow for almost putting Dawn into danger because of her magic. Buffy who forgave and even loved Spike after the bathroom incident. Buffy who forgave her friends for pulling her out of heaven. Buffy forgives because that's who she is. She is the Chosen One, and she knows what it means to make irrecovable decisions that have disasterous outcomes. She knows the power of forgiveness because she knows the power of failure.

"To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's not done because people
deserve it. It's done because they need it."

Against her better judgement, Angel has always had Buffy's trust (though she does not admit it, I agree that actions have always been Buffy's loudest and most truthful form of communication) and now is no different. I would imagine their thought process will go, as Kean said, into a state of self-hatred and disgust, something both Buffy and Angel do very well. These issues will manifest (as they always have in terms of Buffy and Angel's relationship and thus their lives) into separation, guilt. This guilt stemmed upon the feelings they have always had for each other, which have once again had as Joss so eloquently called it, "rather appauling concequences". Though, as it has been in the past, these concequences can and will be overcome.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Okay, LadyLavinia I'm going to have to disagree with you. Buffy does not forgive easily with her friends. Remember in Selfless when she said "Do you remember cheering me on? Both of you. Do you remember giving me Willow's message: Kick his ass." She was holding on to that for four years. She was clearly still mad at Willow for something she didn't even say. Buffy was also completely willing to kill anyone who was going to hurt Dawn, even her best friends. She was entirely unforgiving in that situation. And in the seventh season, when Giles conspired with Wood to kill Spike and she shut him out. I don't think their relationship ever recovered from that.
And also, Buffy forgave Spike. I mean, she could have never let him live the AR down, but when she realized he had his soul, she forgave him because "I saw you change." I think that it was because of her previous relationship with Angel that she was able to forgive Spike.

The problem I have with this is that Buffy tend to push back or deliberately ignore any resentments she had harbored toward the Scoobies. Instead, she pretended that all was easily forgiven and continued her role of "best buds" with especially Willow and Xander. With Spike, she was openly reluctant about forgiving him. Why? Why couldn't she be that openly reluctant with Willow and Xander. She quickly forgave Giles for what happened in "Helpless". It took a second betrayal on his part in "Lies My Parents Told Me" for Buffy to turn her back on him. It took Giles to betray Buffy for the second time for her to openly express any lack of forgiveness.

And don't forget . . . Spike wasn't the only one guilty of attempted rape or rape. Buffy tried to sexually assault him in "Gone". And she used him as a sex stud for half of Season 6. Spike had to learn to forgive her, as much as she had to learn to forgive him.


If Buffy and Angel want to spend the rest of their lives together (or whatever), two things need to happen. One, Angel need to earn back his soul, instead of living with one enforced upon him. And two, he need to tell Buffy about what really happened in "I Will Remember You" . . . without the benefit of a time reset. As long as Buffy remains ignorant of Angel's decision to have her memories erased of that day, I cannot endorse the idea of them "moving on".