Buffy Should Get Over Herself

[DoctorWhovian]

But you could say that about anyone. Buffy hurt a lot of people in Season 6 when she was unhappy. Angel (repeatedly) mindraped and manipulated people when he wasn't happy with how things were going, and they weren't too chuffed to find out. Willow...well, Willow. It's not all on Faith. But, since they're the good guys, I guess it's ok.

Buff never killed innocent people in S6 or any other season.

Willow had dark magic running through her. She couldn't control it and wasn't Willow anymore.
[br][/br]
Edit:
[br][/br]

I'm curious so as to how you view Buffy (who tried to murder Faith) Angel (who on top of murdering countless people as Angelus actually slit his own son's throat for the greater good) Spike(mass murderer) Giles(murdered Ben) Willow(murdered Warren) Anya(1000 years of vengence against men) Gunn (murdered the Professer and played huge part in Fred's death).

Are all those situations black and white? Does all of the above fall into the good-bad columns that you have erected for Buffy and Faith?

You're comparing killing for the greater good to Faith murdering because her boss asked?

Buffy went to kill Faith because not only was she the bad guy, she tried to kill Angel and was the solution to saving him. Wouldn't you have done the same thing for the person you loved?

Willow was under the influence of dark magic. She was not the same person.

Spike is a vampire without a soul. Hardly the same.

Anya was a demon, Faith was human.

 

[Kean]

You're comparing killing for the greater good to Faith murdering because her boss asked?

Buffy went to kill Faith because not only was she the bad guy, she tried to kill Angel and was the solution to saving him. Wouldn't you have done the same thing for the person you loved?

Willow was under the influence of dark magic. She was not the same person.

Spike is a vampire without a soul. Hardly the same.

Anya was a demon, Faith was human.

I'm quoting you here when I say they were all murderers. I don't care why they did it, but they did.

You cannot make excuses for everyone and not apply it to Faith. I don't agree with what she does but I know it's not as simple as she is just evil.

This show is nothing if not a study of the human condition and what exactly that means. Faith is part of that exploration and has just as much a right to seek redemption as anyone else in the verse.

 

[DoctorWhovian]

I'm quoting you here when I say they were all murderers. I don't care why they did it, but they did.

You cannot make excuses for everyone and not apply it to Faith. I don't agree with what she does but I know it's not as simple as she is just evil.

This show is nothing if not a study of the human condition and what exactly that means. Faith is part of that exploration and has just as much a right to seek redemption as anyone else in the verse.

What are you talking about? I haven't excuse anyone except Willow who does actually have a real excuse.

Dark Willow and Willow are completely different. Would Willow have tried to kill Giles? No. Buffy? No. Dawn? No. That obviously wasn't her, it was the dark magic.

Faith has no excuse. If I am going to pity someone, it will be those she killed.

 

[Kean]

What are you talking about? I haven't excuse anyone except Willow who does actually have a real excuse.

Dark Willow and Willow are completely different. Would Willow have tried to kill Giles? No. Buffy? No. Dawn? No. That obviously wasn't her, it was the dark magic.

Faith has no excuse. If I am going to pity someone, it will be those she killed.

Dark Willow is Willow, it's not like Spike and Angel sans souls. It was her emotionally destitute and easily taken over by darkness...wow I wonder who that reminds me of?

 

[DoctorWhovian]

Dark Willow is Willow, it's not like Spike and Angel sans souls. It was her emotionally destitute and easily taken over by darkness...wow I wonder who that reminds me of?

So why didn't she do anything to Andrew in S7?

Willow couldn't help being taken over by dark magic. This is said over and over. She didn't mess with the stuff because she 'might not come back'.

Faith chose to go to the mayor.

 

[Kean]

So why didn't she do anything to Andrew in S7?

Because of a little thing called character progression. She was the same person that killed Warren but she had learned from what she did, sahe regretted it deeply and made a conscious effort to be better, to redeem herself. Just like Faith.

Willow couldn't help being taken over by dark magic. This is said over and over. She didn't mess with the stuff because she 'might not come back'.

Faith chose to go to the mayor.

First off Willow stopped messing with dark stuff after she had hit rock bottom which included murder and attempting to end the world by the way. When Faith went to the Mayor she was in the midst of her 'darkness'. Once Faith had gone through the process of accepting her crimes and guilt and made the decision to be better she never returned to the her old ways.

 

[DoctorWhovian]

Because of a little thing called character progression. She was the same person that killed Warren but she had learned from what she did, sahe regretted it deeply and made a conscious effort to be better, to redeem herself. Just like Faith.

Willow would never try and kill Giles, Buffy, Dawn or hurt Xander. This is obvious.

First off Willow stopped messing with dark stuff after she had hit rock bottom which included murder and attempting to end the world by the way. When Faith went to the Mayor she was in the midst of her 'darkness'. Once Faith had gone through the process of accepting her crimes and guilt and made the decision to be better she never returned to the her old ways.

No, she stopped messing with the dark stuff after she almost got Dawn killed.

Aww well good on Faith. Let's give her credit for not murdering anymore people and ignore the fact that she started murdering in the first place.

 

[Kean]

Willow would never try and kill Giles, Buffy, Dawn or hurt Xander. This is obvious.



No, she stopped messing with the dark stuff after she almost got Dawn killed.

Aww well good on Faith. Let's give her credit for not murdering anymore people and ignore the fact that she started murdering in the first place.

This is where I bow out, I won't repeat myself over and over. Enjoy the boards.

 

[DoctorWhovian]

This is where I bow out, I won't repeat myself over and over. Enjoy the boards.

Having nothing to say is a bad thing.

Bye.

 

[PurplePoof]

But didn't Giles make that excellent point, back in IOHEFY? "Forgiveness isn't granted because one deserves it, it's granted because someone needs it." (I'm translating back from the German dub, so don't come down on me if it isn't a literal quote. 😉 )

Sure, it's understandable human weakness that Buffy reacts how she does. It's weakness nonetheless - Angel clearly is "the hero" in this scene and has the "moral advantage", so I could cheer for him kicking Bitca!Buffy out.

Giles did make an excellent point, and I repeatedly use that quote in real life with friends who I think just need to get the hell over being mad at another person. But I ultimately judge the actions of characters by relating them to how I think I would act in the same situation. Yes, the concept of forgiveness is a nice one, but is it realistic all the time? Sometimes it takes time to be able to forgive someone, and Buffy obviously wasn't ready to forgive Faith...and I don't blame her.

I don't believe Angel DID have a moral advantage, he just thought he did. He made it seem like he was Mr. Righteous and Buffy was just the biggest piece of shit alive for wanting vengeance. He just came across as self-important to me.

 

[Angel's vision]

I don't believe Angel DID have a moral advantage, he just thought he did. He made it seem like he was Mr. Righteous and Buffy was just the biggest piece of shit alive for wanting vengeance. He just came across as self-important to me.

Ok people ENOUGH with the bitchin! I'm talking to thiose who are getting emotionally overloaded here. I quote the above as an example, First off since when does getting cross at Buffy's interference come under self important and Mr righteous? Come to think of it, helping Faiths redemption?

He NEVER made out or gave the impression that Buffy was the biggest piece of Brown stuff alive. How does trying to help Faith come to terms with what she did, make Buffy feel like that? Buffy came over to tackle Faith, yes she was right to feel angry at her, and at Angel, BUT did she have the right to get angry because he was helping her come to terms with her actions? *NO* The writers wrote her like that after the initial getting the wrong impression of them both, when she saw Faith was trying to come to terms with her actions. She STILL acted angry and tried to STOP Angel initially from helping her. The only thing that stopped her was the councils interference, they wanted her dead, THAT was when Buffy helped so she could continue afterwards her vengence,when Faith eventually gave herself up, at the end of the episode, Buffy realised Angel didn't have her in the center of his world anymore, he had "switched sides" She saw Faith as stealing his loyaltiy and love and lashed out, instead of realing that this what Angel does HELP people, help them come to terms with what they did, who they'd become, he never had that, BUT he UNDERSTANDS what it is like because he has been there.

SO naturally he saught to help Faith. The way I see it, Buffy wasn't ready to see this, and forgive. Or come to terms with what Faith did to her.

BTW unforgiveness makes you bitter and angry, and the only person you punish is yourself.

 

[PurplePoof]

Do you always become this irate when people don't share your point of view? You're either misreading my messages or ignoring them altogether, or it would seem that way since you have a hard-on for argument and confrontation. I NEVER said that Faith didn't have the right to redemption or that Angel was WRONG for trying to help her. I'm merely looking at this situation from the point of view of a pissed off girl who wanted revenge on the chick who stole her body and nailed her boyfriend. I'm saying, IN THIS INSTANCE...do you really think Buffy gave a crap or SHOULD have gave a crap about Angel wanting to help Faith?

My god, do you GET IT? I don't know how I could make myself any clearer.

 

[Blondie Bear]

Okay, everybody take a deep breath and calm down. Remember, it's just a TV show (albeit a very good one), and we all see it in different ways depending on our different backgrounds. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and viewpoint, and no one is necessarily right or wrong here.

 

[yellowcrayon]

Okay, wow. *turns some fans on*

That being said, I am going to state my opinion and not address others. 😀

I remember that when first watching that episode, I was *so* mad at Buffy. I thought she was being such a bint to barge in there and act like she owned the place, not to mention ignoring Angel whom she ought to have trusted.

In some ways, looking back now, I think that everyone was in the right just as everyone was in the wrong.

It was wrong for Buffy to let her emotions take over and lose her self-control because she was angry and hurt. It was wrong for her to not even listen to Angel, or Faith, for that matter.

It was wrong for Angel to get mad at Buffy and not try and sit her down and talk reasonably.

It was wrong of Faith to violate Buffy's body and do the things she had done to her.

At the same time, it's perfectly justified for Buffy to be upset, because bloody hell--she had her body violated, her boyfriend violated (as much as I hate Riley, I'll still say that), etc. Angel was right to protect Faith and try and konk Buffy over the head and get her to come out of her self-absorbed little shell. And Faith, Faith did want to change, and Buffy was too hyped on the emotional high she'd got herself onto to listen to reason or Faith.

So in many ways, no, Buffy wasn't overreacting. At the same time, her position of Slayer puts a load of responsibilities on her, and as a leader she should have the self-control to pull herself together and sort things out reasonably. And, also at the same time, she's also human. Which means she's just as culpable to fits of pique as you or I or Joe Schmoe down the street is.

So, do I think it was wrong? Yes. Do I think it was understandable? Also yes. And I think if Buffy had been given a chance to cool down and relax and take a more rational look at things, she'd agree. It doesn't make her an evil person, though. It just means she made a mistake. 🙂

 

[Angel's vision]

Do you always become this irate when people don't share your point of view? You're either misreading my messages or ignoring them altogether, or it would seem that way since you have a hard-on for argument and confrontation. I NEVER said that Faith didn't have the right to redemption or that Angel was WRONG for trying to help her. I'm merely looking at this situation from the point of view of a pissed off girl who wanted revenge on the chick who stole her body and nailed her boyfriend. I'm saying, IN THIS INSTANCE...do you really think Buffy gave a crap or SHOULD have gave a crap about Angel wanting to help Faith?

My god, do you GET IT? I don't know how I could make myself any clearer.

I have said many times I get that Buffy was PISSED, it is you who doesn't get the fact that I was trying to say
you view that Angel was self righteous and self importnant was wrong. I got the impression it is you who is comming accross as confrontational and argumentative.

I am trying to give the other side of the argument, besides the view of Buffys. Which I felt you were ignoring.

Please don't make silly remarks about me getting a hard on for argument and confrontation, it isn't the case. As for the last remark well one shant dignify that with a responce. Like BB said it is only a TV show it isn't real!

 

[Kean]

Ok lads, I'm saying this now as a warning...keep your bitca cool. As I said in another thread this board is for discussion not to throw barbs and insults. If that's all you have to offer then reconsider what you are going to post. You have something to say to someone, do it in a PM, not in the threads.

If there are any more cat fights or OT replys to this post I'm closing the thread...you've been warned.

 

[Frketson]

I watched that episode on the weekend and buffy really got on my nerves.

When she hit angel and then angel gave her one back the look on her face was priceless. Kodak moment right there. 😀

Seriously though i can understand that buffy was pissed off but LA is angels turf, he was right and i bet buffy probably knew it, she just wanted revenge. Look how it panned out though, faith became a better person and saved Angel in S4 and helped Buff in S7.

Go Angel.

 

[wehappyfew]

Wow..I love how passionate Buffyverse fans are!

And I guess that's what buffy was. Straight passionate.
But she just came off sooooooooooooooooooo whiny and childish. In both of the Angel episodes she was in, she just had some nasty things to say.
Her immaturity really shined when she was on Angel.

That said, some of what Buffy says in Sanctuary is what makes me annoyed.
Firstly....a "right" to vengeance? No, I don't think so. That aint cool and is the exact opposite of what Buffy should have learned in season 2.
People need forgiveness...people have a "right" to forgiveness.
Secondly, when she first shows up and is like "You didn't think I was gonna find you?"
I just wanted to smack her, she came off sounding like she had mr.pointy shoved up her spinchter. to me, that just showed that she wasn't thinking about angel in any of this, she was thinking about faith...and what she was going to do to faith when she "found her."
Okay, so she ends up protecting Faith...big whoop. In Faith's body, Buffy knew what the Watcher's Council was capable of. If anything, Buffy was still thinking selfishly as "these are the guys who tried to kill me as faith." She wasn't going to give them a chance to score, just like she wasn't going to give Faith a chance to.
THE MOST ANNOYING thing I've ever seen Buffy do in all 9 seasons of the Buffyverse she's shown up in...was when she felt the need to unload on Faith on the roof, but then Faith tried to return the favor....and Buffy couldn't handle Faith's perspective.
It just showed how first grade Buffy was in this episode, and with that in mind, I can't stand by her.
So many people on this board are saying "Put yourself in Buffy's shoes" but Buffy couldn't even put herself in Faith's shoes (when she had been there literally) it just shows that Buffy was only thinking about herself and her love for Angel.
Also, an above poster pointed out that Angel's world was so different without Buffy and that may have upset her a little bit.
Once again, get over it.
And she decided to use that moment to tell Angel about how great her relationship with Riley was? PLEASE.
Buffy's told ANgel about how much she's grown up since he left, but in this episode she was the same whiny brat that she's always been...and probably always will be. I totally see where Dawn gets it from.
Of course Angel had the moral advantage and coud order Buffy out of "his town" Buffy was behaving like a buffoon.
So if she was bringing problems from Sunnydale to L.A. Angel doesn't have time for that. Buffy needs to get out.
Sure, Buffy can be upset...Buffy doesn't need to like Faith, Buffy can hate her for all Angel cares. But that's besides the point.
The point was that for the second time Angel was trying to help someone he could relate to and for the second time, someone feeling self-righteous came in and messed it all up. And then he had to hear all of Buffy's teenage spats.
"Faith wins again."
That was sooo bs. Faith as the scapegoat...once again. Completely uncalled for.
Basically, Buffy acts like a child. Can't take responsibility (make that response ability), can't handle the world beyond her, can't simply bow out, has to get in the last hurtful words...i'm sure the list goes on.
And that's what makes me so passionate about a thread like this. Someone acting like a child when the situation calls for a high level of maturity.

 

[pegolas]

My question is this: why would Buffy actually BELIEVE that Faith was truly remorseful this time and not playing them all again? Yes, Angel was trying to save Faith's soul, which is commendable, but you can't fault Buffy for not buying it (nor for being on pissed off slayer).

So I think that everyone and no one was right in this, which is why I so love these shows.

 

[Silum]

Now I'm no anti-Buffy but I am whenever she appears in the Angel episodes. She's such a bitca! Particularly in Sanctuary. Faith was willing to make things right and all Buffy could think about was what Faith did to her. Basically IMO Buffy was all "me, me, me".

I'm glad Angel stood up to her by slapping her and then telling her its HIS town.

Sorry I sound harsh but I really don't like Buffy in Angel.

Faith SCREWED her boyfriend. Umm, in my opinion she had EVERY right.

Couple this with how Angel treated buffy...stalked her in sunnydale in S4 (this is the part where she could say "This is MY town" but lets be honest Buffy's far less controlling) ... Angel stole a night away from her when he mind raped her memories of a perfect day so that he could be a vamp again (I will remember you).

If anything, I was pissed at Angel, dude needs to get over himself