Buffy vs. Xander Argument - Selfless

[Joshua]

You guys remember the huge argument between Buffy & Xander in "Selfless" when Buffy told Xander she had to kill Anya (who was now Anyanka at the time) and Xander doesn't want Buffy to kill Anya because he loves her even though she killed several frat boys and the fact that she chose to be a demon again.

But back in season 2 when Angel was Angelus, Xander hated Angelus/Angel. Both Buffy & Xander were in the exact same situations. Both of their lovers are demons. Now my question is, do you think Xander was a hypocrite trying to excuse Anya's demonic massacre?

 

[InsaneMystic]

Xander thinks with his heart and guts, not with his head. This makes him a loyal friend, The Heart of the Core Four, and also the saviour of the world in "Grave"... but it also makes him a hypocritical and judgmental jerk at times.

Of course he was a major hypocrite in this scene, especially in light of the infamous "kick his ass" line three and a half years earlier (which, fittingly, finally got brought up... but didn't get to bite him in the butt enough, for my taste).

 

[zobothehobo]

I think Xander was being very hypocritical. And it really did piss me off a lot.

 

[Dagenspear]

Yes, he was. Xander's a dick like that. Always has been. Always will be. He'll never change.

 

[sosa lola]

At that moment, he was.

Yes, he was. Xander's a dick like that. Always has been. Always will be. He'll never change.

I disagree. Xander didn't really make the connection between how similar the situation in Selfless was with Becoming, but when Buffy reminded him, it was like the slap in the face he needed to change and grow up. And he did. Just watch how gradually objective he started to become when it came Spike.

In a later episode in S7, Anya and Dawn, Spike's previous friends, wanted Spike out of their lives/considered Spike a murderer, and when Anya wanted Xander to chime in with the Spike hate, Xander refused. He trusted Buffy's judgment and pushed his feelings for Spike aside to be a good friend.

 

[dan k]

It always agitates me when I see that scene and Buffy doesn't address Willow when she says she didn't say kick his ass. That would have made the scene so much more interesting to watch. Instead it just got ignored and I think the viewers missed out.

 

[sosa lola]

It always agitates me when I see that scene and Buffy doesn't address Willow when she says she didn't say kick his ass. That would have made the scene so much more interesting to watch. Instead it just got ignored and I think the viewers missed out.

I also wish they kept that discussion, but it would have been so much better if they'd dealt with it in S3 when the topic was still hot.

 

[Kean]

He was, but I don't believe he knew he was. I don't think Xander realised what he was saying until Buffy raged at him about what he said about Angel. I really don't think he ever connected the dots and thought "this is similar", in fact he even goes on to tell Buffy that the situation with Anya was "different".

And the reason it was different was because it was his heart and the person he loved. I don't think he ever got what Buffy was dealing with back then until that moment. Throughout Buffy and Angel's entire relationship Xander held a holier than thou, "Demon bad-Man Good" attitude and rarely tried to understand where Buffy was coming from and was really very hard on her. I think his relationship with Anya, and especially this period of it, really opened his eyes up to greyer realities of love and life. Particularly as a Scooby.

So yes, Xander was hypocritical, but it was naive, even delusional on his part, not malicious. He simply did not have the self awareness to know that he was facing down the realities that Buffy had three years. I really feel this scene (and the rest of that ep) deeply matured Xander.

 

[kittenpoker]

Interesting question, and I agree - as someone who "thinks with their heart" that it's really hard not to be hypocritical. 🙂

I think, a difference might be that angelus was targeting buffy's friends... but is that to say that a life is more valuable (objectively) because you know and are close to that person.. of course not but again that strikes at the heart "logic"....

So, yes, I think he was being hypocritical but not maliciously so.

 

[kndizzle]

Honestly, this is a HUGE moment in my opinion. It's totally glossed over in every season of Buffy... Then finally it's mentioned at a perfect time and as quickly it's forgotten. I'll say this instead of my big, stupid, fan girl rant about a subject I have thought way too much about:

Xander withheld vital information from Buffy in a very critical time. Although it was "the right thing to do" in his mind, it was still a betrayal of trust. He honestly believed he was right, but should have weighed Buffy's potential suffering and mental psyche rather than his black and white view of the world and his judge and jury approach about Angel. He was wrong, and caused his friend more harm than good by his blatant lie.

That being said, I agree with Kean that the moment in Selfless when it's acknowledged is probably the first time Xander ever realizes what it was that he did could have been anything but right. He finally got a glimpse of what Buffy lived through in sacrificing the person she loves for the good of others, and possibly even a comprehension of what his 3 little words - "Kick his ass." - really did. Yes, I absolutely do think he was a hypocrite. But it was unconsciously done, as it (unfortunately and infuriatingly) usually is.

 

[Ripper666]

What? huge argument? Ok they had a conflict but in my eyes Buffy was wrong because she hurried to much. She didn't even looked around for other options, it was like: Kill her, kill her, kill her. But they had been friends for so long. I was really shocked about her acting. I think she was feared of her experiences with Faith, firstly friend then enemy and she wanted to make it easier for her this time. Faster this time!
I accuse Xander because he never really tried to stop Buffy! I think he should have fight more for his ex-girlfriend, fight harder for a (human)life! Instead he just left the house when he saw that he can't convince Buffy to wait. In my eyes it wasn't such a big dispute! Xander should have tried to pull Buffy back, down to earth. But he didn't.

 

[SlayerFest]

His reaction to Buffy wanting to kill Anya annoyed me because of the conversation that they had in...yikes, can't remember the episode, but it was in season 2. When Xander says, "I think you want to forget all about Ms. Calendar's death so you can get your boyfriend back". It's such a ridiculous thing to say. And in Selfless, he's doing the same thing. I think Buffy even points out that Anya chose to become a demon again, Angel didn't know about the "one moment of true happiness" thing.

However, Xander's reaction makes sense. It would have been stupid if he had just said, "Yeah! Let's kill her." Obviously he was going to object. He was in love with her. I do love that when Buffy brings up the fact that she killed Angel, he shuts up. He kind of gets it. He still doesn't want Anya dead, but he realizes that he was being a tad hypocritical.

 

[Lurconis]

Not saying Xander wasn't somewhat hypocritical but there is a huge difference in situations.

Angelus was trying to destroy the world, the entire world was at stake. Anya wasn't, yes she was murdering multiple people, so do serial killers but the police still try to capture them alive.

 

[Dagenspear]

Not saying Xander wasn't somewhat hypocritical but there is a huge difference in situations.

Angelus was trying to destroy the world, the entire world was at stake. Anya wasn't, yes she was murdering multiple people, so do serial killers but the police still try to capture them alive.

Anya was a demon, not a human. And Xander wanted Angel dead before Acathla was even discovered.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Xander thinks with his heart and guts, not with his head. This makes him a loyal friend, The Heart of the Core Four, and also the saviour of the world in "Grave"... but it also makes him a hypocritical and judgmental jerk at times.

Of course he was a major hypocrite in this scene, especially in light of the infamous "kick his ass" line three and a half years earlier (which, fittingly, finally got brought up... but didn't get to bite him in the butt enough, for my taste).

I agree with IM... Even though I love Xander for his flaws, I do think the way he persecuted Angel but seemed so willing to forgive Anya was extremely hypocritical, and it was good of Buffy to bring up the whole "kick his ass" thing to remind him of that fact.
Xander was blinded by love with Anya, the same way Buffy was once upon a time with Angel. He was either not willing to see or too emotional to see the similiarities in the situations, which definitely made him a hypocrite.

 

[Ripper666]

So yes, Xander was hypocritical, but it was naive, even delusional on his part, not malicious. He simply did not have the self awareness to know that he was facing down the realities that Buffy had three years.

I agree with a lot of things you said, for example that Xander didn't connect the past with the present... but I still don't think that Buffy was totaly right in her decision. Ok, Buffy had more experiences but she had eperiences, for example Faith and Angel which changed her! In my eyes Xander was blind because of his ex-girlfriend and Buffy had to much fear, haunted by her own past! I was on Xanders side because I didn't like the thought of killing an old friend, a person who was everything for Xander and Buffy knew that! She wasn't able to kill Angel in the beginning because she had the hope that he will return good again. There nobody tried to kill Angel. But she teared Xanders hope and that wasn't alright. So I don't claim him for anything, I don't claim Buffy too, I think they needed a third person to lead them. Unfortunately there wasn't someone.

 

[Dagenspear]

I agree with a lot of things you said, for example that Xander didn't connect the past with the present... but I still don't think that Buffy was totaly right in her decision. Ok, Buffy had more experiences but she had eperiences, for example Faith and Angel which changed her! In my eyes Xander was blind because of his ex-girlfriend and Buffy had to much fear, haunted by her own past! I was on Xanders side because I didn't like the thought of killing an old friend, a person who was everything for Xander and Buffy knew that! She wasn't able to kill Angel in the beginning because she had the hope that he will return good again. There nobody tried to kill Angel. But she teared Xanders hope and that wasn't alright. So I don't claim him for anything, I don't claim Buffy too, I think they needed a third person to lead them. Unfortunately there wasn't someone.

Her friends feelings aren't more important than the lives of innocent people.

 

[EvilWillow]

I was on Xanders side because I didn't like the thought of killing an old friend, a person who was everything for Xander and Buffy knew that! She wasn't able to kill Angel in the beginning because she had the hope that he will return good again. There nobody tried to kill Angel.

First of all, if Anya was "everything" to Xander, he wouldnt have broken her heart in the worst way possible because of stupid little boy insecurities.

And actually, Giles tried to kill Angel and failed miserably. But he tried. It's totally understandable why it was hard for her to kill Angel, she loved him. Well, so she said anyways. 😀

 

[Ripper666]

It's totally understandable why it was hard for her to kill Angel, she loved him.

Good points. But I think we two would have a great discussion about Xander and his love towards Anja. I understand that you don't like Xander very much because of the "marriage", anyway I think he did it because he wanted to protect her from himself after his vision. He didn't want her to life the way his mother had to live! But this is stil another question but you said something interesting about Buffy and Angel:

It's totally understandable why it was hard for her to kill Angel, she loved him

Well so isn't it understandable that it was so hard for Xander to accept Anjas death? Because he loved her just as Buffy loved Angel? Or you can turn this the other way around: Because he loved her he didn't accepted her death and tried to stop Buffy. It doesn't matter in which way you look at this it's always the same. Xander loved Anja and if not, he wouldn't have tried to save her.

 

[BuffyElevated]

It always agitates me when I see that scene and Buffy doesn't address Willow when she says she didn't say kick his ass. That would have made the scene so much more interesting to watch. Instead it just got ignored and I think the viewers missed out.

I always took that moment as Buffy slyly letting Xander know that she knew Willow would never say that.