Buffy & Spike vs Faith & Angel

[Robb Stark]

In "Destiny 5X08" in Angel, Spike and Angel fight for the goblet that supposedly is the Cup of Destiny that will determine which one of them becomes the subject of the Shanshu Prophecy. Spike beats angel and Angel acknowledges the fact later to Wesley.

Buffy has faced Faith before and beat and knifed her into a coma.

No reason to believe any of these things would change.

So all the times Angel beat the hell out of Spike...those just don't count?

 

[white avenger]

So all the times Angel beat the hell out of Spike...those just don't count?

It might be argued that that is exactly right. Angel had never fought Spike with a soul. Would that matter? Who knows?

Also, Angel had never fought Spike since Buffy had stated that he could be, and was, a better man. She believed in, supported, and defended him, even from her best friends. Could that boost in self confidence counterbalance the constant bullying, belittling, and bullying that Angelus, most likely with the cooperation of Darla and Dru? A simple boost in self confidence has been the deciding factor in a fight before. Just ask Chuck Norris about his problems with Bill Wallace. By Chuck's own admission, it was, in the end, his self confidence that won the championship, not any vastly superior skill.

Spike beat Angel the last time that they fought. Could he ever do it again? Nobody knows, and it's impossible to say with any degree of certainty, because they never ever really fought again, except for a few indecisive punches in "The Girl In Question."

 

[Robb Stark]

It might be argued that that is exactly right. Angel had never fought Spike with a soul. Would that matter? Who knows?

Also, Angel had never fought Spike since Buffy had stated that he could be, and was, a better man. She believed in, supported, and defended him, even from her best friends. Could that boost in self confidence counterbalance the constant bullying, belittling, and bullying that Angelus, most likely with the cooperation of Darla and Dru? A simple boost in self confidence has been the deciding factor in a fight before. Just ask Chuck Norris about his problems with Bill Wallace. By Chuck's own admission, it was, in the end, his self confidence that won the championship, not any vastly superior skill.

Spike beat Angel the last time that they fought. Could he ever do it again? Nobody knows, and it's impossible to say with any degree of certainty, because they never ever really fought again, except for a few indecisive punches in "The Girl In Question."

Well...there's a bit of an internal contradiction here.

The notion that Angel's prior fights against a pre-Buffy inspired Spike aren't as relevent because Spike has developed/changed since them isn't overly pertinent because later in your post you talk about mindset in a fight. Well, the entire theme of the "Destiny" episode where Spike and Angel battle over the chalice revolves around Angel's mindset and about what a bad place he's in mentally. So wouldn't that fight then not count, because Angel is in a different place now? I'm not saying it shouldn't, because obviously Spike scored a huge win that day, my point is that it isn't fair to cite a mitigating factor for one and not the other when they're in the same area.

Also, Angel should be stronger than Spike physically, which, while not the ultimate deciding factor, is still relevant to the discussion. Angel is roughly 110 years older than Spike, and we've seen from vampires like The Master, Kakistos and The Prince of Lies that undead age enhances strength. That's not indicative of pure fighting skill, but it still plays in.

And while they don't have another epic clash in the same manner as they do in "Destiny", they do exchange blows numerous times, and Angel comes out on top in every single one of them. As I've said, I'm not discounting Spike's victory in "Destiny", but he's beaten Angel exactly one time.

 

[white avenger]

Well...there's a bit of an internal contradiction here.

The notion that Angel's prior fights against a pre-Buffy inspired Spike aren't as relevent because Spike has developed/changed since them isn't overly pertinent because later in your post you talk about mindset in a fight. Well, the entire theme of the "Destiny" episode where Spike and Angel battle over the chalice revolves around Angel's mindset and about what a bad place he's in mentally. So wouldn't that fight then not count, because Angel is in a different place now? I'm not saying it shouldn't, because obviously Spike scored a huge win that day, my point is that it isn't fair to cite a mitigating factor for one and not the other when they're in the same area.

Also, Angel should be stronger than Spike physically, which, while not the ultimate deciding factor, is still relevant to the discussion. Angel is roughly 110 years older than Spike, and we've seen from vampires like The Master, Kakistos and The Prince of Lies that undead age enhances strength. That's not indicative of pure fighting skill, but it still plays in.

And while they don't have another epic clash in the same manner as they do in "Destiny", they do exchange blows numerous times, and Angel comes out on top in every single one of them. As I've said, I'm not discounting Spike's victory in "Destiny", but he's beaten Angel exactly one time.

I mentioned self confidence and mindset as contributing factors in a fight simply because they are, and that has been proven too many times to even try to number. I never said that they were the ONLY contributing factors, only that they should be considered. By Angel's own admission, Spike wanted the victory more, and that was why he won. Who's to say who's going to want to win the most next time? Spike may "want' the victory every time from now on. Personally, I doubt it, but only the future and Joss can say for sure.

We both agree that Spike has only beaten Angel one time. Where we differ is that I add two more words: "so far."

I'm not trying to say that Spike is now the top dog ensouled vampire in the Buffyverse. I'm just not ruling out the possibility.

 

[janas]

@white avenger agrees: Except for the fact that Buffy and Angel aren't one of the teams in question. The teams are Buffy & Spike and Angel & Faith

Okay, 🙂 So, in the fight, Angel beat Spike, Buffy beat Faith ..and then, Buffy and Angel go together to celebrate the victory.
Do you know why? because they are tired of staying to hear all those who would like to see them divided and enemies. Whether it's fate, or simply fans Spuffy.

And they lived happily ever after.
..well, except Spuffies, of course
Happy Halloween :tongue3:

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I mentioned self confidence and mindset as contributing factors in a fight simply because they are, and that has been proven too many times to even try to number. I never said that they were the ONLY contributing factors, only that they should be considered. By Angel's own admission, Spike wanted the victory more, and that was why he won. Who's to say who's going to want to win the most next time? Spike may "want' the victory every time from now on. Personally, I doubt it, but only the future and Joss can say for sure.

We both agree that Spike has only beaten Angel one time. Where we differ is that I add two more words: "so far."

I'm not trying to say that Spike is now the top dog ensouled vampire in the Buffyverse. I'm just not ruling out the possibility.

If the fact that Spike is in a different mind set matters, then that should apply to all the characters who are in a different place.

Faith more so then Spike. Spike unsouled still had Buffy on his side. Faith has never really had anyone on her side till now, yet a lot of people have instantly dismissed Faith in this discussion.

A side from that, Angel and Spike have fought again since Spike got a soul - In After the Fall Spike and a HUMAN Angel fight and Angel kicks his ass.

 

[white avenger]

If the fact that Spike is in a different mind set matters, then that should apply to all the characters who are in a different place.

Faith more so then Spike. Spike unsouled still had Buffy on his side. Faith has never really had anyone on her side till now, yet a lot of people have instantly dismissed Faith in this discussion.

A side from that, Angel and Spike have fought again since Spike got a soul - In After the Fall Spike and a HUMAN Angel fight and Angel kicks his ass.

45 years of experience in the martial arts tells me that mind set DOES matter, and also that it is non-cosistant, so, yes it does apply to all creatures in different places. So do a number of other factors. Remember the vampire who staked and almost killed Buffy? We can't say that he was a better fighter than she was, but her mind set at that moment was quite likely one of over confidence. He almost got his "one good day." Buffy almost certainly underestimated Spike in "School Hard," and,again, she almost died asa result. Angel probably underestimated Spike in "Destiny," and he could have died as a result. Call it mind set, fate, or just sheer dumb luck, nobody always wins unless their skill and power are so much greater than their opponent that they can totally overwhelm them, and that is most certainly not the case with Angel and Spike. Spike has beaten Angel in the past, and the same thing could happen again. Figure the odds however you care to, fut if you want to stay realistic, Angel is not the winner 100% of the time. Spike's had good days before, and he probably will again.

And, yes, the same thing goes for Faith. And Angel, and Buffy. Nobody is at their peak all the time. Everybody slips up occasionally. And with that in mind, I still say that Spike and Buffy would beat Angel and Faith. Because, ultimately, for me, any time that I get to see Spike fighting shoulder to shoulder with Buffy, against anyone or any THING, it's a good day.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

45 years of experience in the martial arts tells me that mind set DOES matter, and also that it is non-cosistant, so, yes it does apply to all creatures in different places. So do a number of other factors. Remember the vampire who staked and almost killed Buffy? We can't say that he was a better fighter than she was, but her mind set at that moment was quite likely one of over confidence. He almost got his "one good day." Buffy almost certainly underestimated Spike in "School Hard," and,again, she almost died asa result. Angel probably underestimated Spike in "Destiny," and he could have died as a result. Call it mind set, fate, or just sheer dumb luck, nobody always wins unless their skill and power are so much greater than their opponent that they can totally overwhelm them, and that is most certainly not the case with Angel and Spike. Spike has beaten Angel in the past, and the same thing could happen again. Figure the odds however you care to, fut if you want to stay realistic, Angel is not the winner 100% of the time. Spike's had good days before, and he probably will again.

And, yes, the same thing goes for Faith. And Angel, and Buffy. Nobody is at their peak all the time. Everybody slips up occasionally. And with that in mind, I still say that Spike and Buffy would beat Angel and Faith. Because, ultimately, for me, any time that I get to see Spike fighting shoulder to shoulder with Buffy, against anyone or any THING, it's a good day.

Oh yeah completely agree that mind set does matter, definitely, I just mean a lot of other people dismissed Faith becasue she's lost before and said Spike would win becasue he's beat Angel once, verses Angels 99% percent of the time, which to me just says their going by favorite character as Angel has defeated Spike again and Faith is in a completely different place now - as is Buffy, both times Buffy defeated Faith (or the big ones, stabbing her and getting her body back) she was fighting for her life, Fighting to save Angel and fighting to get her life back, Faith was just fighting, Buffy wanted it more.



I just reread the original question again and hadn't realized it said no souls, so Angel is Angelus and Spike is... Spike, Angel vs Spike is a close enough battle, Angelus vs Spike is a landslide to Angelus, we know they've fought before and Spikes never won, his win over Angel in Season 5 is irrelevant. As unsouled vampires there is no way Spikes winning.

I think an unsouled Faith would be pretty dangerous as well, I think an unsouled Spike vs unsouled Faith would be a close match and could go either way, but I still think Faith would get it, Faith is bad ass with a soul, without a soul she'd be ruthless plus since they have no souls are they vampires? We know slayers turned vampires are stronger then regular vampires so I think Faith.

I think an unsouled Buffy would be pretty much unstoppable though.

I dont think a team would win, I dont think any of the opponents would be taken out easily so I dont think they'd take care of one and be able to tag team the other.

If it went Angel vs Spike - Angel wins
Buffy vs Faith - Buffy wins
Buffy vs Angel - Buffy wins

if it went Angel vs Buffy - Buffy wins
Spike vs Faith - Faith
Faith vs Buffy - Buffy wins

 

[Xin Rong]

Maybe I should have provided a more detailed explanation when originally posting this thread.

This isn't a character analysis of where any character is, now, or some time in the past. Good and evil and who is which isn't important. This is simply an "X vs Y" match up like Thor vs Superman, Captain America vs Batman, or Buffy vs Vampirella. It doesn't matter who is paired with who or why. It is simply a contest between two pairs of fighters, possessing basically the same powers and weapons. It is not an analysis of the morals, motivations, or choices of partnership of those people. It doesn't matter who is whose friend, who loves who, or who considers who to be either their soul mate or mortal enemy in everyday conditions.

Would the combined fighting abilities and experiences of Buffy and Spike be superior to the combined fighting abilities and experiences of Faith and Angel? Who would make the stronger fighting team?

Well Faith and Buffy basically have the same abilities, although variations in technique, whereas Angel should (in theory) at least be more powerful than Spike, given the implication of the series that the further down a vampire line you are the less powerful you are, so Angel is only two down from the master, whereas spike is two down from Angel. So I'd go with Angel and Faith... people might argue that Buffy is better than Faith in technical ability, but we've no reason to believe that post season 3, it's all conjectural.

 

[white avenger]

Well Faith and Buffy basically have the same abilities, although variations in technique, whereas Angel should (in theory) at least be more powerful than Spike, given the implication of the series that the further down a vampire line you are the less powerful you are, so Angel is only two down from the master, whereas spike is two down from Angel. So I'd go with Angel and Faith... people might argue that Buffy is better than Faith in technical ability, but we've no reason to believe that post season 3, it's all conjectural.

Basically, the entire question depends on conjecture, guess, and opinion, based on your personal feelings, observations, and assessment of events both presented on the show and referred to as occurring in the past.

There is no absolute right answer. It's a "caveman vs astronauts" question, or, as Spock might say,"infinite possibilities and infinite solutions."

(That's a variation on the Vulcan philosophy of IDIC "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations " from "Star Trek.")

 

[ladydorotea]

I get to see Spike fighting shoulder to shoulder with Buffy, against anyone or any THING, it's a good day.

When Spike is around Buffy he is not fighting so much as trying to impress her, and for that reason alone he is a liability rather than 'partner'. Moreover when souled, he usually slips and gets one of them injured, exactly because he has such a huge chip on the shoulder (about his helpless crash on her), that he cannot truly concentrate. Which is ultimately very funny , because when he is with Angel, or with Faith he is a much better fighter. On the contrary, A&F are very good partners exactly because they never had any emotional distractions around each other. So, I would say Buffy with Spike fighting for her side is worse off than Buffy alone. Angel with Faith is better than Angel alone. Ultimately though, Angel when not possessed and not soulless fighting against any team that includes Buffy is going to be mostly about him trying to avoid any serious injury to her - so he would be hopelessly stumped. Same is true about her. So, any fight including these four will be a complicated and rather hopeless ballet that would be more about emotions than fighting. Soulless, though, is another matter. But then Spike is still at the bottom of this pyramid.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Yeah I definitely think people did the same thing I did the first time round, kinda ignored the parameters for the question.

In this scenario there's no souls, no morals, no loyalties.

So Buffy and Spike fighting together means they don't have a bond, there's no "connection" between them, no love. As Spikes fighting he's not gonna care if Buffy gets hurt.
So there's no distractions between them, there's also no "knowing each others moves" (which is a total crock anyway).

This is a soulless fight to the death between 4 people who have the fighting skills of these 4 people but are not them and on fighting skill alone its totally Buffy > Angel > Spike/Faith

For me I think a soulless Faith would be a better fighter then Spike. But we already know that soulless Angel vs Spike ends with Angel winning every time.

 

[white avenger]

When Spike is around Buffy he is not fighting so much as trying to impress her, and for that reason alone he is a liability rather than 'partner'. Moreover when souled, he usually slips and gets one of them injured, exactly because he has such a huge chip on the shoulder (about his helpless crash on her), that he cannot truly concentrate. Which is ultimately very funny , because when he is with Angel, or with Faith he is a much better fighter.

But then Spike is still at the bottom of this pyramid.

When in Season 7, did Spike "slip and get one of them injured?"

They fought the worm/man at the beginning of the season, but the only injury that I recall was the guy getting stabbed in the shouilder, something similar to Faith stabbing the Assistant Mayor in Season 3, but with less fatal results.

They fought in the alley when Spike saved Robin Wood. That MIGHT be seen as a slip up, considering the trouble that Wood is going to cause him later, but he had no way of knowing that at the time.

They fought in the abandoned Initiative Headquarters, but thi chip went off unexpectedly. I can't see as how that could be called anysort of slip up on his part.

They fought Caleb in the vineyard, and he beat the crap out of all of them, but I can't see that as any kind of slip up on Spike's part.

They fought in the ubervamp chamber in the last battle, but I don't recall any slip ups there, unless staying behind and destroying the ubervamp army at the sacrifice of his own life to assure that Buffy and the others get away safely. Is destroying Sunnydale while saving the rest of the world considered a slip up?

It's been a while since I've set down and watched Season 7 in its entirety, but those are the only times that I can remember when Buffy and Spike actually fought together that season, and I don't recall any slip ups by Spike that got, or almost got, Buffy injured. Apparently, Buffy forgot about them as well, since she referred to Spike as "the only one watching her back."

The closest to any sort of "slip up' that might have gotten Buffy injured was in the basement when all of the freshly turned vampires came out of the ground and grabbed her, but she and Spike weren't fighting together then. In fact, Spike was under the control of the First Evil at that time, so I'm not sure that would count as a "slip up" on his part.

And as for the "huge crush" that Spike has on Buffy, the only time that it was a real issue was when he returned from his road trip with Andrew and discovered that he was the only one who still considered Buffy to be the leader. The result of that was that, according to Buffy, he was what gave her the courage to retrieve the Scythe and continue her battle.

None of that seems to be any sort of liability to Buffy as far as I can see.

 

[ladydorotea]

When in Season 7, did Spike "slip and get one of them injured?"

Season 7 is actually spectacular example of Spike blundering while souled.

Being possessed by the First qualifies as worse than injured. Same goes for being burned to a crisp while standing. Having chip malfunction and cause problems qualifies as a distraction. Being abducted and tortured is not exactly being useful. Basically, in S7 Spike-y is at his worst fighting state - because he is doing so much soul-searching ( and whining and threatening other Buffy's allies) that he forgets he is supposed to be a bad-ass. Same is true for him in the comics, where he is either checking up Buffy's butt, is admitting to being a 'distraction' rather than asset, then gets nearly burned by Twilight-possessed Angel, while still whining and caused Buffy to interfere and waste valuable time on saving him for the emptienth time. 😛 In S9 Spike is probably in his worst fighting shape ever, but then Buffy is equally de-powered. Not to mention that his 'watching her back' actually causes her to become a robot - even though he has no evil intentions. Which only proves the point that when whiny and distraught by his crush Spike is a no-good ally.

 

[white avenger]

Season 7 is actually spectacular example of Spike blundering while souled.

Being possessed by the First qualifies as worse than injured. Same goes for being burned to a crisp while standing. Having chip malfunction and cause problems qualifies as a distraction. Being abducted and tortured is not exactly being useful. Basically, in S7 Spike-y is at his worst fighting state - because he is doing so much soul-searching ( and whining and threatening other Buffy's allies) that he forgets he is supposed to be a bad-ass. Same is true for him in the comics, where he is either checking up Buffy's butt, is admitting to being a 'distraction' rather than asset, then gets nearly burned by Twilight-possessed Angel, while still whining and caused Buffy to interfere and waste valuable time on saving him for the emptienth time. 😛 In S9 Spike is probably in his worst fighting shape ever, but then Buffy is equally de-powered. Not to mention that his 'watching her back' actually causes her to become a robot - even though he has no evil intentions. Which only proves the point that when whiny and distraught by his crush Spike is a no-good ally.

Don't be shy. If you hate Spike, if you adamantly refuse to see anything that he has ever done in anything except a negative light, just come right out and say so, objectivity be damned.

Just so you know, you're officially on the black list with Adopt-A-Bangel. Lock your doors at night. Don't answer the door unless you're certain of who's there. Start carrying a gun. Buy yourself a couple of pit bulldogs and keep them half insane with hunger and abuse.

But it's all to no avail. Get your affairs in order, because hell is coming to breakfast, and you're the main course.

Okay, now that that rant's out of my system, back to the real world.

Buffy has rescued just about every supporting character on the show multiple times. More than a few of them have been possessed by evil spirits at one time or another. She's died twice, the last time as a sacrifice to save her synthetic sister. At least two of her friends has tried to destroy the world as we know it. Her former lover not only tried to destroy the world twice, the second time at the cost of several hundred Slayers, a couple of thousand civilian, and military personnel, and she's unhesitatingly forgiven every single one of them, and I don't recall any of them being as belabored for their misdeeds as Spike has in this one post.

Just for the record, how can you blame Spike for his chip malfunctioning or being enthralled by the First Evil? And how is sacrificing himself so that everyone else could escape from the Ubervamp cavern in any way "slipping up?" And how is Spike in any way whatsoever responsible for Buffy having her identity switched with a robot.

Just out of curiosity, do you think that maybe Spike was the second rifleman on the grassy knoll and Jimmy Hoffa's killer?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Just for the record, how can you blame Spike for his chip malfunctioning or being enthralled by the First Evil?

Maybe she's using the same logic you have in the past when you've scoffed at people using the "Angel was under Twilights 'thrall'" excuse?

 

[The Chosen]

Wowza. Getting a little heated in here.

Anyway, Buffy and Spike would win, because Buffy's obviously involved. She has a tendency to overcome everything that's ever come her way -- even if it's hard, she always comes out on top at the end.

 

[white avenger]

Maybe she's using the same logic you have in the past when you've scoffed at people using the "Angel was under Twilights 'thrall'" excuse?

By his own admission, Angel voluntarily joined forces with Twilight, using the old familiar, "It was for the greater good," excuse. At least some of the things that he did were not done under Twilight's direct thrall. Angel did them, voluntarily, for whatever excuse he chose to give, primarily for the chance to play Adam to Buffy's Eve in a whole new universe.

As far as we know, Spike being enthralled by the First Evil was completely involuntary, occurring at a time when he was in shock from receiving his soul. And, yes, that is conjecture on my part, but it seems logical to me, and, I fully believe, quite a few other fans, not all of whom are Spuffy shippers.

Angel was fully cognizant of the majority of what he did for Twilight, and remembered most of it afterwards. Spike never knew, either during his spells or afterward, what he had done.

That's why I scoff at Angel's "Twilight made me do it" defense. Twilight never could have "made him do it" if Angel hadn't voluntarily joined with it in the first place.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

By his own admission, Angel voluntarily joined forces with Twilight, using the old familiar, "It was for the greater good," excuse. At least some of the things that he did were not done under Twilight's direct thrall. Angel did them, voluntarily, for whatever excuse he chose to give, primarily for the chance to play Adam to Buffy's Eve in a whole new universe.

As far as we know, Spike being enthralled by the First Evil was completely involuntary, occurring at a time when he was in shock from receiving his soul. And, yes, that is conjecture on my part, but it seems logical to me, and, I fully believe, quite a few other fans, not all of whom are Spuffy shippers.

Angel was fully cognizant of the majority of what he did for Twilight, and remembered most of it afterwards. Spike never knew, either during his spells or afterward, what he had done.

That's why I scoff at Angel's "Twilight made me do it" defense. Twilight never could have "made him do it" if Angel hadn't voluntarily joined with it in the first place.

I'm not saying Spike should be held account able for those murders, I've never held that as a mark against Spike (against Buffy yes, but not Spike), I'm just using it to point out the double standards in your argument. There are a lot of other factors in the Angel/Twilight scenario, yet those small factors only seem to matter when it's an issue for Spike.

 

[white avenger]

I'm not saying Spike should be held account able for those murders, I've never held that as a mark against Spike (against Buffy yes, but not Spike), I'm just using it to point out the double standards in your argument. There are a lot of other factors in the Angel/Twilight scenario, yet those small factors only seem to matter when it's an issue for Spike.

I'm not going to get into another debate about double standards as pertains to Angel and Spike, we've gone down that road so many times that even I'm getting tired of it.

Returning to the original question, Buffy and Spike vs Angel and Faith. Who wins? Team Buffy or Team Angel? I seem to recall that we pretty much agreed on the outcome, if not the details.