Buffy ep by ep; TOUCHED-sex and slitting throats

[TheVoid68]

If Buffy expects most houses to be empty, why can't she just go on to the house next door? Leave the innocent man alone Buffy, stop being such a bitca!

 

[saturn5]

MAN
Don't move!
Buffy doesn't flinch. She stares at the man without emotion.
MAN
Get out of my house.
BUFFY
Hey.
Her hand shoots out, lightning-quick, and snatches the gun from him.
BUFFY
I thought the place would be empty. I was looking for a
place to crash. You know, you really should leave.
MAN
You can't just kick me out of my own house.
BUFFY
Why not? It's what all the cool kids are doing nowadays.

She says he SHOULD leave. And she's right. All the scoobs are right and wrong at some time during the series, Buffy forgives her friends/family and they forgive her.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Wait, why is she right?

The last line in what I posted is her admitting that she's kicking him out, while she's upset about what happened at home earlier. Like TheVoid68 said, if she was expecting houses to be empty, why couldn't she have continued looking and left the man alone?

 

[xaphania]

Well, by kicking him out she did kinda save his life. 😛

 

[GrrArghx]

"He really should leave" because the town was about to be blown up, lol. The rest of the population left so she was telling him to leave with them for his own safety.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

If the scene had been done differently, where she wasn't trying to intimidate him or bring her own whiny crap into it, I would have felt differently. That wasn't Saving People Buffy, That was Woe Is Me Buffy. She probably could have shot the guy with his own gun and gotten cheered. :/ Okay, that might be drastic.

"He really should leave" because the town was about to be blown up, lol. The rest of the population left so she was telling him to leave with them for his own safety.

The explosion they didn't know about yet from the amulet they didn't have yet?

 

[Bungle Jerry]

It's ambiguous. While certainly there's a (strong) element of boo-hoo-poor-me in it, she is saying that he should leave town, for his own sake. Parroting the advice Clem gives her. It's not that clearly demonstrated, but I think it's there in the 'you really should leave'.

 

[Big Damn Hero]

I disagree, I think Buffy's being a self-pitying arrogant bitca in this ep and the one before.

 

[Daniel Osbourne]

Can you honestly blame her, though? Cut the girl some slack, she's had to support her sister and friends and a bunch of ungrateful teenagers through this time of warfare with primordial evil! The whole point is she's drained and exhausted. And yes, Buffy is justified in kicking the man out of Sunnydale. It's for his own good.

Why is it so hard for people to forgive ANY mistake that the characters make, especially Buffy. Oh no, Buffy's a little snappy today, let's bash her! No offence meant, but eveybody has bad days.

Spike, on the other hand, is NOT justified in hitting Faith.

 

[TheVoid68]

Can you honestly blame her, though? Cut the girl some slack, she's had to support her sister and friends and a bunch of ungrateful teenagers through this time of warfare with primordial evil! The whole point is she's drained and exhausted.

That doesn't excuse the way she treats everyone.

And yes, Buffy is justified in kicking the man out of Sunnydale. It's for his own good.

That scene, to me, doesn't loook like she's doing anything for his own good. Couldn't she have said "hey, there's gonna be a big battle and I'd advise you to get out of town?" And if he wants to stay after that, then that's his choice. Buffy has absolutely no right to interfere in his life whatsoever, let alone tell him to leave his own house, lodge there without his permission, and then eat from his fridge.

Why is it so hard for people to forgive ANY mistake that the characters make, especially Buffy. Oh no, Buffy's a little snappy today, let's bash her! No offence meant, but eveybody has bad days.

The difference is that when most other characters make mistakes, the show takes notice, highlights the mistake and has the character apologise for it. In this instance, we're all supposed to feel sorry for Buffy and nod along with Spike's "you're amazing and faultless" speech. The show doesn't present Buffy's behaviour as wrong, and doesn't have her own up to her mistakes. It's not her mistakes that's the problem, it's the way they're presented and treated.

Come on, you can hardly say that people are too harsh on Buffy. She's made excuses for more than almost any other character I've ever seen, by the show itself more than anyone.

Spike, on the other hand, is NOT justified in hitting Faith.

Agreed here.

 

[Daniel Osbourne]

That doesn't excuse the way she treats everyone.

That scene, to me, doesn't loook like she's doing anything for his own good. Couldn't she have said "hey, there's gonna be a big battle and I'd advise you to get out of town?" And if he wants to stay after that, then that's his choice. Buffy has absolutely no right to interfere in his life whatsoever, let alone tell him to leave his own house, lodge there without his permission, and then eat from his fridge.

The difference is that when most other characters make mistakes, the show takes notice, highlights the mistake and has the character apologise for it. In this instance, we're all supposed to feel sorry for Buffy and nod along with Spike's "you're amazing and faultless" speech. The show doesn't present Buffy's behaviour as wrong, and doesn't have her own up to her mistakes. It's not her mistakes that's the problem, it's the way they're presented and treated.

Come on, you can hardly say that people are too harsh on Buffy. She's made excuses for more than almost any other character I've ever seen, by the show itself more than anyone.

I'll grant you that Buffy can be rather bitca-ish at times. Then again, her allies haven't exactly been very nice lately, either. Anya, Kennedy, Spike and even Giles as of late need to work on their people skills just as much as Buffy does. They don't get a royal bashing.

The problem with Buffy lies in the fact that she's admitted she has a superiority complex, and has an inferiority complex about the fact that she DOES have a superiority complex. The first of the complexes comes from the fact that almost every single time she's led the Scoobies into battle, she's emerged victorious. Their defeat in Dirty Girls shattered the group. She's lost her usual vote of confidence from Xander (I can excuse him that), Anya is insulting her for no reason (Buffy has done everything she has and suddenly she doesn't deserve to be a Slayer?!), and the potentials are understandably wary of going back to the vineyard. Buffy is exhausted and this exhaustion comes out in a tirade of frustration. Dawn is compelled to kick her out so that she can cool down.

Buffy only treats people harshly when it's warranted. The man she kicked out NEEDED to get kicked out. If she hadn't done what she had, the guy would probably have stayed there and gotten eaten. Or blown up. She could have been more tactful, true, but I doubt anyone in her current mood of hopelessness and exhaustion would really care.

Buffy's behaviour is acknowledged as wrong when it actually is. I can't think of an instance where she did something so terrible and didn't face the music at some point. The only thing I can think of is her occasional awful treatment of Dawn, who really was being treated like a 5-year-old sometimes.

What unwarranted excuses has Buffy made? If you're talking about Spike, he deserves an excuse, the slate was wiped clean when he got his soul back...

 

[Kana]

Very briefly, I've seen people make excuses for Buffy but I've also seen her treated extremely harshly. This is both on the show and on the forums. She is not only a hero but a leader, and she's had to deal with these burdens since dolescence. She is not immune to the pressures of life and sometimes she will make mistakes that seem unforgiving. The Scoobies were not forgiving of her mistakes but Spike was. So freaking what???!! What did we expect. I actually find this fair and consistent writing. Spike not Mr Objective, of course he's going to take Buffy's side. This is the same gay (soul aside) who'd love Dru even if she cheated on him. He's a fool for love and the situation with Buffy is hardly comparable. It is a little grey with maybe a little right and wrong on both sides.

The problem is, through various dicussions we'll all experience different opinions about the characters. I've actually, in my experience found them relatively balanced. Of course there are going to be unpopular opinions, (hence the thread) but, indeed, saying that Buffy is unduly praised as a character in general, needs justifying.

 

[white avenger]

The was-Buffy-right-or-wrong in this episode has been discussed almost as much as the Spuffy/Bangel issue, and with about as much actual progress. For every one of us who believes that what happened in this episode was no different than mutiny in time of war, there is someone else who thinks that Buffy was 100% in the wrong and was lucky that she was even allowed to return after she got the Scythe. (Possibly ONLY because she got the Scythe)

We'll settle the cave men vs astronauts dilemma before everybody agrees on this one.

 

[saturn5]

Buffy gave the guy in the house the best advice he ever got!

I think all the scoobs have been wrong at some stage, I think none of them bear grudges for what happened in season 7 and I think that's the right attitude

 

[TheVoid68]

What unwarranted excuses has Buffy made? If you're talking about Spike, he deserves an excuse, the slate was wiped clean when he got his soul back...

It's not that Buffy herself makes excuses, it's that the show makes them for her. The show, I think, often shows Buffy as being in the right and untouchable, when I don't think she is, particularly in S7. Take this episode for example, where we are told through Spike that Buffy is absolutely wonderful and that her friends should be ashamed for daring to question her - that's not just Spike saying those things, the tone of those scenes suggests that we, the audience, are supposed to agree with him, and as I don't, they hit a poor chord for me. Later, we are shown that Faith fails as a leader while Buffy was right (even though she wasn't), despite having to go through an incredibly contrived and unlikely series of events to reach that conclusion.

 

[sosa lola]

It's not that Buffy herself makes excuses, it's that the show makes them for her. The show, I think, often shows Buffy as being in the right and untouchable, when I don't think she is, particularly in S7. Take this episode for example, where we are told through Spike that Buffy is absolutely wonderful and that her friends should be ashamed for daring to question her - that's not just Spike saying those things, the tone of those scenes suggests that we, the audience, are supposed to agree with him, and as I don't, they hit a poor chord for me. Later, we are shown that Faith fails as a leader while Buffy was right (even though she wasn't), despite having to go through an incredibly contrived and unlikely series of events to reach that conclusion.

This is what I disliked about this episode. You said it the best. The writers clearly wanted us to side with Buffy, which is why I resent this episode. At least in Dead Man's Party, Revelations, and The Yoko Factor, both sides had a point and both were shown by the writers to be right and wrong.

Here it's obviously a case of trash ALL the characters (except the love-interest of course) to make Buffy look better.

 

[Daniel Osbourne]

The was-Buffy-right-or-wrong in this episode has been discussed almost as much as the Spuffy/Bangel issue, and with about as much actual progress. For every one of us who believes that what happened in this episode was no different than mutiny in time of war, there is someone else who thinks that Buffy was 100% in the wrong and was lucky that she was even allowed to return after she got the Scythe. (Possibly ONLY because she got the Scythe)

We'll settle the cave men vs astronauts dilemma before everybody agrees on this one.

I don't think that anyone was completely right or wrong on this issue (except maybe Anya, whose behaviour is just appaling here). I just like to think that in the current situation, the group was pretty much fated to have a big disagreement. Buffy turned out to be right, but she was wrong for trying to execute her plan like she did.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Faith says it's 'been a while' when she seduces Wood, implying since she's had sex or been with a man? Faith admits to Wood that Wilkins was like a father to her. Then she beds Wood, another older man authority figure with a dark side and possibly demonic essence.

Considering that Faith is a woman with a dark side and a stronger demonic essence, what is the problem? And Wood has never acted as Faith's authority figure. She did act as his for a brief period, when she took over Buffy's role as The Slayer, earlier in "Touched".

Even Buffy has a dark side and a strong demonic essence.

This is what I disliked about this episode. You said it the best. The writers clearly wanted us to side with Buffy, which is why I resent this episode. At least in Dead Man's Party, Revelations, and The Yoko Factor, both sides had a point and both were shown by the writers to be right and wrong.

We really don't know what the writers had intended. But I felt that Buffy was right about going after what Caleb had in the the winery. But as Daniel Osbourne had pointed out, I also feel that she was wrong in the manner she had proposed it. She was not being a good leader at the time.

 

[dazzlegradually]

But Buffy also might be thinking of how dangerous it is to live in the town now that Caleb is there, and then there is the army of uber-vamps. So she is doing the man a favor by kicking him out.

 

[zobothehobo]

I have a question... in this episode when The First/The Mayor comes to visit Faith and he says to watch out for Buffy... why did that not clue her in that they needed Buffy to win that fight? That The First was obviously scared of Buffy telling Faith to keep Buffy away. I mean did she actually believe The First had her best interest at heart?

---------- Post added at 03:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 AM ----------

Also as I finish the episode in my re-watch it's brought to my attention again how readily those girls followed Faith with a plan that obviously had less thought than Buffy's plan. They had no idea what could be waiting for them at the arsenal... and they trusted a bringer to tell them the truth. That's as reckless as Buffy trusting Caleb was telling the truth in Dirty Girls. At least when Buffy came to them in Empty Places with her plan and idea of going back to the vineyard, she had reason other than "an agent of the first said..." Her plan had legitimate reasoning that extended beyond just what Caleb said and they knew what threat was waiting for them at the vineyard...