Buffy coming back “wrong”

[garfan]

Wow. You're the first person who basically accused Buffy being out-of-character in every single season but the last. Amazing. She is simply in-character because she's doing/behaving how you would.

She hasn't been in this situation before so she wouldn't have had reason to act exactly like this before. Buffy's a former mean girl though, and has a temper. Telling people they suck, on occasion, is something she's perfectly capable of doing. We see her get angry, we see her insult people.

There's obviously much more to her than that but it means snapping at people is always a possibility

Astonishing, and you're still dodging the fact that she lectures everyone about being a burden, not just those useless young women targeted by the ultimate evil.

I suppose the Scooby Gang is so reduced at this point it doesn't even occur to me. I mean it's Willow, Xander, Anya and Dawn. And Dawn's only there since she's Buffy's sister. Willow is reduced from previous seasons and she knows it. And though Anya gets better later on, Pre-Xander season 2 Cordelia wanted to hang around the Scoobies more than season 7 Anya did.

To be honest I think all of that is simpler than fighting off monsters.
And she has help with the terrible burden of...shopping. And having some girls sleeping on the floor in other rooms because they were chased across country by assassin-priests. Oh wow, think of Buffy and not the predicament of the people targeted for violent death who don't have those pesky burdensome superpowers.

the previous season was all about how that kind of stuff was such a burden. And Buffy does have instincts and special skills for fighting the monsters

fact is, the kind of stuff the Potentials had to deal with was the similar to the kind of stuff your average Sunnydale High student had to deal with.

this was season 7 after all. People being targeted by evil was old hat. And I think the potentials reacted worse to it than anyone in the show

 

[RachM]

Buffy's a former mean girl though, and has a temper. Telling people they suck, on occasion, is something she's perfectly capable of doing.

Yes, but being a former Mean Girl is not something Buffy takes any sort of pride in or draws any kind of empowerment from like, say, Cordelia does ("I'm the nastiest girl in Sunnydale history!") In fact, it's actually the opposite case with Buffy, she doesn't like this side of herself and she feels that her Slayer identity and the way she helps people through it also helped her escape this persona, and she worries about reverting to it if she ever loses her Slayer powers, as she herself says in Helpless:

"Before I was the Slayer, I was ... well, I don't wanna say shallow, but ... let's say a certain person, who will remain nameless, we'll just call her Spordelia, looked like a classical philosopher next to me. Angel, if I'm not the Slayer, what do I do? What do I have to offer? Why would you like me?"

And while Buffy has definitely told people that they suck, she always does so to people with reason, people who are trying to hurt others. But not to a group of scared, young women who are grieving their friend, or her own friends, who have done nothing but stand by her.

We see her get angry, we see her insult people.

Of course we do, but, again, it's to people who (usually) deserve it.

There's obviously much more to her than that but it means snapping at people is always a possibility

There is a big difference between snapping at people (which every character does) and coldly and deliberately telling a room full of grieving, scared young girls that their friend was weak and an idiot and then telling everyone (who has been fighting and doing all they can) that she's been "carrying" them and that they all pretty much suck.

I suppose the Scooby Gang is so reduced at this point it doesn't even occur to me. I mean it's Willow, Xander, Anya and Dawn. And Dawn's only there since she's Buffy's sister. Willow is reduced from previous seasons and she knows it. And though Anya gets better later on, Pre-Xander season 2 Cordelia wanted to hang around the Scoobies more than season 7 Anya did.

While the Scoobies' individual arcs and characterisations are definitely reduced, their actions and the way in which they help Buffy are still very much in play.

Anya's lack of interest is addressed in-Universe and she does pull herself together by the end of the season.

Saying Dawn is "only there since she's Buffy's sister" is so incredibly reductive, as we see Dawn helping so much this season, from her constant researching, to the way she emotionally supports both Buffy and Willow, to her helping her sister set up and maintain the house for the Potentials, to her going into the Final Fight, even when Buffy tried to send her away.

Xander has opened his house up to the Potentials, offers emotional support for everyone, goes into every fight he's asked to and spends all his free time (and probably a lot of his own resources and money) fixing the Summers' house from demon damage.

And Willow puts herself in danger every time Buffy asks her to perform magic and yet she continues to do so, because it's the right thing to do.

Buffy definitely doesn't have the right to say that she's "carrying them".

the previous season was all about how that kind of stuff was such a burden.

The previous season was about how the every day tasks that your average person could handle were completely overwhelming for Buffy because she was suffering from extreme PTSD and depression and therefore normal things felt like a burden. It wasn't saying that "that kind of stuff" was a burden in general. Context matters.

fact is, the kind of stuff the Potentials had to deal with was the similar to the kind of stuff your average Sunnydale High student had to deal with.

Again, just simply untrue.

Living on the Hellmouth (which the Potentials are doing in Season 7) is risky, yes. You are at risk for random demon or monster attack. But you can also live a long life and avoid this too. It's all about luck.

The Potentials, on the other hand, are being actively hunted down by a huge malevolent evil. Their lives are directly at risk. They will literally die without Buffy's protection.

Also, are we forgetting that Buffy protected the students at Sunnydale High, showed them compassion and empathy, saved their lives without telling them that she's "carrying them" and made them feel so safe that they created a new award in order to name her Class Protector?

And even in Season 7, when she's working at the High School, she shows those students compassion and empathy. Why wouldn't she extend that to the young women in her care?

People being targeted by evil was old hat. And I think the potentials reacted worse to it than anyone in the show

The majority of the Potentials didn't know that the supernatural existed and all of a sudden they're being hunted down like animals and told that they might end up being Chosen to save the world if the woman who's protecting them died.

Now, I don't have all that much love for the Potentials, but I do at least have some empathy for their fears.

 

[thetopher]

She hasn't been in this situation before so she wouldn't have had reason to act exactly like this before.

Nah wait a sec a few posts ago you were arguing that this is totally in keeping with Buffy's attitude because of Ford and Angel and Jonathan and nyet ow you're saying this is a totally new situation? Which is it?
Buffy's death with death before, she's dealt with suicide before and she's dealt with failure before, so why is she reacting so heartlessly. I have a theory- and its not because she was 'brought back wrong- but I'd be interested as to your explanation.

Buffy's a former mean girl though, and has a temper. Telling people they suck, on occasion, is something she's perfectly capable of doing.

I don't remember Buffy being callous towards the death of innocents before, I don't think that's in character. Sure, she can be mean, but she never picked on people without cause; they had to have gotten under her skin to some degree.

Unless your saying that Buffy was so insensitive as to view Chloe's suicide as a slight against HER personally, and then we're entering the world of sociopathy.

I suppose the Scooby Gang is so reduced at this point it doesn't even occur to me. I mean it's Willow, Xander, Anya and Dawn.

What do you mean 'so reduced'? Anya is basically back to where she was since S3- no powers, Xander is a more competent fighter than ever before (as is Dawn) and Spike has a soul and is 'her strongest warrior'.
Only Willow is the one who is passive and coasting; she is also the one who says Buffy is right because of her internalized guilt she eventually gets over by 'Empty Places'.

the previous season was all about how that kind of stuff was such a burden.

Because Buffy was depressed and suffering an existential crisis.
The season before that, before her death, normal-Buffy was quite capable of running a household and delegating tasks to Dawn. She's worked a job before as well, pre-S3 so no, this is not a new and shocking turn of events.

 

[garfan]

Nah wait a sec a few posts ago you were arguing that this is totally in keeping with Buffy's attitude because of Ford and Angel and Jonathan and nyet ow you're saying this is a totally new situation? Which is it?

it's a similar event but it's a bigger explosion because it's successful and she has an immediate audience. She didn't with Angel and Jonathan and at least stepped away from the crowd

Buffy's death with death before, she's dealt with suicide before and she's dealt with failure before, so why is she reacting so heartlessly. I have a theory- and its not because she was 'brought back wrong- but I'd be interested as to your explanation.

she hasn't dealt with all three at the same time, with an audience before, after having to bury the body herself

I don't remember Buffy being callous towards the death of innocents before, I don't think that's in character. Sure, she can be mean, but she never picked on people without cause; they had to have gotten under her skin to some degree.

their 24/7 presence had gotten under her skin

What do you mean 'so reduced'? Anya is basically back to where she was since S3- no powers, Xander is a more competent fighter than ever before (as is Dawn) and Spike has a soul

I had actually mixed up the times, I thought he was still a captive at this point.

Only Willow is the one who is passive and coasting; she is also the one who says Buffy is right because of her internalized guilt she eventually gets over by 'Empty Places'.

size mostly. As in she's barely talking to anyone. The group had previously gotten up to at least six fully committed members who knew what they were doing, with a couple peripheries at times. Now it's down to two members who really know what they're doing(Willow and Xander), one who's trying but still learning and pretty far behind(Dawn), and one who's there but would really rather not be.(Anya). As RachM said Anya got better by the end of the season. This isn't the end of the season though. Like I said I forgot Spike was there and not still a captive at this point. I think I might be getting some scenes from Get it Done and Showtime mixed up slightly

Because Buffy was depressed and suffering an existential crisis.
The season before that, before her death, normal-Buffy was quite capable of running a household and delegating tasks to Dawn. She's worked a job before as well, pre-S3 so no, this is not a new and shocking turn of events.

in Anne she was only caring for herself and then only barely. And with Dawn a two person household is easier to run than a 40 person household with not all recognizing your full authority

 

[thetopher]

it's a similar event but it's a bigger explosion because it's successful and she has an immediate audience. She didn't with Angel and Jonathan and at least stepped away from the crowd

So she lashed out at people....because they happened to be around?

she hasn't dealt with all three at the same time, with an audience before, after having to bury the body herself

None of this explains her callousness. Or excuses it, and in the context of the season it does not address the cause of her behaviour. 'Came back wrong' is a better explanation than 'it happened in front of other people so of course she was going to mock the suicide victim'.

their 24/7 presence had gotten under her skin

She was at the high school for most of the day so hardly 24/7.
Plus they've been there for what, a few weeks? 3 arrived in episode 10 and Get It Done is episode 15 and this is the very first set-back since defeating the Uber-Vamp.
There had been no enemy activities since,

Buffy has had episode where she was not committed to the potentials- The Killer In Me', 'First Date' and with the this set-back she starts lashing out at everyone except herself?

Not good enough explanation for her snapping.

The group had previously gotten up to at least six fully committed members who knew what they were doing

Not in S1, 2, 3 or 4 really. And all the people she is currently with helped Buffy take down a God. I do not accept they are 'under strength' or whatever.

in Anne she was only caring for herself and then only barely. And with Dawn a two person household is easier to run than a 40 person household with not all recognizing your full authority

In Anne she was surviving just fine, not 'barely'; she had a job, a place to stay and was successfully existing under the radar so hadn't been involved in any bad stuff.
In S5 Buffy had to cope with the loss of her mom and basically now being a single parent- new territory- and she still handled it better than S7 where, until the potentials showed up, she had Xander and Dawn (who is basically an adult now, not a bratty teen) as a nice family unit.

And give me an example of the potentials, as a collective, not recognising her authority by this point? They complained but did what they were told; going to the desert, running from uber-vamp, being locked in a crypt and fighting for their lives and not calling Buffy out on it afterwards.

So I'd say that they did recognize her full authority, although they probably should've questioned her judgement more by this point.

 

[garfan]

Yes, but being a former Mean Girl is not something Buffy takes any sort of pride in or draws any kind of empowerment from like, say, Cordelia does ("I'm the nastiest girl in Sunnydale history!") In fact, it's actually the opposite case with Buffy, she doesn't like this side of herself and she feels that her Slayer identity and the way she helps people through it also helped her escape this persona, and she worries about reverting to it if she ever loses her Slayer powers, as she herself says in Helpless:

"Before I was the Slayer, I was ... well, I don't wanna say shallow, but ... let's say a certain person, who will remain nameless, we'll just call her Spordelia, looked like a classical philosopher next to me. Angel, if I'm not the Slayer, what do I do? What do I have to offer? Why would you like me?"

And while Buffy has definitely told people that they suck, she always does so to people with reason, people who are trying to hurt others. But not to a group of scared, young women who are grieving their friend, or her own friends, who have done nothing but stand by her.

Debbie in Beauty and the Beasts?

Living on the Hellmouth (which the Potentials are doing in Season 7) is risky, yes. You are at risk for random demon or monster attack. But you can also live a long life and avoid this too. It's all about luck.

The Potentials, on the other hand, are being actively hunted down by a huge malevolent evil. Their lives are directly at risk. They will literally die without Buffy's protection.

Also, are we forgetting that Buffy protected the students at Sunnydale High, showed them compassion and empathy, saved their lives without telling them that she's "carrying them" and made them feel so safe that they created a new award in order to name her Class Protector?

she also put hammerlocks on them if they screwed with her friends, and overall developed enough of a rep to stop a fight by appearing in the halls. She wasn't all gentleness

And even in Season 7, when she's working at the High School, she shows those students compassion and empathy. Why wouldn't she extend that to the young women in her care?

she did. If that one speech wasn't at least partly an outlier people wouldn't constantly bring it up/

So she lashed out at people....because they happened to be around?

....yeah? I mean does this strike you as a planned speech

 

[RachM]

Debbie in Beauty and the Beasts?

What about Debbie in Beauty and the Beasts? Are you trying to say Buffy was a Mean Girl to her? When?

If you're referring to the confrontation in the bathroom, while I do not love the victim-blaming and man-handling of Debbie (this is, however, part of a bigger issue with the way the Whedonverse treats abuse victims in general) this is, once again, an instance where Buffy is trying to stop murder and Debbie is withholding vital information which could save lives. Hardness is warranted and it is definitely not an example of Buffy being a "Mean Girl."

she also put hammerlocks on them if they screwed with her friends, and overall developed enough of a rep to stop a fight by appearing in the halls. She wasn't all gentleness

No one said she was "gentle". I said she protected the students of Sunnydale High so well they felt the need to recognise and reward her for it. And you've kind of proved my point by saying "if they screwed with her friends"; she doesn't attack without reason and she protects those who need it.

Your second example, ironically, also proves my point, as the context of the scene you've chosen (Gingerbread, I assume), is a large bully shoving a much weaker teen into a locker and threatening him and a second female teen with violence. Buffy then pops up, and she is well enough known as a protector that the bully instantly backs off.

she did. If that one speech wasn't at least partly an outlier people wouldn't constantly bring it up/

Wait, I'm confused ... you have spent literally pages arguing with us that this speech is "in-character", and now you admit it was "at least partly" and outlier, meaning it was at least part OOC ... do you even believe your own points anymore?

 

[thetopher]

....yeah? I mean does this strike you as a planned speech

Irrelevant. It was a calculated, toxic rant designed to belittle everyone else in room that Buffy never, ever rolled back on or even felt bad about it.

If it had been a loss of temper, a snap, then it would've been shorter and a bit more sympathetic and she would've apologised for it afterwards. She didn't, she absolutely meant it.

 

[garfan]

Wait, I'm confused ... you have spent literally pages arguing with us that this speech is "in-character", and now you admit it was "at least partly" and outlier, meaning it was at least part OOC ... do you even believe your own points anyanymore

People have range. She is large, she contains multitudes

The post Chloe speech is nastier than Buffy would be at her best and probably nastier than she'd want to be but it's not so far out of character to actually be out of character. It's on the extreme side of her personality

Sort of like how Xander can be massively crushing on Buffy, want to date her and still get mad enough at her to threaten to kill her if her behavior gets Willow killed

And yes I was talking about the bathroom scene with Debbie. Buffy's mean girlness is not something she chooses but a natural enough part of her personality that it comes out in certain situations. It's why she reacts like that instead of say playing interrogator like Willow does to Jonathan in Go Fish

 

[thetopher]

Buffy's mean-girl ness can, at least partly, be attributed to her immaturity, insecurity and shallowness that manifests in the early years. But it was always targeted at people who annoyed her or got under she skin, not at victims of self-deletion.
That doesn't speak to an immaturity or loss of temper but a complete lack of compassion mixed with cold anger aimed at everybody that wasn't her.

It's weird to defend it as somehow understandable or in-character. I think the point of the scene is that Buffy is totally out-of-character and the reason for that is one of the (poorly conceived/executed) themes of the season.

 

[RachM]

People have range. She is large, she contains multitudes

Yes. We have all been arguing this point while you have been desperately trying to paint Buffy as someone cold and hard. Now you want to lecture us on Buffy's layers?

The post Chloe speech is nastier than Buffy would be at her best and probably nastier than she'd want to be but it's not so far out of character to actually be out of character. It's on the extreme side of her personality

You have literally not said this once and instead thrown bad example after bad example of Buffy being mean/cruel, none of which actually supported your point, and now suddenly you want to switch it up? This is doing my head in.

And yes I was talking about the bathroom scene with Debbie. Buffy's mean girlness is not something she chooses but a natural enough part of her personality that it comes out in certain situations.

But she's not being a Mean Girl here! She is trying to get Debbie to tell her where Pete is/what he's done to himself, so that Buffy can stop him from murdering people. Your example doesn't hold up.

Maybe name other times when Buffy's so-called "Mean Girl"ness has "come up" without threat of murder or harm to prove your point?

 

[garfan]

Yes. We have all been arguing this point while you have been desperately trying to paint Buffy as someone cold and hard. Now you want to lecture us on Buffy's layers?


You have literally not said this once and instead thrown bad example after bad example of Buffy being mean/cruel, none of which actually supported your point, and now suddenly you want to switch it up? This is doing my head in.

I was not portraying someone cold and hard, I was portraying someone who was ****ing furious in these situations. A hot temper, not a cold temper

But she's not being a Mean Girl here! She is trying to get Debbie to tell her where Pete is/what he's done to himself, so that Buffy can stop him from murdering people. Your example doesn't hold up.

Maybe name other times when Buffy's so-called "Mean Girl"ness has "come up" without threat of murder or harm to prove your point?

well, she was flat out BEING a "Mean Girl" in Homecoming when you listen to some of the talk of non Cordelia rivals while talking about her plans to run for Homecoming Queen

but let's define terms considering the difficulties we're having. I think of a mean girl as a girl who used insults, social manipulation and in extreme cases violence to gain social standing.

But I'm not saying she's a mean girl currently, I'm saying she's showing mean girlness. So what does that mean? I was trying to say she was demonstrating some of the behavior of a mean girl


Yes, her behavior towards Debbie was for a good cause but I felt like the confrontation was rather like a mean girl might use to tear down a rival. She wasn't being a mean girl but was using the skill set so to say

 

[RachM]

I was not portraying someone cold and hard, I was portraying someone who was ****ing furious in these situations. A hot temper, not a cold temper

Again, not the impression you've given with all of your previous posts.

well, she was flat out BEING a "Mean Girl" in Homecoming when you listen to some of the talk of non Cordelia rivals while talking about her plans to run for Homecoming Queen

Yes. She was. That is actually a great example of Buffy's "Mean Girl" coming out, and it's very apt that it's Cordelia who brought it out. Well done, you finally offered up a concrete piece of evidence that I can agree with.

but let's define terms considering the difficulties we're having. I think of a mean girl as a girl who used insults, social manipulation and in extreme cases violence to gain social standing.

Yes. This is very much a Mean Girl. It is also, very much NOT Buffy Summers.

But I'm not saying she's a mean girl currently, I'm saying she's showing mean girlness. So what does that mean? I was trying to say she was demonstrating some of the behavior of a mean girl

I guess, but again, most of the examples you've picked are extreme situations where Buffy is trying to stop murder or harm, not Buffy using "insults, social manipulation and in extreme cases violence to gain social standing", as you yourself have described.

Yes, her behavior towards Debbie was for a good cause but I felt like the confrontation was rather like a mean girl might use to tear down a rival. She wasn't being a mean girl but was using the skill set so to say

Completely disagree, but I guess the scene is open to interpretation.

 

[garfan]

Again, not the impression you've given with all of your previous post

I really feel like it was

Yes. She was. That is actually a great example of Buffy's "Mean Girl" coming out, and it's very apt that it's Cordelia who brought it out. Well done, you finally offered up a concrete piece of evidence that I can agree with.


Yes. This is very much a Mean Girl. It is also, very much NOT Buffy Summers.

it's who she used to be, and I think it shapes her behavior when she's mad.

I guess, but again, most of the examples you've picked are extreme situations where Buffy is trying to stop murder or harm, not Buffy using "insults, social manipulation and in extreme cases violence to gain social standing", as you yourself have described.

yes, I picked extreme situations. Because they were causing extreme reactions. Go back and look at them with the idea the person describing them is talking about a person getting very angry, not being cold and hard.

 

[RachM]

I really feel like it was

Given I'm not the only one who got the opposite impression I think you might need to rethink how you phrase your arguments.

it's who she used to be, and I think it shapes her behavior when she's mad.

yes, I picked extreme situations. Because they were causing extreme reactions. Go back and look at them with the idea the person describing them is talking about a person getting very angry, not being cold and hard.

Whatever.

We are not agreeing here and we are going around in circles. I've said all I have to.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

*munches on popcorn*

Mumbles “this is an interesting one”

Thanks for all the attention on my post guys!

 

[NoShip]

That pisses me off. Kennedy is responsible for Chloe, not Buffy

Why? Buffy was at fault. Kennedy was Buffy's subordinate. Buffy should have made Kennedy stop. That is what Commanders do. They evaluate the state of their troops and adjust the stress level accordingly.

The Potentials did not sign up for any army. They were looking for protection from the Bringers who were trying to kill them. Buffy conditioned protection on fighting, which I am good with, except, they are not volunteers and conscripts require very skilled leadership which Buffy never showed. And her selection of her subordinate leaders basically sucked.

So, it actually is Buffy's fault since the Commander is responsible for everything the troops and subordinate leaders do or fail to do.

Post automatically merged: Mar 10, 2026

so you're willing to give the bad guy plans working are bad writing but you critique the good guys though?

If you look back at my posts and many others you will find the the Bad Guy's plans are routinely criticized and ridiculed and thoroughly trashed. As are the Good Guys.

Post automatically merged: Mar 10, 2026

Spike would have been slaughtered without the fighting so the violence worked to some degree. And no, not fighting was bad advice for the reasons I pointed out

Huh? The First was trying to turn Spike not kill him. When does The First express a desire to kill Spike? Spike was defenseless against the Ubervamp. Spike was dead as soon as The First ordered it.

Personally, I dont think rescuing Spike accomplished much. He just hung out in the basement or followed Buffy around. It took Angel to get Spike back in the fight (against The First).

Post automatically merged: Mar 10, 2026

So Buffy delegated and listened to advice from others cause how else would she know Kennedy could handle that. She did exactly what everyone claims she didn't do and still get trashed.

We dont know what Buffy did. Kennedy is a bossy know it all who desperately wants to be in charge. Kennedy would take on the little (bad) commander role without any directive from Buffy. Buffy is so passive aggressive at this point that she would let her.

 

[NoShip]

Pretty low bar; 'I'm paying the rent so you, all of you, try as hard as me even though I'm fawning over my vampire and dating the hot mysterious principal! Be more like me.'

And when they do, Buffy is really pissed. (No hypocracy to see here ..... ) Faith takes the brunt of Buffy's temper and we quickly move on to setting up more ..... Spike!!!

Post automatically merged: Mar 10, 2026

while it's certainly right that she take care of them, the Slayer's job is technically just to fight. I think she would have been within her rights to insist Giles find someone to deal with the non-fighting stuff

Then why do you support Buffy being The General? It is like the most non-fighting thing ever. All brain-work and PR.

Interestingly enough, Armies are never commanded by the strongest fighter. They are commanded by the smartest. Buffy is many things, but, smartest is not one of them. Willow? Giles? Wood? Even Spike. Never Buffy.

 

[NotASlayer]

Interestingly enough, Armies are never commanded by the strongest fighter. They are commanded by the smartest. Buffy is many things, but, smartest is not one of them. Willow? Giles? Wood? Even Spike. Never Buffy.

And, bizarrely, as I mentioned earlier, their most experienced and competent leader by this point is Xander! He is used to dealing with multi-million dollar jobs and handling teams of dozens of people, and was promoted for his potential leadership skills back in S5. He even has experience commanding large numbers of normals in battle, all the way back in S3.

 

[NoShip]

And how Buffy was with Andrew...I don't know if I'd call it a sign or not. After all, look at how things were with Spike during season four and early season five.

I never thought Buffy treated Tucker's Brother badly. Given what he did, he was treated rather well.