Buffy ep by ep; EMPTY PLACES-bootyshaking and heartbreaking

[frankie]

There's always a lot of conflicting thoughts for me on this one. I don't think it was right of Buffy to bring up Faith's past and use it against her. Out of all the characters she has worked the hardest at redemption, and would have stayed in jail but she had to help Angel and then help fight the first. I think it was Buffy being over-whelmed and picking an easy target but I think Faith deserved a bit more respect. As for the others, uh, not so much. Was Buffy being reckless, yes, but sometimes that's necessary to get the job done. She was right after all, the scythe was there waiting for them, she just had to go get it by herself.
I think Dawn and Willow had the right to talk to Buffy, and speak their mind, i didn't agree with what they said but Willow helped fight the fight for long enough to at least get her say. Dawn, well, from this point on I thought she was an ungrateful little brat, but she's Buffy's sister, so again she had a right to talk.
Anya is who I had the biggest problem with. Being a slayer isn't lucky, if anything it's pretty much as unlucky as you can get. Buffy had a harder life than most because of being a slayer, but she used her power wisely and selflessly to help people. Anya got a broken heart and went on a killing spree. That's a miss-use of power. She has no right to talk down to Buffy, she is well aware what would have happened to the scoobies without Buffy, heck she wouldn't have met Xander or had friends without Buffy in her life. She would have remained a selfish killer. She's who I had the problem with.

 

[Anya2012]

I had to roll my eyes at Dawn when she said, " Then why do I feel like this?" Dawnie, you just kicked your sister out! Of course you would feel bad.

 

[saturn5]

I had to roll my eyes at Dawn when she said, " Then why do I feel like this?" Dawnie, you just kicked your sister out! Of course you would feel bad.

Because it KILLS Dawn to do this, she loves Buffy more than anything, they're the love of each other's life. That's why she smashes down Rhona the moaner when she cracks wise about it. The others are trying to comfort her but it doesn't do much good.

I would compare it to Buffy stabbing Angel at the end of Becoming pt2, Dawn does what she thinks of as the right thing even though it causes her incredible pain.

I think Buffy doesn't bare a grudge because in hindsight she realises that he once more into the breach dear friends idea maybe wasn't the best, the actual strategy she comes up with after some reflection is very different (hence her and Faith's little talk about their strategy, Buffy understands that no one is always right)

 

[Vengeance]

I guess Dawn does feel bad about what she did, but the fact is she still did it (I imagine you feel betrayed.. yes, that's one of the unfortunate side effects of betrayal) and I don't buy the comparison to Buffy killing Angel. If she didn't the world would've been sucked into hell. What would have happened if they'd followed Buffy's plan? She might've still gotten the Scythe, although probably a few more people would've died. I don't think Buffy's plan was a bad one - I think her plan of single infiltration was obviously the better plan, but there's no evidence a frontal assault wouldn't have gotten the job done. I always thought Buffy didn't hold a grudge because she loves her sister and her friends too much to ever really be mad at them.

 

[Misty]

I guess Dawn does feel bad about what she did, but the fact is she still did it (I imagine you feel betrayed.. yes, that's one of the unfortunate side effects of betrayal) and I don't buy the comparison to Buffy killing Angel. If she didn't the world would've been sucked into hell. What would have happened if they'd followed Buffy's plan? She might've still gotten the Scythe, although probably a few more people would've died. I don't think Buffy's plan was a bad one - I think her plan of single infiltration was obviously the better plan, but there's no evidence a frontal assault wouldn't have gotten the job done. I always thought Buffy didn't hold a grudge because she loves her sister and her friends too much to ever really be mad at them.

You basically read my mind. And I agree that Dawn kicking Buffy out shouldn't be compared to Buffy stabbing Angel, because Buffy really didn't have a choice in Becoming Pt 2 even if she did find that spell to restore his soul because Angelus did open the door to Hell before Willow began the spell, and if Buffy hadn't stabbed Angel then there would be consequences for the world. And I really don't see how there would be consequences if they hadn't kicked Buffy out, because as I remember half of the Potentials got killed in a bomb when Faith was in charge and when she led them into that place, even if it was an accident. Also, even if I do think it was out of character for Dawn to kick Buffy out, I will still never understand how anyone could kick their sister out of the house after she died for them because it's betrayal and there's really no excuse for doing that.

 

[saturn5]

Let's have a look;

Buffy; nearly kills everyone in Normal Again, get's Jenny, Kendra and all Angelus' other victims killed because she couldn't kill him
Giles; nearly kills everyone in The Dark Age, tries to trick Buffy into killing Spike in LMPTM
Willow; tries to kill everyone at the end of season 6, rapes Tara in OMWF
Xander; kills at least three people in OMWF, tricks Buffy into killing Angel in Becoming pt2
Dawn; nearly get's everyone killed in All the Way and get's everyone trapped in the house in OAFA
Tara; nearly get's everyone killed in Family by hiding her demon origins
Riley; goes crackers in Goodbye Iowa and leaves Xander & co to go hunting alone in Fool for Love
Oz; smashes the urn in Choices, possibly causing death of Harmony and Larry amongst others
Jenny; lies about Angel thus bringing Angelus into being
Anya; mass murdering vengence demon and turned Olaf into a baby eating troll
Andrew; tries to rape Katrina and tries to kill Buffy, kills Jonathon
CC; nearly kills everyone with her wish
Angel; Angelus
Faith; megabad
Wes; won't help poisoned Angel

There isn't a Scooby who doesn't screw up and nearly get everyone killed but forgiveness and redemption for all in the Buffyverse. Everyone has been excluded and taken back at some time of the other

 

[Tome]

Let's have a look;

Buffy; nearly kills everyone in Normal Again, get's Jenny, Kendra and all Angelus' other victims killed because she couldn't kill him
Giles; nearly kills everyone in The Dark Age, tries to trick Buffy into killing Spike in LMPTM
Willow; tries to kill everyone at the end of season 6, rapes Tara in OMWF
Xander; kills at least three people in OMWF, tricks Buffy into killing Angel in Becoming pt2
Dawn; nearly get's everyone killed in All the Way and get's everyone trapped in the house in OAFA
Tara; nearly get's everyone killed in Family by hiding her demon origins
Riley; goes crackers in Goodbye Iowa and leaves Xander & co to go hunting alone in Fool for Love
Oz; smashes the urn in Choices, possibly causing death of Harmony and Larry amongst others
Jenny; lies about Angel thus bringing Angelus into being
Anya; mass murdering vengence demon and turned Olaf into a baby eating troll
Andrew; tries to rape Katrina and tries to kill Buffy, kills Jonathon
CC; nearly kills everyone with her wish
Angel; Angelus
Faith; megabad
Wes; won't help poisoned Angel

There isn't a Scooby who doesn't screw up and nearly get everyone killed but forgiveness and redemption for all in the Buffyverse. Everyone has been excluded and taken back at some time of the other

Let's have a look at your list... because I disagree with a lot of those.

Willow: She doesn't rape Tara... how many times do I have to point out that nothing said they had sex that night, nor that Tara wouldn't have had sex later on without the spell.

Xander: He doesn't kill ANYBODY. SWEET kill the peoples.

Dawn: How does she almost get everyone killed in All The Way? That was a bunch of lame vampires, Buffy could have got rid of them alone 😉

Riley: I thought you'd have picked him letting vamps suck his blood... Those you mentionned weren't that big of a deal.

Oz: Lol, you must have searched hard for that one... Oz simply didn't do anything that was wrong(except maybe sleeping with Veruca, but that can be seen different ways). Destroying the Urn didn't KILL those peoples you named... It probably saved Willow in the first place.

CC: Too bad no one ever knew she did that ;P

Faith: Totally agree, she did a bunch of really bad stuffs.

Wesley: It's not him who didn't want to help, it was the council... it's not like HE knew how to save Angel.

 

[Icarium]

There isn't a Scooby who doesn't screw up and nearly get everyone killed but forgiveness and redemption for all in the Buffyverse. Everyone has been excluded and taken back at some time of the other

You are making a sweeping generalization. There is world of difference between killing people with a song in your heart (Anya, Faith, Willow, Spike, etc) and inadvertently doing something stupid which (almost) leads to people dying (Dawn, Cordelia, etc). Willow and Xander instantly forgiving Buffy in When She Was Bad is a great scene and totally in character while Xander hooking up with Anya and his friends only grumbling a bit, instead of saying "are you out of your mind?" is (IMO) totally out of characters and the beginning of the end of the show.

 

[dan k]

Let's have a look at your list... because I disagree with a lot of those.

Willow: She doesn't rape Tara... how many times do I have to point out that nothing said they had sex that night, nor that Tara wouldn't have had sex later on without the spell.

Xander: He doesn't kill ANYBODY. SWEET kill the peoples.

Dawn: How does she almost get everyone killed in All The Way? That was a bunch of lame vampires, Buffy could have got rid of them alone 😉

Riley: I thought you'd have picked him letting vamps suck his blood... Those you mentionned weren't that big of a deal.

Oz: Lol, you must have searched hard for that one... Oz simply didn't do anything that was wrong(except maybe sleeping with Veruca, but that can be seen different ways). Destroying the Urn didn't KILL those peoples you named... It probably saved Willow in the first place.

CC: Too bad no one ever knew she did that ;P

Faith: Totally agree, she did a bunch of really bad stuffs.

Wesley: It's not him who didn't want to help, it was the council... it's not like HE knew how to save Angel.

What Willow did could be seen as rape because she altered Tara's mind. Tara wouldn't have had sex with her so shortly after their argument if her mind hadn't been altered.

Xander is responsible for bringing about Sweet killing people. Surely you can see that

In "All the Way" Xander's friend gets badly stabbed, Dawn caused this. Not intentional but she still caused what happened, much like Xander did in "Once More With Feeling".

 

[Connor Holtz]

Actually, Buffy bringing home a sword, that carried a demon, caused that. Dawn's wish wouldn't have harmed any of them otherwise.

 

[sosa lola]

I don't think we can blame Dawn or Buffy for this. Dawn didn't know a demon will grant her wishes. Buffy didn't know someone in her house would get hurt. It's unlike Xander casting a spell without telling anyone and that spell went wrong. Xander is responsible for the deaths, Buffy and Dawn aren't.

 

[saturn5]

Let's have a look at your list... because I disagree with a lot of those.

Willow: She doesn't rape Tara... how many times do I have to point out that nothing said they had sex that night, nor that Tara wouldn't have had sex later on without the spell.

Xander: He doesn't kill ANYBODY. SWEET kill the peoples.

Dawn: How does she almost get everyone killed in All The Way? That was a bunch of lame vampires, Buffy could have got rid of them alone 😉

Riley: I thought you'd have picked him letting vamps suck his blood... Those you mentionned weren't that big of a deal.

Oz: Lol, you must have searched hard for that one... Oz simply didn't do anything that was wrong(except maybe sleeping with Veruca, but that can be seen different ways). Destroying the Urn didn't KILL those peoples you named... It probably saved Willow in the first place.

CC: Too bad no one ever knew she did that ;P

Faith: Totally agree, she did a bunch of really bad stuffs.

Wesley: It's not him who didn't want to help, it was the council... it's not like HE knew how to save Angel.

Willow and Tara definitely have sex in OMWF and Tara is still under Will's magic (which makes their song all the more ironic)

Dawn also get's Anya hurt in The Real Me

Had they destroyed the Urn it would have meant the Mayor couldn't have ascended and many lives would have been saved, Oz throws that away for Willow, it's a tough call.

And Xander summons Sweet.

My point is all the Scoobs screw up but they're all forgiven and that's what happens with Buffy and the gang in these eps

 

[dan k]

Actually, Buffy bringing home a sword, that carried a demon, caused that. Dawn's wish wouldn't have harmed any of them otherwise.

Dawn's wish keep them inside the home meaning they couldn't escape the demon.

 

[Connor Holtz]

Demons attack the Summers home all the time. Wish or no wish, that demon could have still injured him. It was the sword and the magic that released him. Sorry but Dawn didn't even know she made a wish. So how is she responsible? It's like saying Buffy is responsible for Angelus' actions in s2. She's not and neither is Dawn. Xander and Sweet is a different story.

 

[dan k]

Demons attack the Summers home all the time. Wish or no wish, that demon could have still injured him. It was the sword and the magic that released him. Sorry but Dawn didn't even know she made a wish. So how is she responsible? It's like saying Buffy is responsible for Angelus' actions in s2. She's not and neither is Dawn. Xander and Sweet is a different story.

In my post i said Dawn caused the trouble but i also said it wasn't intentional. Nevertheless she's still responsible for what happened even though it wasn't her fault. At the end of the day if Dawn doesn't wish then its very likely that Richard guy doesn't get hurt.

 

[Connor Holtz]

In my post i said Dawn caused the trouble but i also said it wasn't intentional. Nevertheless she's still responsible for what happened even though it wasn't her fault. At the end of the day if Dawn doesn't wish then its very likely that Richard guy doesn't get hurt.

I disagree. Buffy brought home the demon and it had nothing to do with Dawn's wish. But I agree with an earlier post, not Buffy's fault either. Demons attack and people get hurt big whoop. The original point was intentional harming of innocents which you agreed it wasn't anyway. Only people that fit this category are Anya, Faith, Angelus, Spike, Gunn, and Willow.

 

[sylvanscribe]

I thought this whole episode ... like most of the season ... was contrived. They deliberately set Buffy up all season to act like some moralizing dictator to build up tension for this episode when everyone revolted against her. And ... for what, really? Not too long afterwards Buffy finds the magic axe and is seemingly back in charge after Faith proves she is no better.

Blargh.

Through six seasons Buffy led the pack, relying on the guidance of Giles and the faith of her friends. And even when they strongly disagreed with her - such as Xander over Angelus - they never kicked her out. And you mean to tell me that not even one of the potentials thought: "Hey, even though I don't like Buffy, she has been a slayer for 7 years and probably has some clue about what she is talking about."

It's all bollocks!

 

[Taake]

Though I agree that this episode was contrived and that the way things turned in this ep annoys me (better writing please) I do feel that that plot twist of the Scoobies et al turning against Buffy was an important one and one that was needed... I just wish it would have been done better.

 

[NY State of Mind]

Season 7 is my worst season and this episode is another reason why....Why would Buffy have to trust Faith...Faith betrayed her plenty and lost Buffy's trust...trust is something you earn not a given..just cause Faith given Angel, Wes, etc a reason to trust her again..none has to do with Buffy....Giles was a great supporter who seems to question every move now...Willow since her season 6 issues who is scared to use magic at this point should have nothing to complain about...Dawn doesn't serve any real purpose in this war or do anything enough to claim its just as much her house as Buffys..Anya may of been right to a point but def not about "being luckier"...for someone who was an ex demon who murdered, etc. has some nerve to defy the hero as if shes made better choices in life...Buffy should of been taking down a notch but not so cruelly to be kicked out of her own home...if it was me I would of told them all to get out..what all of sudden they're entitled the equality cause they've helped Buffy her whole career...how many times shes helped them? You can't justify it with their help because it cancels itself out...

 

[Daniel Osbourne]

I wonder why no one ever commented on the fact that Anya is actually worse than Angel, Spike, Glory, etc, combined because, unlike them, she had a human soul but still mercilessly killed thousands of men. Why the heck did this murderess join the Scooby Gang off the bat and no one wanted Spike in? He HAS an excuse to kill people.

Actually, it might have to do with the fact that Xander's a hypocrite. He doesn't like vampires, so there's a huge fuss about Spike. Anya wants to have sex with him, so she gets into the gang. Stupid Xander...