Buffy ep by ep; SELFLESS-vikings and vengence

[TheVoid68]

"Giles had better reason to hate Angel, but he didn't showed his feelings"

He went straight to Angel's hideout, set it on fire and tried to beat him to death with a flaming baseball bat. What part of that is not "showing his feelings"?

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

"Giles had better reason to hate Angel, but he didn't showed his feelings"

He went straight to Angel's hideout, set it on fire and tried to beat him to death with a flaming baseball bat. What part of that is not "showing his feelings"?

That was a reaction right after her death, he wasn't thinking straight. He probably knew himself that's not going to stop Angelus. He's a watcher, he read all the horrible stuff Angel did and he knew what he's capable off. Later, when they talked about the spell, Xander's words were rough ones.

 

[Taake]

Xander hated Angel, that's a fact, and he would be happy if he died - killing Jenny was just another excuse for wanting him dead.

I honestly don't think that Xander hated Angel. I think he disliked him and was jealous of him and wanted him to go away.
But I don't think Xander was malicious enough to have been 'happy' if Angel died either.

Those things he said about Ms. Calendar and thinking Angelus should die for it well... someone had to say that, someone had to point out to Buffy that Angel was essentially going to be held responsible for what Angelus had done.

I think on some level Buffy needed to hear that to be able to do what she had to at the end.

 

[dan k]

Xander's actions when it came down to Angel were all about jealousy. Ok so him telling Buffy to "kick his ass" might have been the best thing for Buffy but that wasn't his motive. He thought hard about telling Buffy what Willow was up too but decided against it. The reason being he'd never liked Angel and he seized on Angel going bad to find a valid reason to get rid of him. His intentions therefore were not good and it wasn't just because Angel killed Jenny. He let his feelings for Buffy stop him telling her that Willow was going to try again.

 

[sosa lola]

Only difference is Xander hated Angel, and he wanted him to die for selfish reasons.

Xander's actions when it came down to Angel were all about jealousy.

I disagree with both of you.

If Xander really wanted Angel -not Angelus- to die, then he'd have cheered Kendra on when she suggested killing Angel, except he said, "Angel is our friend. Except I don't like him."

He didn't like Angel, but that didn't mean he wanted him dead. That scene shows that Xander's reasons for wanting Angelus dead were NOT about jealousy and pettiness.

He'd been quite understanding and silent ever since Angel lost his soul, it was only when Angel killed Jenny that enough was enough -Angel must die.

So, accusing Xander of being selfish and jealous about it is completely unfair.

 

[dan k]

I disagree with both of you.

If Xander really wanted Angel -not Angelus- to die, then he'd have cheered Kendra on when she suggested killing Angel, except he said, "Angel is our friend. Except I don't like him."

He didn't like Angel, but that didn't mean he wanted him dead. That scene shows that Xander's reasons for wanting Angelus dead were NOT about jealousy and pettiness.

He'd been quite understanding and silent ever since Angel lost his soul, it was only when Angel killed Jenny that enough was enough -Angel must die.

So, accusing Xander of being selfish and jealous about it is completely unfair.

Fair point but looking at season 3 it is clear Xander is very much jealous of Angel. When he sees Buffy and Angel kissing he can't get over it and storms out of a meeting at the Library.

On reflection perhaps i was going to far in saying Xander wanted to "get rid of Angel". Yet i still maintain it was his feelings for Buffy that contributed in him not letting on about what Willow was trying to do.

 

[Kana]

Oooh, it's a quandry...

Ok looking at Selfless:

I think the argument in Becoming is more analogous to the one in Selfless, because in Innocence, there was no debate. Buffy never stated Angel(us) should be saved, she simply seemed emotionally incapable at the time of killing him.

The point is when the Angel's 'cure' comes to light, it becomes apparent that this is key to his reformation. Anya's reformation is down to her choice.

While Buffy and Xander's arguments seem to switch, Buffy's arguments regarding Anya and Angel respectively are interesting:

Xander in Becoming doesn't just construct a Utilitarian argument, he says that Angel should be blamed for his actions. Buffy argues that in either cases of desoulment, Angel never meant for it to happen, (Buffy seems to have a similar view with other vampires, look at her attitude to towards Eddie in The Freshman) however in Selfless she argues that Anya made a choice twice to become a demon, so therefore she shouldn't get a choice in her own reformation.

But as we've seen from Faith, the desire for reformation is relevent to decision to kill or save. Neither case is simple. While Buffy did send Angel to hell in the end, she also wish for his rehabilitation in the form of re ensoulment, just as Xander hopes for Anya's reformation through choice.

Buffy saying how she felt about killing Angel is relevant but not for shipping reasons. We see the pain in her eyes as it was one of the hardest decisions of her life. This proves that while she is acting like the detached general, she still is the emotional and connected Slayer she always was. In the same way sacrificing the man she loves went against her natural instinct to care the those she loves, her attitude in Season 7 was causing her to lose the strength she had as a Slayer and that was the connection she had with those around her. All of these subtle moments led to Empty Places...

 

[sosa lola]

Fair point but looking at season 3 it is clear Xander is very much jealous of Angel. When he sees Buffy and Angel kissing he can't get over it and storms out of a meeting at the Library.

I don't think it's about Buffy and Angel kissing as much as it's about Buffy betraying them. Buffy was out of line when she accused him of jealousy and spying on her, did she forget all the horrible things Angel did last year? If she could, the others can't. Angel tried to kill Buffy's friends to hurt her. Willow in Innocence, Xander in Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered, and Giles in Becoming. She can't expect them to be understanding and welcoming when they discovered she was hiding the "murderer" for a while now, to the point where she's so comfortable with his presence to kiss him.

Xander was angry at Buffy for hiding Angel and then being stupid enough to kiss him and give him another happy. It wasn't about jealousy, it was about betrayal, and at that moment he felt betrayed.

Buffy: (hesitatingly) Are we cool?

Xander: Yeah! Just seeing the two of you kissing after everything that happened, I leaned toward the postal. (pauses) But I trust you.

If it was about jealousy, Xander would have objected to Buffy's relationship with Scott, but he didn't. During S3, he was more into Cordelia and Willow; the only moment he appeared to want Buffy was when she read his thoughts about "sex with Buffy".

 

[dan k]

I don't think it's about Buffy and Angel kissing as much as it's about Buffy betraying them. Buffy was out of line when she accused him of jealousy and spying on her, did she forget all the horrible things Angel did last year? If she could, the others can't. Angel tried to kill Buffy's friends to hurt her. Willow in Innocence, Xander in Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered, and Giles in Becoming. She can't expect them to be understanding and welcoming when they discovered she was hiding the "murderer" for a while now, to the point where she's so comfortable with his presence to kiss him.

Xander was angry at Buffy for hiding Angel and then being stupid enough to kiss him and give him another happy. It wasn't about jealousy, it was about betrayal, and at that moment he felt betrayed.

Buffy: (hesitatingly) Are we cool?

Xander: Yeah! Just seeing the two of you kissing after everything that happened, I leaned toward the postal. (pauses) But I trust you.

If it was about jealousy, Xander would have objected to Buffy's relationship with Scott, but he didn't. During S3, he was more into Cordelia and Willow; the only moment he appeared to want Buffy was when she read his thoughts about "sex with Buffy".

I think Xander accepted Scott's relationship with Buffy because he could at least understand it and deal with it. In regard to Angel Xander struggled to understand and deal with it because of his issues with vampires, i'll bring Spike into this equation aswell.

Xander was jealous about Angel's involvement with Buffy when he saw them together, he couldn't hide that fact. Sure he felt betrayed but there was also jealousy too.

Buffy questions him about his jealousy in that scene in the Library and he isn't for me convincing in showing that at least some of his displeasure was down to her being close with Angel again.

I'am not saying Xander wasn't entitled to feel this way. Xander did feel betrayed like you suggested but in the case of Angel being with Buffy jealousy was a big factor. He could handle Buffy being with a regular guy more easily then when she was with a vampire.

 

[sosa lola]

I think Xander accepted Scott's relationship with Buffy because he could at least understand it and deal with it. In regard to Angel Xander struggled to understand and deal with it because of his issues with vampires, i'll bring Spike into this equation aswell.

I can agree with that to an extent. Xander's reasons for disliking Angel in S2 before Angelus was about jealousy, but he'd learned to accept it reluctantly. After Angelus, it's more than that: Angel tried to kill them, hurt them, tortured them. Xander hated him for what he had done to them, and it was why he hated Buffy for hiding his return from them and betraying their trust.

Xander having no issues with Scott clearly shows that jealousy isn't a factor. Because during S1 and S2, Xander had been jealous of every guy Buffy was interested in including Angel. Now, he's aware he'd got no chance with Buffy, and he moved past the idea of being her boyfriend, so I don't see why he would be jealous of Angel. He's angry at him, and dislikes him a great deal, and is upset that the slate is wiped clean and that Angel is all forgiven now.

 

[GrrArghx]

I gotta agree with sosa lola. Xander has shown to be jealous before in the past, yeah, but in this instance, I think he just felt betrayed.

But, Xander "redeemed" himself to me in Amends when he offered to help Angel. That's easily one of the sweetest things he's ever done in the show, IMO. Especially after how many times he had made his feelings about Angel very clear.

As far as Selfless goes, I'm sort of glad Xander was put in Buffy's position, if not only to finally understood how she felt back then. They're both right in saying that the situation was different, but when it came right down to it: Even though Xander loved Anya (just as Buffy loved Angel), she needed to be taken care of.

 

[TheVoid68]

As far as Selfless goes, I'm sort of glad Xander was put in Buffy's position, if not only to finally understood how she felt back then.

I agree, I did like that. What I didn't like was Buffy not learning from having previously been in Xander's position. Either she changed a lot from S2, or she just thinks that the people she loves are worth more than the people Xander loves.

Even though Xander loved Anya (just as Buffy loved Angel), she needed to be taken care of.

Except, as we know, she didn't. She voluntarily sacrificed herself to undo the damage she had caused. If Buffy had killed Anya as intended, then the frat boys would've stayed dead. In retrospect, it's clear that killing Anya would have been the wrong decsision if it had been successful.

 

[sosa lola]

What I didn't like was Buffy not learning from having previously been in Xander's position. Either she changed a lot from S2, or she just thinks that the people she loves are worth more than the people Xander loves.

I think Buffy gave Anya plenty of chances before she decided to kill her. Buffy knew Anya was a vengeance demon since S6, she let her be all summer between S6 and S7, knowing she was granting wishes and cursing men, she even let her be in Beneath You. By Selfless, enough was enough; Buffy had to deal with the situation.

I agree with you, though, about Anya being reachable -which we saw in the episode- and for the second time, Willow does a spell to help her best friend (this time Xander) just like she did a spell to help Buffy in Becoming. I love Willow.

 

[Spiciu]

I still dont get why they didn't get together again. She loves him, he loves her... and why the hell isn't "I'll be Mrs" on the musical soundtrack cd? It's so beautiful 🙁

 

[Washburne]

.. and why the hell isn't "I'll be Mrs" on the musical soundtrack cd? It's so beautiful 🙁

OMWF aired november 6th 2001 and Selfless october 22nd 2002. I guess the album was realease somewhere between. But I'd love to have it on the cd.

 

[The Unspoken]

This episode is a great mix of comedy and drama - and a musical number as icing on the cake.

But I was surprised to learn that Anya was socially awkward and 'strangely literal' even when she was a human. I always thought it was the long time she spent being a demon that left her that way.

 

[Thursday]

But I was surprised to learn that Anya was socially awkward and 'strangely literal' even when she was a human. I always thought it was the long time she spent being a demon that left her that way.

I agree. Even though the flashback was funny, it was weird seeing Anya the same as she is now. It's kind of unbelievable that she hasn't changed after a millenium of not being human.

 

[BananaBuffy]

I've always said that I DO love this episode although I'm not the biggest fan of some of the flashbacks. But it was one of my favourite episodes of Season Seven because I do love Anya and all of that and it was interesting to see her 'somewhat' evil.

The singing scene was great. Though the song did fall flat compared to many numbers in Once More, With Feeling. But that's okay because this isn't Once More, With Feeling and the song didn't have to be downright amazing. But I do think that Emma Caulfield was doing very well with the singing before it cut off. It was the chorus of the song that I really, really liked. Some of that scene felt a little old fashioned and all that but you know, I understand that.

The flashback scenes, I'll admitt, felt a little off for me. Maybe because my eyes aren't good enough to follow the subtitles in that first one, I'm not sure. But, although I am the biggest fan of flashbacks that there ever was, it didn't work for me.

However, there were some good Hally moments in this episode. Her death was somewhat shocking and sudden which we don't always have. I loved the shock and suprise and although it's kind of sad I didn't mind seeing Hally go. She was a humorous character and interested granted but there was something that irriated me about her the whole time. Not sure what it was though.

It was somewhat sweet how Xander didn't want to kill Anya but Buffy was completely in the right. What she said about Spike, Angel and them not choosing to be evil but Anya choosing to was true and what she said about the whole Angel thing. She killed the person she loved most in the world because she had to and Xander wasn't strong enough to do that. Honorable as his intentions and love was, he was wrong.

Amazing ep, despite my problems with it. I definitely enjoyed it. But the hearts thing...gross.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

While Anya's song felt to me like coming out of nowhere (or to be specific, from another episode and season-OMWF), it felt right. Not only the song, though, but the entire episode, and the flashbacks (flashback became a very important thing in the show, during the history of the show). It showed more of the things that we needed to know about Anya, in order to understand where she's coming from better (not her origin, but her feelings and actions). Why she needed to do certain stuff, how she felt about doing them, how she felt about her relationship with Xander and the others (like she needed to tell Willow she had a new boyfriend). Even though a demon, she's not killing and destroying (men?) just because she's evil. Most demons you see on the show, are very "like to crash, crash now?" (Spike's quote), they kill because they're evil. Anya, at this point killed and harmed not because the evil side of her. Lately she's not very good at her job. I think it's because ever since she became human again, she grew the thing that's called "feelings". She had experienced the things demons who were never human/soulful would never experience. She hates that. She wants Buffy to rid her of this life, to off her. She's clearly affected by both worlds: good and evil, human/demon, life/death. She's experiencing both and she's having the hardest time dealing with it.

 

[zobothehobo]

I love this episode. I'm currently in the middle of it in my re-watch and I'm reminded how much I love it. I love Anya so it makes sense that I'd love this most Anya centric episode. I do however have a big huge question. Why didn't someone just smash Anya's power center? Wouldn't that reverse the spell and make Anya human again? That just seems like a much simpler and less painful (emotional and physical) way to achieve the same result.