Buffy: Premier And Finale

white avenger

white avenger

white avenger
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Let's take a break from the shipper wars.

Compare Buffy as she first appeared in "Welcome To The Hellmouth" to the last time that we saw her in "Chosen."

How has she grown, what has she learned, what has she lost, what has she gained, what you like, what you hate, address any or all of those areas, or anything else that you want to EXCEPT boyfriends, girlfriends, love life, vampires with souls, or cookie dough.
 
white avenger said:
what has she learned
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Nothing.

white avenger said:
what has she lost
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Mostly humanity, also sanity.

white avenger said:
what has she gained
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Traumas, neuroses, complexes.

No, but seriously, comparing these those two is not very favourable for Chosen Buffy in my opinion. I understand Welcome to the Hellmouth Buffy, I get who she is, I understand her dreams, her choices. With Chosen Buffy I understand nothing - she's irrational, she's self-contradictory and most importantly, she's weird. I don't get who this chick is anymore, not sure if she knows herself. Seven years on the front does that to you, I suppose.
 
Exactly.. it almost felt like a character regression than progression. She certainly is not the same character. In the later seasons the show felt more masculine and her actions and thoughts reflected that as well, in my opinion. She surrendered to the same system she previously fought against. She gave in and gave up. She stopped being a heroine and started to become a victim. She stopped being a champion and merely was a survivor.
 
Buffy used to be a fun and lively girl with a sense of humour who was sort of a rebel against authority. She knew what she believed in and fought to get it.
Buffy in the end was tired, defeated and a shell of who she used to be. You hardly ever see her smile, her quirky personality has died in the ass and she starts turning away from her closest friends and allies.
It all comes down to her realising she will never have a 'normal' life, everyone around her may die, she might die (again), it will always be an uphill better that never has a finish line. No wonder the poor girl has given up. There is definately no light at the end of this tunnel or no silver on this lining.

To me, the 'real' Buffy left the building at the end of season two and just progressively went downhill from there. Growing up and losing a lot definately took its toll.
 
white avenger
white avenger
This is very a good assessment, though I'm not very sure how a personality, quirky or otherwise, dies in the ass.
thetopher said:
Buffy's a hell of a lot thinner for one thing.

Give that girl a cake or something. Might cheer her up.
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I thought the same thing. As small as Sarah is, the loss of just a few pounds is exaggerated, making her look almost emaciated. Think about it, though, in the context of Season 7, given the pressure that Buffy was under, she would certainly be burning up a lot more calories than ever before, plus now she's been coming in from patrol, probably hungry, only to find that the "little locusts" have eaten everything in the house, including even Andrew's funnel cake.

Still, I agree, Sarah needed to push the salad away and get down to the meat and potatoes more in Season 7.
 
Mr Trick said:
Oh, I can't believe that we are bringing her weight into this😱 Give it a rest people she looks perfectly fine in the later seasons and besides its no big deal anyway😉
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Much "finer" and she would have had to stand in the same spot twice, just to make a shadow. No one has said that Sarah wasn't an attractive woman, we're just saying that she's a THIN attractive woman.
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
lol.. same spot twice to make a shadow.. that is great!
white avenger said:
Much "finer" and she would have had to stand in the same spot twice, just to make a shadow. No one has said that Sarah wasn't an attractive woman, we're just saying that she's a THIN attractive woman.
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Well I personally didn't notice her being that much thiner in later seasons and certainly wouldn't say that she was ever TOO thin. If she was it might make sense with the progression of the character as when she took her Slaying duties more serious later on that would mean more training.
 
You guys don't like her after S7? She's changed in many ways and she's more vulnerable, but the essential core Buffy is still there, if you ask me. A lot of her changes come with being an adult too. She went through a period of feeling victimized and indulging too much in that feeling, but it was understandable and I feel she found most of the answers she was looking for to move on by the conclusion of S7. People who say things like she was defeated, a shell of her former self, regressed in life, lost her humanity, etc. are really exaggerating everything in my opinion.

And besides, Buffy S7 is 'bruised fruit' and that is attractive imo and I can certainly empathize with that condition of being bruised fruit. She's suffered many pains, she's a little more mistrustful in general, a lot less naive and a lot more tough...in other words, she's taken her lumps from the world and knows something about it now (lost her humanity? That's actually the opposite of the truth, she actually knows what it means by the end of S7)....to me that is more attractive than a 16 year old girl who doesn't really know anything about the world or people yet and is naively happy. Or should I say bruised cookie dough.
 
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This is tough to assess since so much happened between the start and the end. I can't help feeling a little sad when comparing Buffy as we first see her to how she leaves our screens but at the same time it's not all doom and gloom either. The biggest change I suppose is in how seriously she takes her calling. When she first arrived her attitude is very cavalier, she'll fight if she bumps into a problem but otherwise will carry on as normal. By the end she realises and accepts that she is the main line of defence for humanity and that means being the slayer is a massive part of her life, not something she can switch off for the majority of her time.

Unfortunately what that means for her personally is the sacrifice of free time, hobbies and most of the things that make people happy. We don't see her excited to go to The Bronze anymore, or wherever the old folks would go in town. She's not trying to sneak in a date if someone tells her a big threat is looming. She's sacrificed most of her enjoyment for responsibility.

We also have to remember that Buffy at the end has been fundamentally changed by The Monks re-writing her life. Season 1 Buffy is an only child and some traditional traits of that can show at times. It's mentioned by Joyce when Faith shows up. By the end Buffy is a big sister and pretty close to a mother figure. She's used to having that kind of relationship and also responsibility. I think it shows in her willingness to take in refuges in Season 7. I'm not sure at the start of the show she would have been able to cope as well with that. I'm not saying she would have kicked them out but I think it would have been more begrudging.

Romantically I think she's much less idealist and optimistic. Season 1 she has crushes and general excitement about dating. We see with Angel she has a belief in soul mates / the one / happily ever after and so on. I think that's mostly lost by the end. Between the break ups and her calling I think she's more accepting that any relationship she has will be hard work bordering on impossible.

I don't think she fears death anymore by the end either. She's been through that and has come back. You're not likely to see another speech like from Prophecy Girl. She goes into every battle accepting she might die but not fearing it and always putting the planet before herself. After 7 years she's also a much more capable fighter now.
 
AnthonyCordova said:
You guys don't like her after S7?
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It's not a question of likes or dislikes, it's just a simple (or complex, if you want to make it so) question of how the character has changed over the years, how the experiences, the pain, the losses, dying a couple of times, and whatever else you care to mention has effected the character. I specifically stipulated no romance, boyfriends, etc, just in order to bypass another ship discussion.
 
The Bronze
The Bronze
My bad! I totally got carried away and put in a paragraph about relationships. Pretend you didn't see it
Funny. I can see how S2 Buffy is generally happy, but in Welcome to the Hellmouth, she's traumatised, stigmatised by being blamed for burning down a school building, freaked out by her calling and really defensive. In contrast at the end, she understands her calling and has also challenged the 'rules' of it, finding a way to own it and change it on her own terms.
Oddly, the one thing they have in common is a more difficult relationship with Mr Giles than in the intervening time...
I don't think the fact that she is less willing to have fun in S7 is all that relevant because she's in the middle of a war and trying to be a General. I've been rewatching Band of Brothers this week, and Damian Lewis doesn't smile much either 🙂 She smiles at the end and that's good by me.
 
Buffy wasn't my favorite female character so I never thought about it before, but now lets see:
-Buffy supremely annoyed me in Season 3. When Faith entered the scene, at first it seemed like a little sister like relationship (Not wanting to share and such). But I soon found myself screaming at my screen 'Stop being such a stuck up bi*ch and help Faith you dumb f*ck! Life would be better for everyone if you just play nice!' (<--Actual words while I was drunk. Side note, I drank a lot while watching Buffy/Angel. Made the experience so much better).
But anyways, due to Buffy's actions, I actually enjoyed Faith going bad and turning on Buffy and Co for both entertainment value and just as a way to stick it to Buffy for her unfriendly treatment towards Faith.
- Season 5 made me completely feel for Buffy though. The loss of her mother and the new responsibilities she took on in being Dawn's guardian and providing for the both of them. So I wanted good things for her once again and started to gain some respect for the character.
- Season 6...I wanted her to be selfish and naughty and basically be/act like she literally is the special/chosen one. Something Buffy said in the episode where she and Demonic Anya fought made me utter a drunken cheer for her, and made me gain so much more respect for the character. 'It's always different, it's always complicated. At some point someone has to draw the line, someone has to make the hard decisions and that someone is always going to be me! There's no rulebook, human laws don't apply, there's only me. I am the law.'
That quote and the fact that Buffy's friends ripped her out of heaven...(the Scoobies thinking that she was in some hell dimension is such bullsh*t. The savior of mankind dies, not going through a portal and disappearing into a hell dimension...but dies, and her soul is sent to a hell dimension instead of heaven? Ya ok, go back to bed.)... further fueled my mentality of :
F*ck the world. You already get no reward for saving mankind everyday and being a provider for a child, so take your rewards. There's no reason why you should feel shame for doing anything that you want to do. Sex with Spike makes life better for you? F-it, ride him until you pass out. Not charging people for being a selfless heroine as Anya mentioned because why? It's wrong because your were chosen by some mystical whatever the f*ck without your consent to do it for free?...F-it, mamma's gotta eat. Start taking on peoples personal supernatural problems and charge them. Hell, in addition to patrols, offer 'protection' to keep certain business and sector's vamp free for some of dat casshhh. Not robbing vamps and demons before killing them? Not basically collecting 'protection money' from them to let them live under whatever peaceful terms you want? Why? Because it's wrong/illegal? F-it, either the dead won't need the money or in the other scenario, your keeping the peace between evil and humanity anyways.
Basically in Season 6 I wanted to be able to tell Buffy 'Listen, F-the-world. You literally died for it already. Just do you bubu.'

Season 7 I actually liked Buffy as she was more of a hard ass and badass. Finally we get the mentality of 'F**k this waiting around bulsh*t, I'm taking the fight to them.' There were a lot of scenes in which I was drunkenly cheering for her 'laying down the law'

So in a nutshell, early Seasons Buffy annoyed me but I liked the woman Buffy became in the later seasons.

(I apologize if I offended anyone with my comments, but it's how I feel so tpttttt 😛)
Cheers
 
thetopher
thetopher
Did you just blow a raspberry at the entire board? Respect.
Riderofapocalyp said:
But anyways, due to Buffy's actions, I actually enjoyed Faith going bad and turning on Buffy and Co for both entertainment value and just as a way to stick it to Buffy for her unfriendly treatment towards Faith.
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Evil Faith was certainly a great and entertaining arc. I suspect you might have had one too many drinks if you were routing for her though. Whatever Buffy's quality of friendship she was offering it didn't warrant Faith trying to torture and murder her.
 
The Bronze said:
I suspect you might have had one too many drinks if you were routing for her though. Whatever Buffy's quality of friendship she was offering it didn't warrant Faith trying to torture and murder her.
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Your opinion my friend. Sure it's not morally right, but I still routed for it. Admittedly less for the torture part.
 
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