Buffy ep by ep; EMPTY PLACES-bootyshaking and heartbreaking

[saturn5]

I've thought that Buffy has been too haughty and self- absorbed during the whole run of the show. As Glory said, "so you're stronger than humans. Who isn't?" She DID think that being the slayer made her different, special, and in control.

I think it was very cruel to kick her out of her own home, though. None of those people pay the rent, do they? No. What gives them the right? They're just imposing guests. It's Buffy's house, and it seems like Buffy is getting bullied.

But still, I have to agree with the scoobies, being the slayer doesn't make her god. She wasn't by any means the most powerful person in the room, and she needed to be brought down a notch. But it was still difficult to watch.

Actually one person does have the right to chuck her out although it breaks her heart to do so. As she points out this is Dawn's house too

 

[JudyLovesBuffy]

I was totally put off by this episode. I didn't like Anya, Giles, Willow or Dawn.

---------- Post added at 07:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 AM ----------

I tried to put this in my last post, but as you can see, it didn't quite make it. LOL

This episode really broke my heart. EVERYONE always looked to Buffy to make the hard decisions. Even Giles said it upon his return to Sunnydale with the Potentials, "it's up to you, Buffy to save them" yet they second guess her decisions.

I don't think anyone can dispute that Buffy DID make those tough decisions, killing Angel, dying herself to save the world, etc. Did she make mistakes along the way?? Sure she did, but she's human and humans make mistakes, but for 6 years she made the RIGHT decisions and saved everyone's butt in the process.

Would Giles have sacrificed Jenny to save the world? Would Xander have sacrificed Anya? How about Willow sacrificing Tara? Does anyone thilnk any of them would have done it?? I don't, yet Buffy sacrificed the one person she loved above everyone else. She'd proven herself 10 times over IMHO, and she didn't deserve what was done to her in this episode.

I think a lot of what Spike said in the kitchen was true. I think Wood's attitude was caused by what Buffy said to him him about Spike. Giles because he felt Buffy was wrong about Spike and maybe he was feeling a bit useless. And please don't even get me started on Dawn LOL.

I've said this before in another thread, but will repeat it here. I think what bothered me most about Season 7 was the interaction between Giles and Buffy. I wanted more of a reconciliation between them that I did not get, quite the opposite in fact. It was just glossed over, all is forgiven, la di da!

In the end, as always, Buffy did come through, she did make the tough decisions and was the general in charge. In the end, Buffy was right, right about Caleb, right about Spike and right about her final decision.

Was Buffy superior to her friends?? Yeah, she was. JMHO

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I don't think anyone can dispute that Buffy DID make those tough decisions, killing Angel, dying herself to save the world, etc. Did she make mistakes along the way?? Sure she did, but she's human and humans make mistakes, but for 6 years she made the RIGHT decisions and saved everyone's butt in the process.

She could have let Dawn jump...

Well she could have!

For six years she made the right decisions? How about not killing Angelus, you know, immediately and getting Kendra, Jenny, and Theresa (her classmate) killed? Not that I would have wanted the season to go differently necessarily.

Would Giles have sacrificed Jenny to save the world? Would Xander have sacrificed Anya? How about Willow sacrificing Tara? Does anyone thilnk any of them would have done it?? I don't, yet Buffy sacrificed the one person she loved above everyone else.

Really? You don't think any of them would have killed even if it meant saving the world from being put into hell? Not even Giles? 😕

 

[JudyLovesBuffy]

She could have let Dawn jump...

Well she could have!

For six years she made the right decisions? How about not killing Angelus, you know, immediately and getting Kendra, Jenny, and Theresa (her classmate) killed? Not that I would have wanted the season to go differently necessarily.



Really? You don't think any of them would have killed even if it meant saving the world from being put into hell? Not even Giles? 😕

First off: Heck, YES she should have let Dawn jump LOL. OK, sorry to the Dawn fans, but didn't like her that much.

I'll give you Giles, he may have let Jenny die, but not the others and certainly NOT Willow.

You are also right about Buffy killing Angelus, but the point I was making is that she didn't kill Angelus, she killed Angel. She killed the man she loved.

 

[InsaneMystic]

I'll give you Giles, he may have let Jenny die, but not the others and certainly NOT Willow.

I don't have the least bit of doubt that Giles would have sacrificed Jenny, given the same circumstances.

Willow/Tara... I give you that this would have ended badly if it were left to Willow alone, but I see Tara pleading the sensible stance to Willow to please kill her, and in the end, seeing that Will can't do it, plunging herself onto Willow's weapon. 🙁

Xander/Anya... ok, in that case, the earth is definitely doomed. (sw)

 

[saturn5]

She couldn't have let Dawn jump, she loved her more than life itself.

There are no easy answers in this question, everyone is justified in their point of view and you honestly don't know who's right. But they all forgive each other: king :

 

[spuffyxx]

I have expressed my opinion in another thread I think on that episode.

Generally, I am very disappointed mostly by Dawn, Willow and Anya.I already disliked the potentials so, i was used to their inappropriate and rude behaviour.

Dawn,IMO, showed extreme disrespect towards her sister who has died for her, quit college for her, got a job for her and saved her from practically hundreds of people who wanted her dead when she was the Key, and after that of course.I wonder how she can talk of"loving her sister" after this behaviour.

Willow's behaviour is also unacceptable. For so long, Buffy had been a good friend, never judgemental and helped her when she got addicted. Will once became Dark Willow and wanted to destroy the world, but still everyone was trying to bring her back to her senses. How dare she, really?

And Anya...she was a vengeance demon, a human and then a demon all over again...willingly.So, she calls Buffy luckier than the others, after 7 years of slaying, two deaths and many sacrifices?

Faith had a point,she didn't kick Buffy out of the house, she even tried to apologise to her. She just had a history with her and had a different opinion about how the Potentials should be treated. Faith,btw, IS a Slayer. So that gives her the right to work with Buffy. The Potentials have absolutely NO IDEA about strategics or real battles.

Xander,is forgiven in my heart only, cause of his recent serious wound but mostly cause he gave the Potentials a speech which made Buffy(and me btw) have tears.

I don't know what to say about Giles. Things between him and Buffy were already intense from "Lies my Parents Told me"...I don't know.

I agree with all of that, I admit Buffy was not in the right but.. I don't think the Scoobies had the right to do what they did. I was surprised that Faith actually didn't piss me off that much in this episode because i have never liked Faith, right from the start. But Faith apologised and Faith didn't mean for it to happen. Probably the 2 people that annoyed me most when they kicked Buffy out was Giles and Dawn.

Dawn- I couldn't believe she told Buffy that she had to leave because "Its my house too." Sorry Dawny ! But you weren't even alive until season 5, and all you have ever done is complain now your kicking out Buffy, who died to save your life when you were the key ? Come on !

Giles- Giles really disappointed me, he was meant to be the one who was always there for Buffy, he was her watcher ! But after he moved back to England and then came back, he really started becoming more and more frustrating, all through season 7, he really became different, not like the old Giles who I loved !

And I have to say......... I hated the potentials, They were so ungrateful. They didn't understand all Buffy had done, all the sacrifices Buffy had made !

But mostly the fact that Buffy was letting them stay at her house and then they all told her she had to leave, like seriously, how disrespectful that they (including the scoobies) demanded that SHE leave her OWN house, Yes it is Dawns house too, but its not like Dawn pays for it ! At that point I was ready to throw my laptop at the ground.

But all of that is just my opinion. Im not saying anyone elses opinion is wrong. 🙂

 

[Vengeance]

Anya also really grated on me (much as I love her usually) in this episode. Saying "it just means you're luckier than us" might make sense if she had just been made the slayer but after 6+ years of hard work I think she's earned her stripes. I also think back to season 3's Helpless where Buffy was forced to fight without superpowers - and she still won, so it's not like she relies on slayer strength alone. She's the most successful slayer ever for a reason, and I thought the others were really quick to forget this. Xander was apparantly too busy moping over his lost eye, Giles too busy moping over not being the mentor anymore (I completely agree with Spike - she's surpassed him), Willow seems to be the one who is the most uncomfortable with kicking her out but I still don't get why she didn't have faith in her, when Buffy just about always had faith in Willow (remember Wrecked?), Dawn who's just I don't even know. Other people have said it but she doesn't contribute to the house's upkeep, she just mooches off Buffy, and for her to say "It's my house" is about the dumbest thing you can possibly say. I don't know how one day you can be dying in the place of someone, and then that someone just a couple years later is betraying you over nothing. I mean, why was she suddenly so against Buffy's leadership? She honestly thought Faith would make a better leader?

And on Faith, I actually do blame her slightly in this episode. It's obvious she didn't want to replace Buffy as leader but I think, given that Buffy is most definitely her superior, she would defer to her, but instead she directly challenges her leadership. She thinks she knows better, and I don't blame Buffy for pointing out that Faith isn't exactly the model slayer that all these potentials should be looking up to. Everytime I watch this episode I just have to remind myself that everything rights itself in short order, with Buffy reminding them all why she's the boss, and Faith leading them into total disaster.

 

[Stakesteak]

I disagree that Giles would have sacrificed Jenny in order to save the world, at least season 2 Giles that is. The ruthless Giles of later seasons would have run her through without much hesitation if he felt there were no other way though. I miss the kind, fatherly librarian.

In regards to Buffy getting the boot, it is quite possibly the most frustrating moment of season 7 for me (and oh there are a few). Buffy might not have been the most sympathetic to the gang's fears and she should've tried to comfort them some after the defeat at the vineyard in order to get their spirits back up, but you've got to isolate yourself a little when being a commander in a war and it's very easy to come off as uncaring when doing so.

I think the group that comes off the worst in this debacle are the potentials. They finally get in the thick of things and at their first loss Buffy suddenly becomes an unacceptable leader? Did they actually think they could defeat The First Evil without taking risks? How the heck was she supposed to know that The First had a new uber big bad waiting in the wings who probably only could have been surpassed by Glory in terms of toughness? Furthermore, how could she have found out without putting her own butt in severe danger on some ill-fated recon mission (which I'm sure they wouldn't have had any objection to)? Their swift mutiny only affirmed how cowardly the potentials were (first demonstrated with the Turok Han) whenever they were faced with real adversity.

As for the scoobies, I believe that a lot of them acted out of selfishness more than genuine belief in Buffy being a terrible leader. While selfish, I can understand Xander's faltering faith though. The man lost a frickin' eye! Wouldn't you be a little wary of the prospect of going back out there? In real wars, they ship people with those kinds of wounds home. As for Anya, Wood, and Giles, I believe that they all acted out of spite. Wood for Buffy threatening to kill him if he ever tried to touch Spike, Giles for Buffy flat out rejecting his counsel, and Anya over jealousy of Buffy getting to have super powers as the Slayer and being the hero while she was viewed as the villain for having super powers as a vengeance demon. Willow's betrayal I think was partly because of what happened to Xander and also because she didn't understand the isolation that comes with command and thought Buffy was just being condescending and unreasonable.

Dawn's betrayal I think is definitely the most surprising and heartbreaking. Buffy had given everything for her. She got had to leave college for good in order to pay the bills, took on the mantle of single parent, saved her life a few dozen times and oh yeah, sacrificed herself so that Dawn might have the chance to lead a full life. If that isn't grounds for loyalty I don't know what is. I don't think Dawn ever quite realized that if Buffy didn't love her with all her heart she would've been much better off just killing her and averting all the danger in season 5.

I believe that Spike definitely hit the nail on the head when he lashed out at them and I always wished that Buffy rubbed it in a little after saving their butts from the monstrous mess they got themselves into down in those sewers.

 

[saturn5]

I disagree that Giles would have sacrificed Jenny in order to save the world, at least season 2 Giles that is. The ruthless Giles of later seasons would have run her through without much hesitation if he felt there were no other way though. I miss the kind, fatherly librarian.

In regards to Buffy getting the boot, it is quite possibly the most frustrating moment of season 7 for me (and oh there are a few). Buffy might not have been the most sympathetic to the gang's fears and she should've tried to comfort them some after the defeat at the vineyard in order to get their spirits back up, but you've got to isolate yourself a little when being a commander in a war and it's very easy to come off as uncaring when doing so.

I think the group that comes off the worst in this debacle are the potentials. They finally get in the thick of things and at their first loss Buffy suddenly becomes an unacceptable leader? Did they actually think they could defeat The First Evil without taking risks? How the heck was she supposed to know that The First had a new uber big bad waiting in the wings who probably only could have been surpassed by Glory in terms of toughness? Furthermore, how could she have found out without putting her own butt in severe danger on some ill-fated recon mission (which I'm sure they wouldn't have had any objection to)? Their swift mutiny only affirmed how cowardly the potentials were (first demonstrated with the Turok Han) whenever they were faced with real adversity.

As for the scoobies, I believe that a lot of them acted out of selfishness more than genuine belief in Buffy being a terrible leader. While selfish, I can understand Xander's faltering faith though. The man lost a frickin' eye! Wouldn't you be a little wary of the prospect of going back out there? In real wars, they ship people with those kinds of wounds home. As for Anya, Wood, and Giles, I believe that they all acted out of spite. Wood for Buffy threatening to kill him if he ever tried to touch Spike, Giles for Buffy flat out rejecting his counsel, and Anya over jealousy of Buffy getting to have super powers as the Slayer and being the hero while she was viewed as the villain for having super powers as a vengeance demon. Willow's betrayal I think was partly because of what happened to Xander and also because she didn't understand the isolation that comes with command and thought Buffy was just being condescending and unreasonable.

Dawn's betrayal I think is definitely the most surprising and heartbreaking. Buffy had given everything for her. She got had to leave college for good in order to pay the bills, took on the mantle of single parent, saved her life a few dozen times and oh yeah, sacrificed herself so that Dawn might have the chance to lead a full life. If that isn't grounds for loyalty I don't know what is. I don't think Dawn ever quite realized that if Buffy didn't love her with all her heart she would've been much better off just killing her and averting all the danger in season 5.

I believe that Spike definitely hit the nail on the head when he lashed out at them and I always wished that Buffy rubbed it in a little after saving their butts from the monstrous mess they got themselves into down in those sewers.

I think that's unfair to all the scoobs and especially Dawn. Put yourself in the Potentials shoes, grabbed out of their normal lives and thrust into this life and death battle?
The love between Buffy and Dawn is the greatest in the show, it kills Dawn to turn Buffy away but she feels it's the right thing. Buffy herself shows no anger over it, she may have realised that they were at least partially right. And Dawn does own the Summer's house, she is Joyce's daughter, she is Buffy's sister, Summer's blood

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Buffy wanted to go into enemy territory without proper intel. Sounds familiar. I wonder if she voted Republican.

Anyway...meh.

 

[Tome]

I think that's unfair to all the scoobs and especially Dawn. Put yourself in the Potentials shoes, grabbed out of their normal lives and thrust into this life and death battle?
The love between Buffy and Dawn is the greatest in the show, it kills Dawn to turn Buffy away but she feels it's the right thing. Buffy herself shows no anger over it, she may have realised that they were at least partially right. And Dawn does own the Summer's house, she is Joyce's daughter, she is Buffy's sister, Summer's blood

It doesn't matter if Dawn is her 'sister'. She was without a doubt in the wrong here. Yes, Buffy was reckless to bring them all there. But I will NEVER see a good enough reason for them to kick Buffy out... I mean WOW, she saved each of them countless times, and if there was a time for them to show their loyalty it was there. No one showed it, until Spike had that confrontation with these backstabbers! GO SPIKE 😛

 

[dan k]

In total agreement with Zalos. The behaviour of Xander, Willow and Dawn surprised me. Although Xander lost an eye i still thought it out of character for him not to remain loyal to Buffy. Dawn abandoning the sister who fought so hard to keep her alive in season 5 well i couldn't understand it. Willow leaving her best friend out to dry and siding with people who know nothing about how to win battles, well it was stupid.

 

[saturn5]

Buffy wanted to go into enemy territory without proper intel. Sounds familiar. I wonder if she voted Republican.

Anyway...meh.

Probably, she kicked the big bad's ass and made the world a better place, just a question of whether the price was worth it.

As it is I think even Buffy would admit her idea of another frontal assault was wrong, instead she plays to her advantages and overcomes. I think there's enough blame and forgiveness to go around for all the scoobs

 

[white avenger]

With all of the differing opinions about this episode, about who was right, who was wrong, who should or should not have been supported and who should or should not have been forced to leave, one very important thing happened. (Two, if you count Spike and Buffy finally getting a little private time together. In bed, no less) The next time that a major action was taken, i e the activating of all of the Slayers, she did, at least, discuss it with them beforehand, offering them the choice of whether or not they were willing to make the life changing commitment. Also, she didn't in any way order anyone to go with her. "Tomorrow morning, I'm opening the seal. I'm going down into the hellmouth and settle this, once and for all" (I know, that's not the exact quote, but it's the gist of what she said.) What would have happened if they had all refused? I think that she and Spike would have done exactly what she said that she was going to do, and to hell with all of the others.

The point is, Buffy had already decided on the course of action, but she gave the others the option of coming along or staying behind. So, Buffy learned to be a bit less close mouthed about her plans, intentions, and strategies, and the others learned to trust her as a leader.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

white avenger agrees: Watch it there, li'l lady. John Wayne was a Republican, and he single handedly won every war that the good ol' U S of A ever fought in.

No disrespect to John Wayne was intended. I wouldn't dare do such a thing.

 

[white avenger]

No disrespect to John Wayne was intended. I wouldn't dare do such a thing.

Just funnin' with you. Nobody could EVER disrespect the Duke.

 

[saturn5]

Take it easy pilgrim!

 

[Anya2012]

I'm watching this episode right now and I hate it. I hate Dawn for kicking her sister out. I don't care if Buffy was reckless or not, Dawn had no right. And I'm really disappointed in Xander and Willow.

But go Spike for telling them all off!

 

[Misty]

I have expressed my opinion in another thread I think on that episode.

Generally, I am very disappointed mostly by Dawn, Willow and Anya.I already disliked the potentials so, i was used to their inappropriate and rude behaviour.

Dawn,IMO, showed extreme disrespect towards her sister who has died for her, quit college for her, got a job for her and saved her from practically hundreds of people who wanted her dead when she was the Key, and after that of course.I wonder how she can talk of"loving her sister" after this behaviour.

Willow's behaviour is also unacceptable. For so long, Buffy had been a good friend, never judgemental and helped her when she got addicted. Will once became Dark Willow and wanted to destroy the world, but still everyone was trying to bring her back to her senses. How dare she, really?

And Anya...she was a vengeance demon, a human and then a demon all over again...willingly.So, she calls Buffy luckier than the others, after 7 years of slaying, two deaths and many sacrifices?

Faith had a point,she didn't kick Buffy out of the house, she even tried to apologise to her. She just had a history with her and had a different opinion about how the Potentials should be treated. Faith,btw, IS a Slayer. So that gives her the right to work with Buffy. The Potentials have absolutely NO IDEA about strategics or real battles.

Xander,is forgiven in my heart only, cause of his recent serious wound but mostly cause he gave the Potentials a speech which made Buffy(and me btw) have tears.

I don't know what to say about Giles. Things between him and Buffy were already intense from "Lies my Parents Told me"...I don't know.

I agree with all of this. Yes, Buffy always made everyone fight the bringers and do everything her way and make some mistakes, but she was right and I think she was a good leader because she saved the Potentials lives in alot of situations and I agree with her on how the others and the Potentials shouldn't be partying at the Bronze in the middle of the APOCALYPSE! And I am very mad at them for kicking Buffy out of HER house just for trying her best to prevent them from getting killed by the First, and I think it very out of character for Dawn and her best friends to go along with because she has been protecting them and even risking her life for them, and even though I really like Dawn I still think it was wrong of her to kick Buffy out after Buffy died for her because you really can't defend her in this situation.


I think that's unfair to all the scoobs and especially Dawn. Put yourself in the Potentials shoes, grabbed out of their normal lives and thrust into this life and death battle?
The love between Buffy and Dawn is the greatest in the show, it kills Dawn to turn Buffy away but she feels it's the right thing. Buffy herself shows no anger over it, she may have realised that they were at least partially right. And Dawn does own the Summer's house, she is Joyce's daughter, she is Buffy's sister, Summer's blood

Um, Buffy has been in the Potentials shoes when she was grabbed out of her normal life and as I remember even from the beginning of Btvs, Buffy had it alot worst than the Potentials because she's been in death battles pretty much everyday for 7 years. Also, if I was in the Potentials shoes I would never kick my leader out in the middle of the apocalypse after she's saved me in many situations, even if she was being bossy. And yes, Dawn does own the house, but Buffy does own just as much and it still doesn't give Dawn the right to kick her out owner or not.

So I'm on Buffy's side in this episode. And Spike rocks for sticking up for Buffy!