Buffys a killer

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I think in Season 3 Faith was a threat to Buffy.

To Buffy, Willow and Faith are obviously different. Buffy chooses Willow as a friend, were as Faith is an aquantance with Buffy through curcumstances. Faith is the slayer and so is Buffy, so you assume they should have a bond. Buffy has never met anyone like Faith before, she's a slayer with a dark side more visable than Buffy's. Faith needs more time than Buffy's other frineds, she has problems that Buffy can't relate to and because of that there is no conection between the two. To give Buffy her due, she does attempt to help Faith after Faith has killed her first human. But the conversation she has with Angel, while Faith is being tied up, is a key example that she can't understand, and therefore can't really help Faith with her dark side.

Maybe if Buffy had tried harder with Faith it wouldn't have led down the path it did and Faith wouldn't have turned to the Mayor for understanding. But Buffy didn't choose Faith as a friend. And probably to Buffy she had given all she wanted to save her sister slayer but now she was just past trying.

Faith hit Buffy were it hurt....Angel. Faith had no miss givings about shooting an arrow through Angel that she knew would kill him slowly and painfully. To me, that's a clear 'come get me!' kind of message. I know if someone had hurt someone I loved I wouldn't be sitting around planning how to save the world, I'd be wanting to get rid of the threat.

I know Buffy is the slayer, but she's also human. As the slayer she isn't allowed to concern herself with her friends and loved ones but she went to Faith to kill her for Angel. She chose her human side over her slayer side, showing that even though there is darkness in her, unlike Faith she doesn't always listen to it. If Faith hadn't shot Angel do you really think she would have gone after her?.....I think she would have waited for Faith to bring the fight to her...not the other way around.
 
"I know Buffy is the slayer, but she's also human. As the slayer she isn't allowed to concern herself with her friends and loved ones but she went to Faith to kill her for Angel. She chose her human side over her slayer side, showing that even though there is darkness in her, unlike Faith she doesn't always listen to it."

Erm... I'm confused. Surely picking a vendetta over her mission proves that she can listen to that darkness when she wants?

I do agree about provoking Buffy by shooting Angel. I've often wondered was it just a plot hole that Faith used a poison to which she was 50% of all the antidote, or was it supposed to be something more. It was a bit stupid on her part, if it was... But even if it was just a glaring oversight on her (and the Mayors) part, yeah, I think she must have known on some level that it wasn't gonna go unanswered.
 
Jill Valentine, about the whole Graduation - Buffy killing Faith discussion:


As stated Buffy had tried to help Faith, make her a part of her life, but Faith rejected this partly because she was jealous of the life and "career" that Buffy had. Buffy had a family and friends, and she was more of a Slayer than Faith could ever be. This made Faith seek out a support system, the Mayor, while giving into the darker side of the Slayer, the evil part.

Faith had killed innocents, innocents, plural, more than one. Thats a reason enough for Buffy to take her out, why? Because no prison or anything could hold her. She was a superpowered psycho and Buffy knew that she would hurt more people. Is Buffy justified in killing Faith, yes, because Buffy was given power and with that power, she is to protect the world, and Faith was something that the world needed to be protected from!

Erm... I'm confused. Surely picking a vendetta over her mission proves that she can listen to that darkness when she wants?
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Some part of Buffy did try to kill Faith just for revenge, but do you think thats the only reason? Maybe this way the PTB way of indicating that Angel was to do more good than Faith! In my opinion, the world would be a lot better with Angel because hes a true champion, Faith isn't. Granted she was given the title and power of the Slayer, she didn't carry that mantle too well. Not only was she not at optimal performance even when she was good, but she fell to the dark side.

P.S./OT: Whats with everyone ranting about how well Faith fought in Chosen. I didn't see anything impressive, while Buffy stood up to a lot more and I don't think Faith could do the whole "jumping across buildings" things like Buffy.
 
Some good points. You aren't a big sister by any chance, are you? 😀


"As stated Buffy had tried to help Faith, make her a part of her life, but Faith rejected this partly because she was jealous of the life and "career" that Buffy had. Buffy had a family and friends, and she was more of a Slayer than Faith could ever be. This made Faith seek out a support system, the Mayor, while giving into the darker side of the Slayer, the evil part."


Maybe this way the PTB way of indicating that Angel was to do more good than Faith! In my opinion, the world would be a lot better with Angel because hes a true champion, Faith isn't. Granted she was given the title and power of the Slayer, she didn't carry that mantle too well. Not only was she not at optimal performance even when she was good, but she fell to the dark side."

I maintain that Buffy did not do everytihng she could have done to help Faith, and my jaw dropped when Buffy claimed to have done so in Sanctuary. Buffy deluded herself that Faith was okay at the end of nearly every single Faithisode, when my bloody Tamagotchi could have seen that clearly, she wasn't. And since said Tamagotchi is currently trapped down the back of the couch, that's a strong statement. Buffy didn't know how to deal with Faith's problems so she pretended they weren't there.

Faith, whether Buffy will ever admit it or not, is a hero, or at least wants to be. Slayers don't just have their frustrating-to-google names picked out of a hat. From about 1.5 billion other possible candidates, the Universe picked Faith to be the one and only. That at least, says somehing about her. Before she met Buffy she was wrasslin' gators to save preachers, and taking on animals like Kakistos. It took all of....what?... 24 hours? ...with Buffy's support system and opportunites for Faith to do something heroic at her own cost. She turned her back on freely partying her life away in Hawaii or wherever with Sarah Michelle Gellar's body because some total strangers in a church might have been under vampire attack.

"Some part of Buffy did try to kill Faith just for revenge, but do you think thats the only reason? "

It was the primary reason, that's enough. That's what makes her not only a killer, but a murderer. If she was really so worried about what Faith was doing she could have confronted her sooner, or she could have tranqued her, or hell, she could have shot her and gotten it done. Messy and mean, but Jack Bauer would have approved. She does none of those things. Xander's concern about losing her was justified. She was certainly lost to me. From that point on, my regard for Faith only grew, as my regard for Buffy plummeted (Hitting an all time low in S7) By the time B!tchy Summers shows up to hit Angel a lot in Sanctuary, is there any doubt that Buffy's hatred stems from something personal rather than rational?


"P.S./OT: Whats with everyone ranting about how well Faith fought in Chosen. I didn't see anything impressive, while Buffy stood up to a lot more and I don't think Faith could do the whole "jumping across buildings" things like Buffy."
It's Buffy's name on the Ad-ends, so she's gonna get the more impressive fight scenes. And the running across buildings thing had me in stitches. Apparently a sword through the gut only makes Buffy more aerodynamic...
 
Jill_Valentine said:
Some good points. You aren't a big sister by any chance, are you? 😀


"As stated Buffy had tried to help Faith, make her a part of her life, but Faith rejected this partly because she was jealous of the life and "career" that Buffy had. Buffy had a family and friends, and she was more of a Slayer than Faith could ever be. This made Faith seek out a support system, the Mayor, while giving into the darker side of the Slayer, the evil part."


Maybe this way the PTB way of indicating that Angel was to do more good than Faith! In my opinion, the world would be a lot better with Angel because hes a true champion, Faith isn't. Granted she was given the title and power of the Slayer, she didn't carry that mantle too well. Not only was she not at optimal performance even when she was good, but she fell to the dark side."
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Angel is a true champion? Angel?

By the way, I believe that in the end, Faith did a marvelous job of carrying the mantle of Slayer.
 
LadyLavinia said:
Angel is a true champion? Angel?

By the way, I believe that in the end, Faith did a marvelous job of carrying the mantle of Slayer.
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Uh... I agree with you. I'm a big Faith fan, and I consider her easily Buffy and Angel's equal or better as a hero. I'd certainly rather follow her than Buffy "No concept of Life/ Death" Summers. I didn't make it very clear, but the stuff in inverted comma's was quoting Original Slayer's points to contest them, rather than points I agreed with.
 
Jenny said:
All of Buffy's killings were to save the world from evil. She did what she had to do. Willows' murder (yes murder) of Warren was strictly out of vengeance, there was no NEED to do it. Buffy's constantly talking about how she doesn't kill humans, there have been several cases where it seemed like someone deserved to die. However, a human is capable of retribution and reform. Only when the world was at risk (or her friends/family - think Dawn being threatened by the Knights) did she kill a non-demon.

Totally agree that Caleb wasn't human either, but part demon (the First).
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I agree with all that! :: teeth :
 
Angel is a true champion? Angel?

By the way, I believe that in the end, Faith did a marvelous job of carrying the mantle of Slayer.
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Duh Angel is a champion. He had so much will and courage to do the things he did, more than Spike could ever have done. Spike may have given up his life (and only once) to save the world, but Angel gave up true happiness, plenty of times, to save the world. And thats more than Spike could ever do.

Faith did a good job of carrying the slayer mantle? Say what? Didn't she used to ummm like to kill people? Yeah she did. Not for saving the world, like Buffy Summers, but she did it for fun! Faith may have reformed at the end, but she could never live up to the things Buffy has done. Never. Buffys a million times better, in every facet, than little Ms. Faith. Not only is she not as strong, good of a fighter, or as good of a Slayer, but she doesn't have the heart or compassion that Buffy does. Buffy is the true Slayer, one girl filled not only with strength and skill, but utter love and compassion. Faith probably wouldn't kill herself to save the world, and she probably couldn't kill her true love to save it either. Buffy is it, point blank.

Uh... I agree with you. I'm a big Faith fan, and I consider her easily Buffy and Angel's equal or better as a hero. I'd certainly rather follow her than Buffy "No concept of Life/ Death" Summers. I didn't make it very clear, but the stuff in inverted comma's was quoting Original Slayer's points to contest them, rather than points I agreed with.
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No way could Faith be equal or greater than them. Read my first paragraph. They have given up soooo much, and fought so well and bravely. And Faith hasn't.

"No Concept of Life and Death"... Considering shes the only person to ever been pulled out of Paradise (maybe with the exception of Cordelia), I think she pretty much has a good understanding of death, since shes ya know, died twice. Better than Faith, obviously, only alive because she was in jail for a long time. I mean you really think she would have lasted for those years in jail, not getting killed. C'mon now, shes no Buffy. Glory or Caleb or Adam would have taken her out.

See where I'm coming from is this -- Buffy is the true Slayer. Probably the purest of Slayers. She was brought back twice, and why would the PTB bring her back if she wasn't important, theres no record of them ever doing that before. Shes probably faced more Apocalypses than any other Slayer and shes was the only one to kill the Master (And Faith wouldn't have been able to kill Kakistos without Buffy, because Buffy handled him, while Faith got pummeled, except when he smacked her to the side, but she did rough him up) and shes probably the only Slayer to ever face a god! Plus, why was she the Chosen One that found the Scythe? Why wasn't it destined for Faith to get it? Because Buffy is the ONE and only. Faith has the power and so do the other scythe-activated potentials, but Buffy is it. The one and only.
 
No, she's not. As far as the PTB are concerned, Buffy is dead. She died at the age of 16 at the hands of the Master, in a sunken church. End of Story. The Slayer line now runs with Faith. She, and not Buffy, is the PTB's one and only, or would be, circumstances notwithstanding. I could have (And have before) argued that if Buffy was properly gone by the time Faith picked up the baton, she could have had a chance from the start.

The only reason Buffy has come back to life twice (or three times, arguably) was because of her friends, something the PTB didn't foresee and Faith does not have the luxury of. Faith wouldn't kill herself to save the world? If memory serves, she was happy to kill herself to save Angel. We've never seen her tested against the likes of Glory "“ we don't know how she'd perform given the back up Buffy got.

I'm of the opinion that it's a far harder thing to drag yourself back to sea level, and in Faith's case, actually seek to do something heroic, than it is maintain an average. I'm not saying that's easy either, I just think Faith's had a harder road. Buffy has her friends and family to fight for. What exactly is Faith's incentive to do good? How well the world has treated her? Her nurturing upbringing? All those people who care about her? Nah. If Faith died tomorrow, they'd be hard pressed to get enough people at the funeral to be pallbearers. She risks whatever she has for the grand privilege of Buffy not fulfilling her threat to beat her to death. That she's trying so hard, or trying at all, given that she's treated more or less the same either way, is what's heroic... You cannot say that she'll never be Buffy's equal because of what she's done before, it misses the whole point of Faith's character arc, and everything ATS stands for. She's Wolverine or Elektra, she's The Bride, she's Riddick: She's a killer who chose to be a hero, for somebody else.

And what people continually forget is... Faith never killed anybody for fun. She apparently enjoyed it, but she DID NOT kill for fun. She killed them "˜cause her Daddy told her to. And she does have a heart. She's tried very, very hard to pretend she doesn't, but its there, and it's been what's driven her from the start, to her cost.

"No Concept of Life and Death"... Considering shes the only person to ever been pulled out of Paradise (maybe with the exception of Cordelia), I think she pretty much has a good understanding of death, since shes ya know, died twice. Better than Faith, obviously, only alive because she was in jail for a long time. I mean you really think she would have lasted for those years in jail, not getting killed. C'mon now, shes no Buffy. Glory or Caleb or Adam would have taken her out.
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That's exactly my point. Exactly. Buffy's died more than once, it doesn't mean anything to her anymore. After she came back the second time she genuinely doesn't seem to appreciate the value of life. She spends Potentials' lives on suicidal, badly planned missions. She refuses to consider other people's points of view, when it's their lives in the balance. She takes insane risks. Which is fine, if, like Buffy, you're reasonably sure Paradise is waiting for you at the end of it. Faith understands that the Potentials need to take the time to live life, even if only for a few hours at the Bronze, because they probably don't have much of their lives left. Buffy would have understood that once. Even Angel does.
 
I don't get why people are always debating who's the best slayer of Faith and Buffy. Noone will ever agree about it!
Faith was the slayer that went bad, if she hadn't, who knows what she'd be like. Buffy was the slayer that almost went bad, but got out before it was too late, maybe cos she had friends who cared about her, and Faith didn't. Only if they had grown up the same way, and both of them had the same kind of friends, the same lives, then it would be possible to compare them, but their lives have been too different, and they are too different.
 
Jill_Valentine said:
That's exactly my point. Exactly. Buffy's died more than once, it doesn't mean anything to her anymore. After she came back the second time she genuinely doesn't seem to appreciate the value of life. She spends Potentials' lives on suicidal, badly planned missions. She refuses to consider other people's points of view, when it's their lives in the balance. She takes insane risks. Which is fine, if, like Buffy, you're reasonably sure Paradise is waiting for you at the end of it. Faith understands that the Potentials need to take the time to live life, even if only for a few hours at the Bronze, because they probably don't have much of their lives left. Buffy would have understood that once. Even Angel does.
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You must be confused, because at the end of Season 6, she wants to live and she has a reason to live, to show Dawn the world. At the beginning, yeah she didn't appreciate life, because she'd been to heaven, but she got over that, and I think underappreciating life is a lot better than killing people.

After watching Touched and End of Days, its apparent that a lot, and I mean a lot of Potentials died in the blast that Faith dragged them into. By my count, only Molly and some unnamed Potential died in the battle at the Vineyard. Isane risks? Well Faith got more Potentials killed in one mission that Buffy did for months, so Buffy wins, again

Plus while Faith was sitting around planning a faulty plan and leading the Potentials into it, Buffy was facing off with Caleb and finding the Scythe. So I think their pretty equal (or Buffy still even better than Faith)on the risky missions, since before that incident in Dirty Girls, Buffy never really got anyone killed in the line of fire.

Buffy was trying to train them, not take them clubbing. I guess Faith wouldn't understand the concept of training since ya know, she didn't have any visable training or good martial arts skills ('Nother for the Buffy!)

Ohh and about your point that the PTB don't recognize Buffy, the why does she still get the prophecies, why did Caleb and the First refer to her as the true Slayer and why did she find the scythe? Ohh yeah, because shes the real Slayer and Faith's just a phony with the power.
 
Cordelia said:
Wow...I just read that...you need to write a book on your Buffy theories.
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No problem. Wanna publish it? First thing I need is an advance for a new computer? 🙂
 
Lol...maybe if we all went in on a joint venture....I have a couple of books on Buffy that are collections of essays...we could compile BB written essays or something...but now I'm going off topic...
 
nerd4hire said:
You guy's might enjoy this one:

Who's THE Slayer
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Why is it so important that Buffy be the one who is The Slayer? Why is it so important that anyone assume that identity?

What is so important about that identity? There is so much more to Buffy, Faith or any other Slayer than being The Slayer. The Slayer is simply a coat . . . an image, a tool forged by sorcerers who didn't have the guts to face demons and monsters on their own. Instead they had to forge a tool - a girl fused with demonic essence, to do their fighting for them and ensure that a a Slayer will be around to do so, for all of time. They also made sure there would be one girl at a time - in order for them and any future man or Watcher to maintain control of the Slayer line.

But Buffy or Faith should not revolve their lives around being the Slayer, or their identity. There is so much more to both young women or any other Slayer - past, present and future.
 
Writing Faith off as a "phony with the power" is an oversimplification of what it is to be heroic. How was going after Calebs armory, any worse than charging into his base of operations underarmed and funnelled down stairs into a vinyard basement? Buffy, for all her talk of strategy and planning, committed tactical suicide, by leading a large undisciplined force into what a soldier would call a killzone, when she knew nothing about her enemy except that by God, he'd stolen her stapler. Nobody takes Buffy's stuff and gets away with it. Seriously, at least the Master's followers and Evil Angel had to work to draw Buffy into their traps... Faith's strategy, attacking his... I guess infrastructure?... was a good idea, but badly executed... she was trying to attack something solid, which Buffy was not. That Buffy was vindicated by the plot was fine, but I would have liked the writers to make it a little more convincing...


Crikey N4h, that's a terrific theory, and rather well argued.

My only real comebacks being the following. I consider S7 an absolute continuity write off for various reasons. I sometimes tell myself it's fan fiction... The other main one being the tired old slayer-line-through-Faith chestnut from Joss at the San Diego con and the zap2it interview, and his comparison of slayers to batteries, which pre date Noxon's quote on the subject. The third, and even shakier one is the Council.

The Council, though their intentions are good I guess, are b*stards. If killing and resuscitating a Slayer created a new Slayer every time, I have no doubt they'd keep doing it.

To my mind, the two main reasons the focus remains on Buffy as The Slayer are 1) It's her show, and 2) Bloody Tru Davies... the reason Faith spent an episode recovering from the bomb blast was because Dushku was busy filming. Her notable absences, both from her intended scene in Restless and when Sunnydale was so desperate for a slayer it had a bloody robot protecting it, were for similar reasons

Everybody refers to Buffy as The Slayer because she's the one doing all the Slayery work, while Faith was busy breaking rocks or whatever she was up to in prison that I'd rather not contemplate in detail. But if the PTB really did consider her the one and the only, and Faith an abomination, why didn't they find a way to halt the automatic transfer of powers to somebody the rate so poorly?

The Buffy/ Faith fan divide will never, ever be resolved. It's a debate that goes the whole way back to the aptly referenced Cain and Abel, and Sumerian myth before that, and thousands of years worth of biblical scholars have yet to resolve that one...
 
Duh Angel is a champion. He had so much will and courage to do the things he did, more than Spike could ever have done.


Thanks to the cursed soul enforced upon him by Romanian gypsies, and later, Willow. You have to ask youself, was he capable of doing those things, without the use of an external force?

I wonder if Buffy or Faith ever bothered to contemplate that fact, whenever they start mooning over how "good" he is.
 
It doesn't matter whether he wanted a soul or not, it matters what he did with the soul.

This is extremely off topic but still:

Spike did some good, sure, he wow saved the amulet meant to be wielded by Angel. We know this because the First tried to kill Angel because Angel would destroy his army. But ohh look, lil' ole Spike goes and gets a soul (And gettin' a soul for a girl doesn't make him better than someone who had it forced on him).

So your saying that if someone has something forced on them, they can do as good as someone who wanted it? Well heres an example:

Person #1 wants a baby, Person #2 doesn't. So Person #1 plans out the pregnancy and gets the baby. Person #2 doesn't use protection and they are forced into having the baby. Now Person #2 can do just as good of a job if not better.

Yes, Angelus was a lot more evil than Spike as unsouled vampires. And Spike was actually pretty good for a unsouled vampire. But its kinda like opposites at each end. Angelus was a horrible vampire and hes one of the greatest champions. Whereas Spike was a so so evil vampire and hes a so so champion.
 
Original Slayer said:
It doesn't matter whether he wanted a soul or not, it matters what he did with the soul.

This is extremely off topic but still:

Spike did some good, sure, he wow saved the amulet meant to be wielded by Angel. We know this because the First tried to kill Angel because Angel would destroy his army. But ohh look, lil' ole Spike goes and gets a soul (And gettin' a soul for a girl doesn't make him better than someone who had it forced on him).

So your saying that if someone has something forced on them, they can do as good as someone who wanted it? Well heres an example:

Person #1 wants a baby, Person #2 doesn't. So Person #1 plans out the pregnancy and gets the baby. Person #2 doesn't use protection and they are forced into having the baby. Now Person #2 can do just as good of a job if not better.

Yes, Angelus was a lot more evil than Spike as unsouled vampires. And Spike was actually pretty good for a unsouled vampire. But its kinda like opposites at each end. Angelus was a horrible vampire and hes one of the greatest champions. Whereas Spike was a so so evil vampire and hes a so so champion.
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It matters to me whether or not he wanted the soul. And that is why I tend to disregard Angel's "good" deeds as a souled vampire. He never had the ability to feel remorse, while soulless . . . or feel compassion toward another. He never had a desire to seek a soul for whatever reason. Every good deed he had committed, was due to a cursed soul that was forced upon him. It seemed as if his life as a souled vampire was a lie.

And both Faith and Buffy seemed incapable of understanding that. It goes to show that both Slayers still have not fully matured. And incapable of facing what Angel is really like. And to be honest, they are also aware of certain acts he had committed, while as a souled vampire. They seemed more willing to face each other's flaws, than Angel's.
 
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