Buffy ep by ep; SELFLESS-vikings and vengence

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saturn5

Scooby
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Sep 13, 2009
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SELFLESS

The Good;
Lovely to see Anya singing in her gorgeous wedding dress again. Great scenes between Anya and Halfrek, wonderful Swedish scenes and a terrific ending. Also like Buffy's busy school day.

The Bad;
?

Best line;
Villager; "Pelt him with fruits and various meats!"

Women good/men bad;
D'Hoffryn kills Halfrek to spite Anya, almost like killing one of his daughters. What the Frat boys do to the girl is horrible but doesn't warrant having your heart torn out.

Jeez!;
Frat boys with their hearts ripped out! Not the ep for you if you're arachnaphobic (we know Willow is from 'Nightmares' but she appears to keep it in check)

Kinky dinky;
Love Will's miniskirt and booties, you forget what a hot momma-yomma she can be sometimes! Buffy comments that Anya 'boned a troll' whilst Anya refers to the 'sweaty' part of a relationship.

Captain Subtext;
Xander refers to himself as 'giddy' which even Willow comments isn't a very masculine term.

Guantanamo Bay;
Buffy is prepared to kill Anya for the greater good, Xander doesn't want to. Buffy makes a good point that Spike, Angelus, The Master etc never chose to be evil, Anya chose to become a vengence demon once again and poses an ongoing threat to humanity. Also do we doubt that Xander and certainly Giles would have killed Angelus in season 2 if they could have?

Scoobies to the ER;

Missing scenes;
I would love to have seen the scene where D'Hoffryn looks at the slaughtered frat boys and says someone should phone Maxim and cancel 12 subscriptions, perhaps a comment on the Buffy/Angel girl's tendency to strip off and pose for that particular magazine seemingly at the drop of a hat (or a large cheque/free publicity for their upcoming projects?). Also interesting on the commentary is that they wanted Halfrek to appear to Anya in 'Conversations with Dead People'.

Apocalypses; 7,

Wheldon Cliches (with kind permission from Boo)

Scoobies in bondage:
Buffy: 8
Giles: 4
Cordy: 5
Will: 4
Jenny: 1
Angel: 4
Oz: 1
Faith: 3
Joyce: 1
Wes: 1
Xander; 2
Dawn; 4

Scoobies knocked out: yep, Xander
Buffy: 19
Giles: 12
Cordy: 6
Xander: 15
Will: 8
Jenny: 2
Angel: 6
Oz: 3
Faith: 1
Joyce: 3
Wes: 1
Anya;5
Dawn; 4
Tara; 1

Kills: demon spider for Buffy
Buffy: 109 vamps, 61 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot
Giles: 8 vamps, 2 demon, 1 human, 1 god.
Cordy: 3 vamps, ½ a demon
Will: 6 vamps + 3 demons +1 fawn+1 human.
Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human
Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie
Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans
Xander: 6 vamps, 2 zombies, 1½ a demon,
Anya: 1 vamp and 1½ a demon
Riley; 18 vamps + 7 demons
Spike; 8 vamps and 6 demons
Buffybot; 2 vamps
Tara; 1 demon
Dawn; 1 vamp + 1 demon

Scoobies go evil: Anya does although she's not technically a Scooby at this point
Giles: 1
Cordy: 1
Will: 3
Jenny: 1
Angel: 1
Oz: 1
Joyce: 1
Xander: 4
Anya; 1
Dawn; 1
Buffy; 1

Alternate scoobies:
Buffy: 8
Giles: 4
Cordy: 1
Will: 5
Jenny: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 2
Joyce: 2
Xander: 4
Tara; 1
Dawn;1
Spike; 1
Anya; 2

Recurring characters killed: Halfrek but she's evil so she doesn't count-12
Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara, Joyce, Katrina, Tara

Sunnydale deaths; 12 frat boys dead but alive again by the end of the ep
99

Total number of scoobies: 4,
Xander, Buffy, Dawn, Willow

Xander demon magnet: 5(6?)
Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula?

Scoobies shot:
Giles: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 4
Riley; 1
Buffy; 1
Tara; 1

Notches on Scooby bedpost:
Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny and 3xDraccy babes?
Cordy: 1?
Buffy: 4 confirmed; Angel, Parker, Riley, Spike. 1 possible, Dracula(?)
Angel: 1;Buffy
Joyce: 1;Giles, 2 possible, Ted and Dracula(?)
Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca
Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley
Xander: 2; Faith, Anya
Willow: 2;Oz and Tara
Riley; 3; Buffy, Sandy and unnamed vampwhore
Spike; 2 Buffy and Anya
Anya; 2 Spike and Xander

Dawn in peril; 12

Dawn the bashful virgin; 9

What the fanficcers thought;
Read a bizarre one once where Buffy and Xander are captured by the demon spider and Buffy get's impregnated by it (which is normally Cordy's job?). But in the follow up story they both escape after Buffy beguiles the spider with her feminine wiles and strangles it with it's own web because SHE's the Black Widow, she mates and then she kills (she certainly did with Angel!). PM me for the link.
Also a much funnier one is where Anyanka's bunny fear stems from her cursing an unfaithful man to 'Go like a bunny forever' whereupon he is turned into a killer rabbit which goes on to attack Gabrielle in the Xena ep 'In sickness and in hell' and takes on the Monty Python's Knights of the Round table before being finished off by the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!

Questions and observations;
Very little Dawn in this one (plenty of her next ep), she only has one scene but it's Anya's ep so that's ok. A wonderful tour de force showing us all how much we've learned to love and care about Anya who was introduced as a one-note character 4 years back but who is now a regular and so deserves to be! Especially love her little vengful stare when she first meets D'Hoffryn.
Buffy still doesn't know about Xander's lie in Becoming pt2, another point against Normal Again being true but you wonder will he ever really pay for what he did? Dawn's advice to Willow about fitting in is reminiscent to that given to Bart by Homer Simpson. It never occured to me until this ep but much like the end titles for season 6 having the Buffybot at the end this season actually has the First-as-Buffy.
Unfortunately the last we'll ever see of D'Hoffryn or Halfrek. Anya comments she's good with math which is weird as we heard that she was failing it in season 3 (maybe running the Magic Shop improved it?). Anya's invented surname is Jenkins, did we know that before? A vengence demon's 'soul' is referred to? The final scene is very reminiscent of the final bit 'The Harsh Light of Day'.
Marks out of 10; 10/10 first of the season

Damn, why isn't there any Anya posting icon?
 
This is my favourite episode of season 7. In fact, one of my favourite episodes in the entire series. 10/10.
 
Finaly, my favourite episode of season 7.

It was good to see Anya singing again. I love when she's singing. And I love how they showed she's not the same person anymore, she's a human now even with her demonic powers. I like her as a character very much and I'm glad Joss decided to develop her that much 😀 My favourite part of the episode is with Willow, Buffy and Xander in the house, Buffy's speech who she LOVED ANGEL MORE THEN SHE'LL LOVE ANYTHING IN THIS LIFE, and how Buffy finaly found out Willow didn't said that thing in Becoming Part II, I would like to see more of that conversation, that thing bugged me for so long and now it'showed Buffy took it pretty hard and that it stayed in her memory. Just love the last scene with Xander and Anya 🙂

10/10
 
I wished Buffy wasn't so quick to condemn Anya to death, but I understand why she was. Anya did choose to be a demon again, and she killed people who were jerks but didn't deserve such a fate. I have no doubt whatsoever that Giles or Xander would've killed Angelus if they could back in the day. And that's where all this always leads: Buffy's the one who has to do the dirty work, so the decisions are all on her head in the end. D'Hoffryn had always come off as kind of paternal before. He seemed kind of like a good guy, not forcing Willow to do anything when you expected him to, going to Anya's wedding, his general caring vibe. In this episode we get to see what he's like underneath all that. Not a good idea to piss him off apparently.
 
It's between this episode and puppet show thats hard for me to chose from as my all time favorite. However I do find the inconsistencies in Anya'a past a purposeful one. I mean she's how old and pretended to be how many people? She cant keep it together all the time.
 
I
InsaneMystic
hmm... intersting theory, didn't think of it that way!
Years ago, Buffy wanted her demon boyfriend saved and Xander wanted him killed, right now Xander wants his demon girlfriend saved and Buffy wants her killed, which side are you on?


Selfless:

The first scene is cute with Dawn teaching Willow how to fit in in college even though Willow had been in school longer than Dawn. Aww. The conversation between Buffy and Xander about Anya is well written too. Seems that Xander and Buffy are getting a lot closer. They seem to talk about their problems"¦ or Xander talking about his problems to Buffy more than he does with Willow. As for Buffy, she still cuts herself out, even when her friends reach out to her. Mark this in your notebooks, kids, the separation between the Scoobies later started from Buffy here, not the Scoobs. They all promised to start a new page and improve. Xander finally started talking about his problems with his friends. Willow now is trying to be better. Dawn is getting mature. Now Buffy, though, doesn't open up much, which is sad.

I love the Aud/Olaf scene and that language which I didn't understand. Loved the medieval set. Looks very realistic.

Willow's red outfit is cute. And I love her pony tale, wish she wears her hair like that more. It looks better on her. Willow sees Anya and is all happy"¦ *pouts* (What?) How come Wanya gets to grew closer while Spander doesn't? (Because Spuffy is more important.) But"¦ but"¦ (How will they do their 'Buffy and Spike don't need anyone but each other' theme in the later episodes if Buffy is still close with her friends and Spander happened?) That sucks! (Sigh. I know.)

Anyway, Willow notices Anya's wrist which has blood on it, and Willow is concerned. Slashy awwws everyone. Later we see Willow lose control over her dark side which I loved 'cause Willow hadn't finished 'not being evil'.

Buffy and the pencil cup. LOL. (What's up with Buffy's hair?) I know! Willow's and Anya's are perfect, but Buffy's makes her look way older.

Buffy and Xander getting the spider. Nice. Love that Buffy takes Xander with her when she needs to slay. These two had clearly grown closer. (Won't last.) I think of all the core four, Xander is the only one Buffy will still contact with in the future. (Maybe. These writers don't really care about Banders.) For the last time are you a Bander? (No!) Then why do you care so much? (It just pisses me off, the Xillows got some action, but Banders didn't get anything.) I'm glad nothing happened between Xander and Buffy. They're better off as friends.

Heh. Funny how the black line in Xander's face disappeared when he got to the Summers' house. (Xander is an immortal.) I did start a thread with this title. Xander the immortal. (You don't think"¦) *smirks* Well, my friend, guess the writers care about Bander after all.

Yikes. A Xander/Buffy fight. I'm a big fan of those. I like the writer of this episode for the mention of the lie, I also like that he didn't make such a big deal out of it. It's been years since Kick His Ass, and dwelling on it will be just lame. (I didn't really like it that much.) Why? (I always laugh when Buffy repeats the exact words "kick his ass", seems unrealistic.) It seems more like the *fans* are the ones arguing with Xander and not Buffy. (Yes! Which is why I didn't like it.) I still wish they dealt with this in S3 when it still mattered, it's a little out of place here.

Okay, I'm siding with who here? Buffy or Xander? I can see both Xander and Buffy's views"¦ but I'm siding with Buffy.

(*drops on the floor from shock*)

Whaaat? I don't always agree with Xander, I see where he's coming from, I agree with some of his points like Anya being their friend and how hypocritical of them to help Willow out and not Anya, but Anya wasn't listening to anyone. She was killing and killing and killing. Just because Xander dumped her on her wedding day, doesn't means she has to kill him and go all demony! No matter how angry and hurt she was! She had a conscience, she had humanity, she had a *choice*, and she chose to kill. Buffy was doing her job. (Yeah, 'cause Buffy is such a saint. When Spike starts killing people she gives him a chance.) It's different. (As *Buffy* says, it's always different and that means she's a hypocrite. She's the *law*, human rules don't apply, but when Xander and Dawn agreed on killing Warren she was all about 'human rules' and the slayer can't do a thing.) I never said that Buffy and Xander aren't similar (They are, aren't they?) Which makes Xander perfect for Spike. (Uh"¦ moving on?)

I loved Willow helping Anya out. Wanya 🙁 (A little bitter about Spander?) I am!

Hmmm Xander's foolish bravery and loyalty makes me love him more and more. I love how he kept pushing Buffy away from Anya but not hurting both, so cute.

Anya's song is pretty. Loved the lyrics, loved that they addressed how Anya's identity was attached with Xander all these years. Anya wanted to be somebody, and when she finds something she clings to it. Like vengeance, she kept clinging to it, giving it her heart and soul until she lost it and found a human boy as a substitute. (Xanya, a relationship built on substitution.) Absolutely. Loved Xander's as a former clingee comment, so sweet and true. He was just Anya's sex toy when the relationship started, and she was also his sex toy when the relationship started. Both used each other, they were kinda like Spuffy but were played for comedy.

I actually loved the last Xanya scene, very short and into the point. Unlike some of the fans, I don't enjoy long boring scenes with crying and too much pointless talk.

And D'Hoffryn has managed to annoy me when (he said "from beneath you it devours") I get it alright! Must they repeat it in every single episode! I wonder whose turn to mention it in the next episode.

I hated Hally's death, she died before we got to know if she were Cecily or not. A plot between Spike and Hally would have been more fun than the whole Wood/Spike bit.

This episode is my favorite season seven episode. A wonderful Anya character study. A wonderful Xander/Buffy fight. Wonderful Wanya action. Sadly Spike didn't appear in this ep"¦. (Oh he did. The First/Buffy wearing white while Real Buffy wearing black) Uh"¦ Joss going all Bernard Shaw on us with the color symbolism. Yeah I remembered this scene.

10/10
 
As I've more or less said elsewhere here, this episode for me is titled She Is Her Name. Anya, Anyanka and Aud, all three in one short sequence, well, almost:

D'HOFFRYN: Ms. Rosenberg seems to think Anyanka would be better suited...But I'm not sure if anyone's bothered to find out what Anyanka herself really wants.
XANDER: Her name is Anya.
D'HOFFRYN: Actually, funny historical sidebar, her orig --

Cut off there, since while you and I get to meet Aud and come to know her in part, not so Buffy and Xander. And so the name Aud has no meaning for them and so D'Hoffyrn is interrupted there. Which reduces the battle to Anya v. Anyanka, who is she? Xander clearly is using the name, Anya, to define her. D'Hoffyrn has already done so earlier in the episode:

D'HOFFRYN: ...I'm sorry -- how rude of me. Allow me to introduce myself. My name is D'Hoffryn.
ANYA: I am Aud.
D'HOFFRYN: Are you? Hmm. I'm afraid you don't see your true self. You are Anyanka.
***
D'HOFFRYN: ...I get the sense that your talents are not fully appreciated here, Anyanka. We'd like to help you realize your full self. We'd like you to join us.
ANYA: Why do you keep calling me that? My name is Aud.
D'HOYFRYN: Perhaps. But Anyanka is who you are.

Now recall earlier in the season, when Willow comes back. She goes to the Magic Shop and speaks with Anya. Note Anya's physical expression (tone, etc., of voice included) when she relates to Willow where everyone else is at. Spike's insane in the basement, Buffy is counselor, and Xander is doing some construction work there at the school and gets to work early. Everyone's at the school and she's lost and alone, and likely to owing to the circumstance that her connection with everyone else was through Xander. And in the meantime, she's Ms. Soft Serve, the talk of the order, and there's something about having to file a flight plan owing to her disciplinary punishment.

That's her going into the episode. Now for some early dialogue:

BUFFY: I'm not sure I get the sad vibe, but there's definitely a vengeance vibe worth worrying about.
XANDER: Oh that -- no. I don't worry about that. She was hurt and she just turned to what she knew when I... you
know... but that's not her anymore.
BUFFY: I hope you're right.
XANDER: She turned that worm guy back before any real harm was done right? It just takes a little time. Her heart's not in it...

Now go back to Ms. Soft Serve, the talk of the order, and the filing of the flight plan. Her heart isn't in it. The immediate confirmation:

INT. FRATERNITY - REC ROOM - NIGHT
We're in the rec room of a frat house, the aftermath of a slaughter...

ANYA (whispered): What have I done...

Then with later Halfrek:

HALLIE: Everyone's so proud. I can't tell you how many times today I've heard Anyanka's back to her old self again. Honey -- what is it? What's wrong?
ANYA: Oh, it's nothing. I don't...There was just so much screaming. So much blood.

Then with our hero of the episode, Willow:

ANYA: What do you want?
WILLOW: I want to help y --
ANYA: They got what they deserved!
WILLOW: No. They...
ANYA: I'm a vengeance demon. Do you understand that?
WILLOW: No.
ANYA: Try. (completely uncertain) They got what they deserved.

As I've said elsewhere, the frat boys were her trying to prove to herself that she could be Anyanka once again. And that because Anya was circling the drain:

ANYA: I'll be Mrs. I will be His Mrs. I will be...
CUT TO: Anya impaled to the wall. No longer in demon face. She looks near dead...

As related, and as just stated, she was His Mrs. and so with separation, lost and alone. And so as Xander so aptly stated, when circling the drain there, she reached for the only thing she knew, call it her lifeline. Except she found out that there was no salvation for her at the end of that rope, and good for her and for us that she failed miserably in her attempt to prove to herself that she could once again be Anyanka.

Now for some confirmation re the real her, as evidenced by her name:

D'HOFFRYN: You're a big girl, Anyanka. You understand how this works...
***
D'HOFFRYN: The way you were mine? Haven't I taught you anything, ANYA (i.e., emphasis by him on the Anya)?

And then for the rest of the season, most of which should be taken out back and set on fire, we get to see Anya integrated into the group on her own terms, as Xander walking away at the end here, well, the walking away in Hells Bells was the one bookend and here at the end is the other.

Almost forgot, but for one more on how we know that Aud is no more:

ANYA: Don't feel bad. I don't talk to people much. I mean, I talk to them, but they don't talk to me. Except to say, "Your questions are irksome" and "Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."

Note the "literal interpretations". Then consider:

D'HOFFYRN: The life and soul of a vengeance demon.

And not, the life and soul of the vengeance demon who granted the wish, so that left the door open for some other life and soul. Presumably, Aud and her literal interpretations would have understood that point, so she isn't Aud. And note that Xander gives her another shot at being the literal Aud:

XANDER: He just said you have to die!

No, he didn't. A [indefinite article meaning one of many] vengeance demon, and not, the vengeance demon who granted the wish. And her thinking, wrongly, that she must be the one:

ANYA: I understand the price. Do it.

No, you don't understand the price. Then D'Hoffryn for third time isn't the charm:

D'HOFFRYN: You're sure. This is your wish?

Her reply, which wasn't, undo what I did with my life and soul the cost:

ANYA: This is my wish. Undo what I did.

And D'Hoffryn can do that, without taking you. And this wraps back into the above, since not only no Aud but no Anyanka either:

D'HOFFRYN: Haven't I taught you anything, ANYA? Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain.

So she missed both the literal interpretation and the vengeance demon motto of never go for the kill when you can go for the pain. So she is, as D'Hoffryn emphasizes, Anya. No more Aud or Anyanka.

Now back to our hero. As the one soul rightly noted here sometime ago, back in the day the important stuff is offstage, so you creating in your mind. Here that is the deal between Willow and D'Hoffryn that isn't related onscreen. All we get is:

WILLOW: We need to talk about Anya.
D'HOFFRYN: Hmm. Very well. Let's talk about Anyanka.

All that I while offer re you creating the scene never seen is (1) presumably, no point to any deal if Anya does not survive, and (2) perhaps D'Hoffryn misreads Willow here, meaning that, well, what is D'Hoffryn's business? Vengeance? And would he otherwise help Willow out of the goodness of his heart? Where the misread occurs:

WILLOW: Get out.
HALLIE: Lemon drop, if you think I'm --
WILLOW: Get. Out.
***
WILLOW: That's not me anymore.
D'HOFFRYN: Is that right? So I didn't feel your presence earlier today? I didn't feel...a bit of the old you?
WILLOW: We need to talk about Anya.

She avoided answering with her words. What does her body say? Is the "discomfort" owing to her recalling the flaying of Warren and noting its similarity to her encounter with Halfrek, or instead because Willow never was a good liar? I ask because, to borrow from Buffy, I didn't get the vengeance vibe with Willow there at Anya's place. Instead, I got Willow trying to help her friend. Sure, not at all pleased with Halfrek, but that was the point, trying to protect her friend from Halfrek's bad influence. That anger isn't vengeance. But if D'Hoffryn wishes to think otherwise, that's okay, as Willow has a deal to make.

Might be just me, but this is how I rationalize the otherwise seeming disconnect with deal done in every sense and respect, and no need to worry in any event, since from beneath you it devours, and so all in good time, but yet soon thereafter some are sent by D'Hoffryn to kill Anya. Huh? So I rationalize it back to the offscreen deal, with D'Hoffryn misreading Willow, then following that ep and before next ep, realizing his error, and so now and not in good time, as D'Hoffryn doesn't like being played and need send the message that he isn't to be played. And if you say, then why not take out Willow, since she's the one who played him?, I say, never go for the kill when you can go for the pain instead...and that would be Anya taken out now that everyone knows that she's Anya.

Lastly re Willow, loved how the relationship went from the two being poles apart to Anya saving Willow in that cave and then Willow returning the favor in Selfless. Then end of next ep, Willow, with the warmth of a friend: Hey, Anya, you never told us what you...

Now, for Buffy here as anti-hero, summed perfectly by D'Hoffryn's "Isn't that just like a Slayer? Solving all her problems by sticking things with sharp objects" and "I think we already know what Lady Hacks-away wants." Then consider:

BUFFY: She's not the Anya you knew, Xander. She's a demon.
***
BUFFY: ...And that's why you can't see this for what it is. Willow was different. She's human. Anya's a demon.

Now note that Buffy went there alone. Xander had already left on his own. Then Buffy's on her way towards the door when:

WILLOW: I can't, I'm sorry.

We can "discredit" Xander, since by his own admission, he still loves Anya, so call him biased. But how about Willow? Again, were once poles apart...

And for contrast of Buffy as anti-hero here with Angel as hero in Five By Five and Sanctuary, what was Anya saying here, really? Recall Anya telling Xander that she's not sure there's a me to save. What's the essence of suicide? There isn't a me left to save? How is that different from this:

FAITH: I'm evil! I'm bad! I'm evil! Do you hear me? I'm bad! Angel, I'm bad! (begins sobbing, grabs Angel's shirt...) I'm bad. Do you hear me? I'm bad! I'm bad! I'm bad. Please. Angel, please, just do it." (Wes comes running out of the building, knife in hand) Angel please, just do it. Just do it. Just kill me. Just kill me.

Here, that was: Stop trying to save me Xander!...Stay out of this, Xander...Xander, you can't help me. I'm not
even sure there's a me for you to help.

Then there's Buffy's report that Anya twice chose to be a demon. True that. Except:

ANGEL: Where you gonna go? Back out into that darkness? I once told you that you didn't have to go out in that darkness, remember? That it was your choice. Well, you chose. You thought that you could just touch it. That you'd be okay. 5x5, right, Faith? But it swallowed you whole. So tell me...how'd you like it?

So Faith chose. As Willow chose. And that's where the Buffster booted the grounder for an E6. Yeah, Anya is a demon. Now. But she made the choice, both times, as a human. Just like Faith and Willow. And to use Buffy's word, what is "different" between the human Faith as rogue slayer, the human Willow as the embodiment of dark magic, and the demon Anya? What did Giles say re Faith? I can't think of anything more dangerous... And has Anyanka ever had the power to end the world?

For the cruel irony, note Buffy's words here re Angel. Yeah, you killed him. But you tried to save the vampire Angelus before that, meaning that Angel now being Angeles the vampire wasn't an excuse to write off Angel, so what makes Anya/Anyanka here any different? You killed Angel because it was too late to do anything else, at least if the world was to survive. World wasn't going to end while you searched for the answer to the Anya/Anyanka conundrum. So Buffy as anti-hero here.

Lastly, as I've otherwise mentioned elsewhere here, Selfless, along with Entropy and Helpless, is one of my go-to three.
 
I have to say I don't really agree with Buffy in this episode. I mean, I see where she's coming from but I think it's ridiculous that she is in such a hurry to kill Anya, whom she claimed to be one of her good friends. I agree with the post above...Anya made the choice twice as a human & she needed help but Buffy wasn't even willing to consider how she could help Anya without killing her. I always felt like Buffy never really connected with Anya like she did with Tara (and I think her connection with Tara was a small one) & the only reason she killed Angel was because it was too late to do anything else. How many times did Angel pose a threat? She never knew what could happen, you just never know in their world so I just don't think it's fair that she is just like 'oh, gotta kill Anya now' like she can't even consider any other way to help her. Yes, she is a demon but she still needs help. She still regretted what she'd done. I was disappointed with Buffy's behavior in this episode & that rarely happens but I think it's a big part of what happened towards the end of the season when she was shunned from the group. And notice how in this ep she says she is the law...it reminds me of a convo between her & Faith in s3 where she stated the opposite (or maybe it was another ep but I know she said it) so that shows that she has become somewhat detached but I just have to say, I really was disappointed in her in this ep.
 
Wild At Heart said:
I have to say I don't really agree with Buffy in this episode. I mean, I see where she's coming from but I think it's ridiculous that she is in such a hurry to kill Anya, whom she claimed to be one of her good friends. I agree with the post above...Anya made the choice twice as a human & she needed help but Buffy wasn't even willing to consider how she could help Anya without killing her. I always felt like Buffy never really connected with Anya like she did with Tara (and I think her connection with Tara was a small one) & the only reason she killed Angel was because it was too late to do anything else. How many times did Angel pose a threat? She never knew what could happen, you just never know in their world so I just don't think it's fair that she is just like 'oh, gotta kill Anya now' like she can't even consider any other way to help her. Yes, she is a demon but she still needs help. She still regretted what she'd done. I was disappointed with Buffy's behavior in this episode & that rarely happens but I think it's a big part of what happened towards the end of the season when she was shunned from the group. And notice how in this ep she says she is the law...it reminds me of a convo between her & Faith in s3 where she stated the opposite (or maybe it was another ep but I know she said it) so that shows that she has become somewhat detached but I just have to say, I really was disappointed in her in this ep.
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I think the truth is they'd given Anya a free ride for a long time, all the things she'd done in the past were overlooked (and unlike Angel, Darla etc she was a volunteer). But here we have a dozen slaughtered frat boys and Anya had chosen to go back to this life, she presented a clear and present danger
 
That's true ^ I don't remember them ever constantly pointing out all the things she'd done, as they did to Angel. Angel's past was constantly thrown up in his face. & he had no control over what happened, unlike Anya, who, as everyone else has said, chose to be a Vengeance Demon twice.
 
I love everything about this episode. Seriously, there's nothing I don't love. It's amazing.
and every time Aud and Olaf speak "old swedish" I laugh my ass off
 
saturn5 said:
I think the truth is they'd given Anya a free ride for a long time, all the things she'd done in the past were overlooked (and unlike Angel, Darla etc she was a volunteer). But here we have a dozen slaughtered frat boys and Anya had chosen to go back to this life, she presented a clear and present danger
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Well that is true. I can see where Buffy was coming from. Another thing that kinda made me made though is that D'Hoffrin told Anya he has plenty of girls working for him as vengeance demons...why isn't Buffy so hellbent on going after the other vengeance demons...I'm sure they were causing just as much damage as Anya did or at least close to what Anya did. It just frustrated me lol
 
Wild At Heart said:
Another thing that kinda made me made though is that D'Hoffrin told Anya he has plenty of girls working for him as vengeance demons...why isn't Buffy so hellbent on going after the other vengeance demons...I'm sure they were causing just as much damage as Anya did or at least close to what Anya did. It just frustrated me lol
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That's just the basic sillyness involved in the "one Slayer per generation" setup, though. If it doesn't happen within an hour's drive of the Sunnydale Hellmouth, what much can Buffy do about it? LOL
 
Am I the only one really bugged by Buffy's comparison of the Anya situation to Angel? If you look at it, Buffy presents a great argument against herself, if she stuck to her own rules then she wouldn't have gone after Anya at all.

Anya in Selfless is not comparable to Angel in Becoming at all. In Becoming, Buffy literally had to kill Angel, else let the world be sucked into hell. It wasn't about stopping Angelus killing more people, it was about stopping Acathla and his hoover-mouth. Anya in Selfless is much more comparable with Angel in Innocence. Do you remember what happened then, Buffy? Oh yeah, you let him go because you weren't ready to kill him. Back in S2, Buffy did the exact same thing that Xander is asking is asking her to do here, but she self-righteously does the opposite anyway. It really bugs me that her comparison is just compeltely and utterly false.

That's not even bringing up the fact that Anya still had a soul, and was willing to sacrifice herself to save 12 strangers, whereas Angelus was an unstoppable monster.

Still, great episode, 9/10.
 
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dan k
that's a really good point, i never thought about that, although i think Anya needed to be stopped like Angel did in Innocence
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soulunsung
That's a very wonderful point and I'm glad that you put on your "point-y toed shoes" and pointed us in that direction. :)
I always thought Buffy meant that you know - it sucks when the bad guy is someone you love but even so, she's gonna have to do what she has to do if they're bad.

It's a simplification of the situation from her side
- Buffy loves Angel, Angel goes bad. Xander loves Anya, Anya goes bad.

Obviously it's easier for her to jump the gun and kill Anya faster since she doesn't care the way Xander does. I think the Angel reference was just her way of pointing it out to him that it's not the first time they're in this situation only now their roles are reversed (Xander cheered her on to kill Angel, Buffy 'cheers' on Anya's need to die)
 
Only difference is Xander hated Angel, and he wanted him to die for selfish reasons. Buffy never hated Anya, and she had to do it, she had to kill the killer.
 
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soulunsung
No, she didn't have to kill Anya. That was a choice she was making, she could have found another way. There is always another way, whether people want to realize this or not.
I think it's unfair to say that. Xander did not even oppose Buffy initially, he only became pro-killing Angel after Jenny's death. And can you blame him?
 
Taake
Taake
nope certainly can't, lets face it someone needed to voice those things Xander did then.
Yes.

Giles had better reason to hate Angel, but he didn't showed his feelings, because he knew Buffy loves Angel as much as he loved Jenny. Xander hated Angel, that's a fact, and he would be happy if he died - killing Jenny was just another excuse for wanting him dead.
 
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dan k
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