Buffy ep by ep; SMASHED-calm down Spuffers!

[Kana]

I don't really think killing humans is okay. Just playing devil's advocate really. But when human blood is their natural food source, it is hard to judge it too harshly. I mean, they can live off of rats obviously but I could live without chicken too. lol

I'm not actually saying it's inherently wrong but it's difficult to compare. Vampires although they kill their prey without remorse, they still have a complicated relationship with them. The way Spike and Harmony for example, interacted with humans is somewhat different than the way you'd interact with a chicken. If the chicken started expressing it's fear and started communicating that fear to you. If it began to think it's future dreams will cease to come into fruition, because you were going to end it's life. The problem is vampires are made from the raw materials of human beings.

However I conclude that because of the nature of most of the vampires we've seen, vampires must be judged differently. It seems if you take a reasonable human being let's say a sensitive minor poet who seems to abhor violence and prefers only to create 'things of beauty' and turn him into vampire, he could become one of the most violent creatures the world has seen. A creature that doesn't only kill for food but also for sport and on occasion simply random fits of rage. Despite his retention of his ability to love, he still had a history of violence that apparently rivals even Angelus. Considering Liam wasn't a sociopath when he was human ( I always hate the arguments that people think Angelus was the worst vampire because Liam was a jerk. I mean he was a player, but he wasn't a psycho.), it makes sense that vampire shouldn't be judged by human moral standards.

As for what that means for the ep and Spike's relationship with Buffy...? Well the jury remains out on this one.

 

[Kitten Poker]

I seem to have started an interesting discussion here! I take on board the points that Vampires should see humans as different because they can relate to them, and of course that brings up the whole "how much of the person is left or is it completely demon" debate which probably belongs somewhere else.

Just to play Devil's advocate a little more, Buffy's treatment of Spike is very morally ambiguous to me. Even before he can hit back she thinks nothing of using him as a punching bag, knowing she'll have no reprise. That's "OK" to her because he's a vampire and has "no feelings". Even though in Dead Things he gives her permission and doesn't fight back, she beats him to a pulp. This really is her lowest moment and there's no excuse for it, because if we say "vamps interact with humans and should see them as different" shouldn't we say "Buffy interacts with Spike and should at least see him as different to the average vamp?" If the sexual roles were reversed and we saw a man beating a woman up like that we'd have no problem in condemning it.

I love Buffy to bits, but as I often say to my girlfriend's kids, "Just because I love you, doesn't mean I don't sometimes think you do wrong things."

 

[saturn5]

Humans kill cows for food. Is that evil? Lions kill antelopes for food. Evil? Vampires aren't human. It's a stronger species feeding on a weaker one. Food chain.

I make the same point as the others, humans are sentient beings, vamps were once human, now they're a human body possessed by a demon. They are all evil, all rooting for the devil against God although some are more evil than others. Even the vamps in Buffy ADMIT they're evil, they don't even try to justify what they do.
And I agree it would be hard to take if the Slayer were male and beat up a female vamp but I'm okay with Buffy occasionally hitting Spike because he's evil, a mass murderer and has previously tried to kill her and her friends. He deserves it, he's just lucky Buffy's such a softie she let's him live

 

[EllaBlack]

This is my favorite episode

but I dont watch it in front of my mom its too awkward

 

[charmedones193]

I Found This On Youtube (Ive Never Seen It Before Its The Original Ending) [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy8Xx7Wka6U&feature=PlayList&p=489ADD762EF89E72&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=63"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy8Xx7Wka6U&feature=PlayList&p=489ADD762EF89E72&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=63[/ame]

 

[Vengeance]

Caught this one again on LOGO, Xander annoys me in this episode. One of the first things Buffy says in Normal Again after Xander leaves Anya at the altar is "you don't have to explain to us." Yet when Buffy makes a mistake he starts berating her for it. He seems more perturbed by this than by Buffy, oh say, trying to kill him. Xander and his mystical "seeing" power never really existed if he can't even tell that she's depressed for most of this season and that she needed someone.

 

[sosa lola]

Caught this one again on LOGO, Xander annoys me in this episode.

The only thing that annoys me about the episode is the little Xander screen time it has. I think you're talking about another episode. 😉

Xander and his mystical "seeing" power never really existed if he can't even tell that she's depressed for most of this season and that she needed someone.

I think Xander gains this power as he matures and not since the beginning of the show. He does start to see more and talk less in S7 (and later in S8), so he still doesn't have this power in S6.

 

[TheWatcher]

OK, I'm a Spuffer, but I didn't like this episode at all, despite of the sex. I preferred a lot episodes about Spuffyness such as Gone and Dead Things. Anyway if there's a victim in this relationship, that's poor Spike. Buffy uses him, and she pretends that's all fault of Spike's temptation, but it's just her fault, she's the one who zipped out Spike's trousers and accepts to be done everything. Last night I felt triumphant when I saw "Conversation with dead people", in which Buffy confesses she used Spike as a toy.
However, Spuffy was necessary for the best of BTVS, because it's the least consequence of a return to an hellship Earth after Paradise, Buffy and everybody else in the show had to go through a dark moment, even if unpleasant for us, but without it the show would have been too plain and unreal (if you don't consider vamps), and we all would be more disgusted by happily ever after (after death and resurrection) than by tied sex.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

OK, I'm a Spuffer, but I didn't like this episode at all, despite of the sex. I preferred a lot episodes about Spuffyness such as Gone and Dead Things.

Yeah, I don't think anyone really likes this episode. It's pretty bad.

It is interesting, though, that Buffy decides to persue a sexual relationship with Spike only AFTER she finds out he can hurt her.

Anyway if there's a victim in this relationship, that's poor Spike. Buffy uses him, and she pretends that's all fault of Spike's temptation, but it's just her fault, she's the one who zipped out Spike's trousers and accepts to be done everything. Last night I felt triumphant when I saw "Conversation with dead people", in which Buffy confesses she used Spike as a toy.

They were both victims. Both used each other. It was a mutually destructive and dysfunctional relationship. It's easy to feel bad for Spike, but it takes two to tango. Buffy didn't force Spike to sleep with her. He did it anyways, even if he always wanted more.

However, Spuffy was necessary for the best of BTVS, because it's the least consequence of a return to an hellship Earth after Paradise, Buffy and everybody else in the show had to go through a dark moment, even if unpleasant for us, but without it the show would have been too plain and unreal (if you don't consider vamps), and we all would be more disgusted by happily ever after (after death and resurrection) than by tied sex.

Exactly. I completely agree that Spuffy was important to the show. 🙂

 

[TheWatcher]

Buffy didn't force Spike to sleep with her. He did it anyways, even if he always wanted more.

Well, she didn't force him, but in the meaning of "she didn't rape him" (or nearly XD).
She knew that being a soul-less vampire made Spike an animal, who can't stop his instincts and who loved her. How could he refuse her advances? OK, maybe he could, but he's a vamp, and that's all. That's why he gets a soul, because this way he can reject Buffy so that she understands it's not just basic sex instinct for him, but love. But after all, he uses her a bit XD.

 

[StarSlayer]

Yeah, I don't think anyone really likes this episode. It's pretty bad.

Hehe, I like it. 🙂 I don't think it's one of the best episodes, but I don't mind it, and not just because of Spuffy. I think there's some funny moments, like when Amy comes back and sees Buffy. "How've you been?" "Rat, you?" "Dead." And when Spike threatens to break the Trio's Boba Fett action figure and they freak out, lol!

 

[VampireJason]

This episode was okay I guess, not a favorite. Being a S7 Spuffy fan I found S6 Spuffy just plain creepy. Buffy sleeping with Spike just to feel alive again?! (Shivers) But the part where Spike threatened to break Boba Fett was funny. I use to somewhat like Amy but when she came back in Season 6 she wasn't exactly likable anymore IMO.

 

[Spikefan31]

I loved this episode, and not because of the Spuffy sex scene at the end. Honestly, it really didn't do anything for me. It was 'meh'. It's the rest of the episode, such as Spike barging in and threatening the Trio, that made me like it.

Also, in regards to Season 6 and Spuffy, I was actually surprised. From what I'd read of people's opinion on Spuffy sex throughout the season, I was preparing myself for the worst but it was less graphic and much shorter-lived than I'd expected it to be. Now I prepare myself for the worst in watching Seeing Red which airs tomorrow. I don't doubt a particular scene in it will be horrible to watch.

 

[Thursday]

After three years, it was nice to see Amy finally de-ratted. I enjoyed her character, and wish writers would've done more with her. She could've been an interesting character and a good foil for Willow.

 

[white avenger]

Something else about the fight/sex scene in "Smashed" that I never really noticed until a non-Buffy fan pointed it out to me. That scene, on one level, is actually FUNNY. Buffy ckimbs Spike like he was a tree, and they're going at it like rabbits, when they go crashing through the floor, drop 10 feet or more onto what is most likely a concrete floor, and there's Buffy, still pounding away, and Spike with a look of wonder on his face (maybe wondering if his back was broken). The house is literally collapsing all around them, and Buffy is still going, completely oblivious to all of the falling dirt and debris. And it's not until the NEXT MORNING that either one of them even notice anything about it. A performance like that has to either fill you with awe or make you laugh at the absurdity of it all.

 

[BananaBuffy]

Spuffer here that can't calm down.
I've seen this episode many times and I haven't even watched the WHOLE series yet. Hell, I can recite this episode backwards.

 

[VisionGirl]

I guess I'm in the minority in that I like this ep. And not just the Spuffy sex part, although yeah, I'll admit it, I do like it. But I guess I focus less on the physical part of Spuffy season 6, and more on the emotional. I don't think sex with Spike is just about physical release, self-hatred, or anger for Buffy, but it does include those. I think it's more about the need to connect, to feel real, to feel human, to feel in general. She explains her feelings quite clearly in OMWF. And I don't think she sleeps with Spike simply because he's the only available & appropriate one, although yeah, there's no one else knocking down her door at the time proclaiming their love to her. It's because of their connection. And while I don't think that she loves him yet, I think the connection is deeper than she's willing to admit to herself or him.

Of course, if it played out that way, the whole self destructive, degrading, sex with the soulless blood sucking fiend thing wouldn't have happened, and that's the only way that the Bangel community can reconsile Buffy having sex with Spike.

WA, I know that this is an old comment, but I am virtually rolling my eyes at you right now LOL. Because as an undeclared shipper who kinda leans Bangely (is that a word?), I don't see it that way [see previous paragraph].

I Found This On Youtube (Ive Never Seen It Before Its The Original Ending) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy8Xx7Wka6U&feature=PlayList&p=489ADD762EF89E72&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=63

Um, wow, no wonder they had to cut that out!

As for Willow: I find it incredibly telling that she decides to go out with Amy after Amy manipulates her into doing so by reminding her of how she was in high school. This is a huge issue for Willow, and it's part of what's motivating her with her overdependence on magic. As I've said on the Wrecked thread, the issues with insecurity, power, and identity are so much more interesting than the magic-as-drugs metaphor.

I think it's funny that as much as Spike makes fun of the Trio, he also says to Warren "Help me out here, Spock, I don't speak loser". Um, who is the geek exactly? 🙂

And I love this exchange:
SPIKE: You're a tease, you know that, Slayer? Get a fellow's motor revving, let the tension marinate a couple-a days, then bam! Crown yourself the ice queen.
BUFFY: Need a few more metaphors for that little mix?

---------- Post added at 12:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 AM ----------

Oh, I wanted to add that I really like the score at the end. I find it interesting that when they're finally, uh, doing the deed, the violence and chaos kind of stops.

 

[zobothehobo]

First off, I love this episode. Second, I think the sex scene is really mild. That might just say something about me and my messed up mind... But I think it was pretty mild.

 

[svp]

You know what? In my mind, vampires can be divided into two camps. To a vamp (obviously), sucking someone's blood out (and killing them in the process) isn't inherently an evil thing to do. It's just food. They see people as... I dunno, farm animals? In order to have a tasty burger, you unfortunately have to kill the cow (thus, does Angel and Spike drinking pig's blood have some kind of "vegetarian" analogy? Hmm). We're "happy meals on legs" as Spike says.

BUT a large amount of vampires in the Buffyverse also want to open the Hellmouth so the demons can come out and play again and they can be higher up the pecking order. THIS is the evil part to me, not the animal instinct that they need to eat to survive. SO, did Spike revel in the harm he was trying to cause the young woman, or was he just like a man seeking a drink of water in the desert? Personally I think the latter. It's like surviving on Rice Krispies for two years then having the prospect of a steak dinner.

I think he's probably more good than bad at this point but it's about a 60/40 ratio 🙂

A little more on the Spuffy relationship (because I'm a sad case and I was thinking about it yesterday evening). Mostly in TV we're still expected to believe that a sex scene "means" something, it's shorthand for the characters becoming more intimate, emotionally closer. It's normally used as a symbol for them feeling warm and squidgy towards each other. So why doesn't it do that for me here? Because here, as Pat Benetar would say, "Sex is a Weapon"? They're basically just rubbing their happy bits together because they're both so angry and it seems the best way they can let it out.

There are other scenes in other episodes prior to this that make my feel all warm and squidgy far more because I think they tell us a lot more about where Buffy and Spike are emotionally. Towards the end of season 5 there are two very significant moments. Firstly their first (voluntary) kiss, where "Buffybot" thanks Spike for not giving away Dawn. That's actually a seriously good scene and shows that start of Buffy's change in attitude. Then in The Gift, where they go back to Revello Drive for weapons and Buffy has to re-invite Spike in (She's inviting him to enter her domain, wink wink). Then of course there's the scene in the Gift where Spike is the only person crying at Buffy's death. Of course the others are in shock, they will cry eventually and I'm not trying to lessen their grief in any way but I think it's interesting the way that shot is set up. Spike apart from the others, alone and sobbing, receiving no attention from anyone else. It's kinda foreshadowing, dude....

I love this entire post. Just thought you should know that 🙂

---------- Post added at 05:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------

I make the same point as the others, humans are sentient beings, vamps were once human, now they're a human body possessed by a demon. They are all evil, all rooting for the devil against God although some are more evil than others. Even the vamps in Buffy ADMIT they're evil, they don't even try to justify what they do.
And I agree it would be hard to take if the Slayer were male and beat up a female vamp but I'm okay with Buffy occasionally hitting Spike because he's evil, a mass murderer and has previously tried to kill her and her friends. He deserves it, he's just lucky Buffy's such a softie she let's him live

Okay, so this is completely off topic but I've had a theory for a while now about the whole vampires vs vampires with souls mess. I think that maybe when people are turned into vampires and their souls are expelled, it also eliminates their consciences, their morality and their abilities to feel and judge what is ethical and what is not. They're not actually "possessed" by demons, because, to everyone else, a person without those things would appear to be possessed by a demon.

The reason I bring this up is that I've always wondered what made Spike so different. Why, despite losing his soul, he still has the gigantic capacity for love. Looking at who he was before he was turned and comparing it to who Angel was before becoming Angelus, I think it makes sense. Elaborating a little bit further, all those bits and pieces listed above that make up a person's morality would be tied to the soul, and without a soul, what you have left is a person who functions the same as they always did, only without that pesky voice telling them not to do something because it's wrong.

Alright, that's the end of my insanely long ramble. Feel free to tell me if I make little to no sense. And to the person I quoted, sorry to drag your quote into this it just reminded me of my theory 🙂

 

[white avenger]

Just a thought here...


SPOILERS FOR SEASON 8 ISSUES 38 AND 39. THIS IS ALL THE WARNING YOU'RE GONNA GET!!!


All of the Bangel shippers have been saying ever since this episode first aired that the Buffy/Spike sex scene wasn't in any way romantic, but violent and degrading for Buffy and only affirms that all that Spike feels for Buffy here is lust, not love. So I would like them to explain how what happened between Buffy and Angel in Issues 30 & 39 was in any way different. Except that it was on a much larger scale, of course, and involved flight.