Buffy Should Get Over Herself

[Angel's vision]

Angel NEVER made Buffy feel like a peice of crap for wanting to "kick Faith in the face" SHE INTERFERED like Wesley interfered with his efforts to help her.
So.He.Got.Annoyed.

I HATE the hard line people take to a person who has done bad things like Faith and have people wether they were the wronged or not, and take their hate/dislike to the limites and make themselves look righteous.

I think Buffy HAD a right to be hurt and angry towards Faith, I really do, BUT at the end of the day she was saying Faith did not deserve redemption, which is WRONG. She is not Jesus. Not judge over her and dictates wether Faith deserved it or not like she was doing.

 

[PurplePoof]

Righteously interfered, which is my entire point. Why on earth should Buffy have cared if Angel was trying to help her? The girl is human and she wanted to slap around the skank who stole her body and screwed her boyfriend.

 

[Angel's vision]

I seriously think you love to see people like Buffy stoop to people like Faith's level and give eye for an eye.
Buffy DID.*not.* righteously interfere, there is no such thing as righteously interfering in this instance. To say that is just ludicrous.

Why on earth should Buffy have cared if Angel was trying to help her?

because Buffy SHOULD NOT dictate WHO GET's redemption/help and who doesn't, that's why. I GET that Buffy was annoyed and wanted to slap Faith to kingdom come, but when it came down to Faith wanting to sort herself out, who should march down to L.A and try to interfere? play the role of Jesus,Judge and jury? Buffy. Does Buffy have the authority to condem people? *NO.*

 

[LorneyTunes]

I think Buffy Just wanted a piece of flesh , some vengence . Faith took alot from Buffy her body, her boyfriend. Maybe Buffy felt she needed that and maybe she could'nt trust Angel and Faith together because Faith is very jealous of Buffy. Buffy maybe over thinking that Faith was trying to get another point on the Faith Vs Buffy score board. She was however no way justified in her actions . Not trusting Angel to deal with Faith , demeans Angels state as a champion that Buffy has to save him.

 

[Blondie Bear]

I think they were both wrong. I think there was a lot of pent-up emotion between them and a lot of misunderstanding about the situation. They each did things wrong, and they each did things right. I think there are no "bad guys" in this situation, just people who don't agree.

 

[Kean]

I think they were both wrong. I think there was a lot of pent-up emotion between them and a lot of misunderstanding about the situation. They each did things wrong, and they each did things right. I think there are no "bad guys" in this situation, just people who don't agree.

I'm with Blondie.

I posted this awhile pack in another thread that essentially asked the same question as this thread. What happened in this ep was about hurt and fragile emotions it had nothing to do with Buffy or Angel needing to get over themselves. They were wounded and struck out.

I don't think either of them was really out of line.

Buffy came to make sure Angel was ok, now that wasn't her only motivation, she wanted vengence on both Faith and Angel. Faith for all the obvious reasons that I don't think we need to go into. Angel on the other hand, she was still unbeliveably pissed and hurt at his departure from Sunnydale, I don't think she really understood why he left. She had been his entire universe in Sunnydale and now she turns up in L.A. and realises it's not true anymore. I think that was a very bitter pill for her to swallow. He had Cordy and Wes, his very own Willow and Xander and at the time they seemed to be a hell of a lot closer than the Scoobies. Another blow for Buffy. Then she sees him with Faith and snaps. I think in her head Angel is very much hers and after Faith sleeping with Riley seeing her with Angel too pushed her over the edge. Now I could be pushing it with this theory but here it goes anyway, I think Buffy was also angry with Angel for Riley sleeping with Faith. In the back of her head there must be voice telling her that Angel would have known. I think that annoys her more than anything, especially since it was essentially Angel's doing that caused he relationship with Riley. More than anything I think she is confused and hurt by this new Angel. No matter what, he always had her back but now thats all changed cuz he has a job to do and for the first time since they met she is not a part of it. For anyone looking on you can see how far Angel has come since leaving Buffy and I think that breaks her heart, that he WAS right to leave, so as she is no place in his shiny brand new life she throws hers in his face to hurt him like she is hurting. Suddenly Buffy doesn't have the power in their relationship and so she hurts him the only way she knows how, with words and the life he wanted for her.

Angel was just doing his job in my opinion. Maybe he shouldn't have hit her. He didn't have time for her vendetta and he was cut up about Riley. The Day that Wasn't was still very fresh in his mind and even though he knew she would not remember I think a part of him hoped she would and was angry that she didn't. Then when she flung that bull about loving and trusting Riley, it was all he could take so he kicked her out of L.A.

Essentially I don't think it's about who was out of line, it's about two people who care deeply for each other not knowing how to exist in this new stage of their relationship, so they strike out and hurt one another to protect themselves. Like Spike said 'Your not friends, you'll never be friends'.

 

[DoctorWhovian]

It makes me laugh how Buffy is a bitch for wanting revenge on someone for stealing her body and sleeping with her bf, not to mention killing people, but Faith deserves redemption for murder.

 

[PurplePoof]

I seriously think you love to see people like Buffy stoop to people like Faith's level and give eye for an eye.
Buffy DID.*not.* righteously interfere, there is no such thing as righteously interfering in this instance. To say that is just ludicrous.

because Buffy SHOULD NOT dictate WHO GET's redemption/help and who doesn't, that's why. I GET that Buffy was annoyed and wanted to slap Faith to kingdom come, but when it came down to Faith wanting to sort herself out, who should march down to L.A and try to interfere? play the role of Jesus,Judge and jury? Buffy. Does Buffy have the authority to condem people? *NO.*

I'm sorry, but I choose to look at Buffy like an actual human being with all the flaws we share as humans. Regardless of what's right, she acted the way any reasonable person would have behaved in the same situation? Was she right? Maybe not. But that doesn't change the fact that I hardly think it was "wrong" of her to do what she did nor do I think she needs to get "over" herself. As for righteous interference...I'm talking righteous from her perspective, as well as those who saw where she was coming from. She wanted vengeance, and like she said..."she had a right to it." Tell me in that instance YOU honestly would have said "Oh, well, if she wants REDEMPTION, then cool beans! I'm totally willing to forget everything she just did to me and buy her a congratulatory ice cream cone!"

 

[Angel's vision]

Read Keonites post ^ I didn't say it wasn't wrong for her to feel like she did, react the way she did, she just didn't know when to stop and allow Angel to do his job, which was what he was doing. SURE I'd be reeling if someone stole me body, slept with my boyfriend BUT Faith was messed up and needed Angel to help her, and Buffy clearly saw she was broken, (and still continued to biach) TBH, that alone would give me satisfaction. Faith's redemption came at a bad time, when Buffy runs after her for vengeance. IN fact let's remember the main thing is Buffy admitted she was wrong to do what she did later on, and Angel appologised.

 

[DoctorWhovian]

Read Keonites post ^ I didn't say it wasn't wrong for her to feel like she did, react the way she did, she just didn't know when to stop and allow Angel to do his job, which was what he was doing. SURE I'd be reeling if someone stole me body, slept with my boyfriend BUT Faith was messed up and needed Angel to help her, and Buffy clearly saw she was broken, (and still continued to biach) TBH, that alone would give me satisfaction. Faith's redemption came at a bad time, when Buffy runs after her for vengeance. IN fact let's remember the main thing is Buffy admitted she was wrong to do what she did later on, and Angel appologised.

Well I'm currently watching S3 again and I wouldn't simply ignore what she had done to me.

Let's see:

- She accused Buffy of murder

- She tried to get Angel to lose his soul

- She then tried to kill him

- She killed people with the mayor and was trying to make ascension happen.

- She stole Buffy's body

- Slept with her bf

- Went to an ex bf and tried to kill him (again)

Hmm, yes let's let her off.

 

[Harm]

Buffy had EVERY right to do what she did. Faith messed with her and ANNOYING Angel tried to protect her. If I were Buffy I would have staked Angel and gone after Faith. Angel had no right to tell Buffy to leave. I wanted to punch him in the face, I wanted Buffy to.

 

[PurplePoof]

Read Keonites post ^ I didn't say it wasn't wrong for her to feel like she did, react the way she did, she just didn't know when to stop and allow Angel to do his job, which was what he was doing. SURE I'd be reeling if someone stole me body, slept with my boyfriend BUT Faith was messed up and needed Angel to help her, and Buffy clearly saw she was broken, (and still continued to biach) TBH, that alone would give me satisfaction. Faith's redemption came at a bad time, when Buffy runs after her for vengeance. IN fact let's remember the main thing is Buffy admitted she was wrong to do what she did later on, and Angel appologised.

I still don't think any of this really overrides what I said in my last post. Why would Buffy care if Faith was broken, and I think she could have bitched for the next YEAR and still had a lot of bitch left in her...when one takes into consideration what Faith did...

 

[InsaneMystic]

But didn't Giles make that excellent point, back in IOHEFY? "Forgiveness isn't granted because one deserves it, it's granted because someone needs it." (I'm translating back from the German dub, so don't come down on me if it isn't a literal quote. 😉 )

Sure, it's understandable human weakness that Buffy reacts how she does. It's weakness nonetheless - Angel clearly is "the hero" in this scene and has the "moral advantage", so I could cheer for him kicking Bitca!Buffy out.

 

[DoctorWhovian]

But didn't Giles make that excellent point, back in IOHEFY? "Forgiveness isn't granted because one deserves it, it's granted because someone needs it." (I'm translating back from the German dub, so don't come down on me if it isn't a literal quote. 😉 )

Sure, it's understandable human weakness that Buffy reacts how she does. It's weakness nonetheless - Angel clearly is "the hero" in this scene and has the "moral advantage", so I could cheer for him kicking Bitca!Buffy out.

Yes but it's not always that easy. He was referring to forgiving someone who killed his gf because he couldn't stand the thought of not being with her.

Faith just killed people.

 

[randiann]

Ok, here's my synopsis. Faith did Buffy wrong. Buffy got mad. That's how humans work. Would I feel betrayed if my ex whom I still loved was protecting my enemy? Heck yeah. Buffy doesn't need to "get over herself". She's a human being. Anyone else in a similar situation (you know, minus the slayers, vampires, and magic) would have reacted in the same way. If it was your best friend who had been betrayed, you wouldn't be saying "oh get over it", you'd be saying "that jerk! Let's kick both their asses!".

Now on the other hand, Angel was still hurting too. He still loves Buffy, and this isn't too long after IWRY, so he's still got that memory fresh in his mind. On top of that, he was truly trying to help someone, and Buffy was interfering with that. They both overreacted. They both were childish and rash. Should Buffy have backed down and let Angel do his job? Yes. Should Angel have been more considerate about Buffy's feelings? Yes. What I'm getting down to is that the world has alot of gray in it. It's not either "oh, Buffy was a bitca" or "Angel's stupid". They both reacted badly to a difficult situation. I gotta agree with Kean and Blondie. It's not a right and wrong thing. It's an emotional issue that neither handeled well. But that doesn't mean we should simply throw them under the bus for their reactions.

 

[Kean]

Yes but it's not always that easy. He was referring to forgiving someone who killed his gf because he couldn't stand the thought of not being with her.

Faith just killed people.

She never just killed people. The Finch was an accident and the old fella was because she was 'doing her job' as she saw it. She worked for the mayor, he asked her to kill him so she did. Faith didn't see how her relationship with Wilkins was any different from Buffy and Giles. Faith beat people up, alot, but alot of that was a manifestion of her self hate. The scene with her and Buffy in the church when their bodies were switched shows that but if you still weren't convinced there is her trip to L.A. She does everything in her power to make so Angel has to kill her, not the other way around. That's how deep her self hate goes. She wanted to die but couldn't do it herself. Faith was never a cold blooded murderer, it was never that black and white. Just like Buffy she was dictated by emotions, hers' just happened to be far more chaotic than anyone ever imagined.

It's not as simple as Faith kills therefore she is evil, nothing about the show was ever that simple. Faith deserved forgiveness just as much as Angel, Spike, Buffy, Xander, Giles and Willow do for all their sins.

Buffy, Faith and Angel all had ample reason to be hurt, in pain and seek revenge from each other. There is no one person from that group who is more sinned against that sinning.

 

[Harm]

Buffy = right
Angel = wrong

Faith = fun

😛

 

[DoctorWhovian]

She never just killed people. The Finch was an accident and the old fella was because she was 'doing her job' as she saw it. She worked for the mayor, he asked her to kill him so she did. Faith didn't see how her relationship with Wilkins was any different from Buffy and Giles. Faith beat people up, alot, but alot of that was a manifestion of her self hate. The scene with her and Buffy in the church when their bodies were switched shows that but if you still weren't convinced there is her trip to L.A. She does everything in her power to make so Angel has to kill her, not the other way around. That's how deep her self hate goes. She wanted to die but couldn't do it herself. Faith was never a cold blooded murderer, it was never that black and white. Just like Buffy she was dictated by emotions, hers' just happened to be far more chaotic than anyone ever imagined.

It's not as simple as Faith kills therefore she is evil, nothing about the show was ever that simple. Faith deserved forgiveness just as much as Angel, Spike, Buffy, Xander, Giles and Willow do for all their sins.

Buffy, Faith and Angel all had ample reason to be hurt, in pain and seek revenge from each other. There is no one person from that group who is more sinned against that sinning.

Ah well since she was 'doing her job' I guess it's ok.

Faith was a murderer. I don't care why she did it, but she did.

I feel sorry for the people who suffered because she wasn't happy with her life.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Ah well since she was 'doing her job' I guess it's ok.

Faith was a murderer. I don't care why she did it, but she did.

I feel sorry for the people who suffered because she wasn't happy with her life.

But you could say that about anyone. Buffy hurt a lot of people in Season 6 when she was unhappy. Angel (repeatedly) mindraped and manipulated people when he wasn't happy with how things were going, and they weren't too chuffed to find out. Willow...well, Willow. It's not all on Faith. But, since they're the good guys, I guess it's ok.

 

[Kean]

Ah well since she was 'doing her job' I guess it's ok.

Faith was a murderer. I don't care why she did it, but she did.

I feel sorry for the people who suffered because she wasn't happy with her life.

I'm curious so as to how you view Buffy (who tried to murder Faith) Angel (who on top of murdering countless people as Angelus actually slit his own son's throat for the greater good) Spike(mass murderer) Giles(murdered Ben) Willow(murdered Warren) Anya(1000 years of vengence against men) Gunn (murdered the Professer and played huge part in Fred's death).

Are all those situations black and white? Does all of the above fall into the good-bad columns that you have erected for Buffy and Faith?