Buffys ( as in two ) the vampire slayers?

[EVIL UU]

Due to monks' spell Buffy in season 5 has completely different memories, hence a different personality and even different abilities, like spell casting. Buffy from seasons 1-4 and Buffy from seasons 5-7 are different people that only happen to live in the same body and the show has actually two leads. Why don't we treat them as two different characters? The real Buffy seized to exist the moment Dawn was created, poof, gone. Why aren't fans more vocal about getting the original character back thus getting rid off the brainwashed-into-existence substitute?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Due to monks' spell Buffy in season 5 has completely different memories, hence a different personality and even different abilities, like spell casting. Buffy from seasons 1-4 and Buffy from seasons 5-7 are different people that only happen to live in the same body and the show has actually two leads. Why don't we treat them as two different characters? The real Buffy seized to exist the moment Dawn was created, poof, gone. Why aren't fans more vocal about getting the original character back thus getting rid off the brainwashed-into-existence substitute?

Well I dont agree with that assessment (fully), which is why I wouldn't be vocal about it.

I think Buffy does have different priorities, but I dont think that means it's a different personality.
Like how she wouldn't sacrifice Dawn, I dont think that was just becasue they put Dawn into Buffys life, they didn't create extra "protectiveness" over Dawn, they made Dawn her sister so that protectiveness is instinctual rather than the protectiveness being magical.
I also think Buffy not wanting to sacrifice Dawn when she would sacrifice Angel years earlier, is also because she had sacrificed Angel years earlier and she had lost her mother - she was sicking of having to be the one that sacrifices.
I've always flirted with the idea there was a connection between Joyces brain tumor and the monks- just how both are brain/mind related, and with Joyces death Dawn becomes Buffy closest family. But I dont think they changed Buffys personality beyond natural protectiveness.

I also dont think she has extra abilities - what spells does she cast?
The only one I can think of is the meditation in season 5 - and I dont think that has anything to do with the monks. The series suggests anyone can do spells, but some people are better at it, for example Willow is a powerful witch, Xander is not, yet :

Riley Finn: These spells, these really work? I mean, can you really "turn your enemies inside out"? Or "learn to excrete gold coins"?

Anya: That one's not so much fun.

Willow Rosenberg: They work, Riley. But they take concentration, being attuned with the forces of the universe.

Xander Harris: Right. You can't just go "librum incendere" and expect...

[Xander's book bursts into flames and he slams it shut, extinguishing it]

In season 5, Willow creates Fire and it's a big deal. The spell Buffy does doesn't seem that complicated.

 

[Blaze]

They might have different personalities, different memories, but all that is an illusion built up by her brain. She's not the same as before but she also isn't a different person that lives in the same body. Buffy is still Buffy, just as she would still be Buffy after a trauma, or after an accident, whether she gets brain damaged or she ends up in a wheelchair, Buffy will always be Buffy no matter how different she becomes.

Plus, the monks implanting new memories really didn't change Buffy's personality that much, she is still very much the Buffy that everyone loves. Plus, by your theory, all the Scoobies are not who they were, and everyone that has ever come in contact with Dawn are completely changed from who they used to be, I don't believe that to be the case, but of course that's just my opinion.

 

[Kean]

Thinking about it in those terms may actually be a way for me to not be desperately disappointed with who Buffy becomes after S4.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Blaze,
it isn't just your opinion. Buffy and the others had their memories altered.

Evil UU,
saying Buffy had a new personality and new abilities isn't how I remember it.
You state Buffy could do spell casting, does that refer to Buffy seeing the truth of what was happening? If so, it was Willow who told her how to do that.

 

[white avenger]

Black Eye Guy agrees: It does help to explain Spike and Buffy as brain damage!


Do we REALLY want to go there again? It's a pretty day, I'm on the lake with my lady, we come in after a nice dinner, I check my e-mail, decide to buzz by the Boards just to see who's around, and the Bangel Brigade is trying to disparage poor ol' long suffering Spike.

Let's declare a truce, just for this one weekend, and I promise, I'll rip you all a whole new set of orifices next week.

 

[Blaze]

Blaze,
it isn't just your opinion. Buffy and the others had their memories altered.

Oh I agree and know that it was a fact that they all got their memories altered, what I was saying is that I disagree that it means that they were entirely different people, which is where the topic becomes subjective, hence why I said imo.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Black Eye Guy agrees: It does help to explain Spike and Buffy as brain damage!


Do we REALLY want to go there again? It's a pretty day, I'm on the lake with my lady, we come in after a nice dinner, I check my e-mail, decide to buzz by the Boards just to see who's around, and the Bangel Brigade is trying to disparage poor ol' long suffering Spike.

Let's declare a truce, just for this one weekend, and I promise, I'll rip you all a whole new set of orifices next week.

lol it was a joke I made on a karma to Kean, put down your spear and "I love Spike" t-shirt, if I spent my time replying to all comments you made about Angel I would never have time to reply to anything else,

It doesn't even reflect my opinion, which I laid out in my post. But no, I agree, take the weekend and relax having to defend any and all points made against Spike, even jokes, must be exhausting 😀

 

[white avenger]

lol it was a joke I made on a karma to Kean, put down your spear and "I love Spike" t-shirt, if I spent my time replying to all comments you made about Angel I would never have time to reply to anything else,

It doesn't even reflect my opinion, which I laid out in my post. But no, I agree, take the weekend and relax having to defend any and all points made against Spike, even jokes, must be exhausting 😀

My comment, also, was a joke, all except the weekend at the lake part, and, just for the record, defending Spike is never exhausting. It does get exasperating sometimes, tough.

 

[The Bronze]

This is possibly the thing I find most irritating about the show. I was eventually going to get round to starting a similar sort of thread (so this fan hasn't been more vocal mainly through laziness / slowness).

Anyway I'm no expert in what defines a person but I think that spell is close enough to making Buffy a new person. A big part of people's personalities are defined by their relationship with siblings. Buffy Season 1-4 is an only child, it's a part of her and it's even mentioned by Joyce when Faith first arrives in Sunnydale. Something along the lines of "good thing you were an only child". Buffy's relationship with her parents is based on just the 3 of them.

When the monks made Dawn they changed over half of Buffy's life experience and up bringing. She now thinks and behaves like an older sibling. Sure it makes her protective of Dawn but it changes your whole outlook as well.

I don't think this necessarily carries over to the other characters in the same way. It changes their memories and will have changed their interactions with Buffy but it doesn't fundamentally change who they are because it doesn't affect the way they were raised.

I don't mind Dawn's character (bit whiney to begin with) and I'm fine with the team wanting to switch up Buffy's priorities a bit. But the way they did it meant that we didn't get to see Buffy grow to accept a new role we just saw her old character over-writen so it seems like she always had the role to begin with.

 

[thetopher]

By this logic then Wesley, Gunn, Lorne, and Fred are all completly different characters in S5 of Angel after that spell is cast on them to remove Conner from their memories.

Try telling me that Conner didn't affect Wesley more than Dawn affected Buffy, Wesley in S3 and 4 has changed so much. Buffy in S4 and 5 really hardly changes alt all. Only her priorities do.

Basically calling Buffy two different characters makes very little sense, by any logic.

 

[white avenger]

Thinking back on the original question, I'm inclined to think, why the heck not? We have Angelus and Angel, Cordelia (Sunnydale) and Cordy (L A), Wesley (Sunnydale) and Wes (L A), Willow and Dark Willow (Plus even Vamp Willow, if you count the Wishverse), Fred and Illyria, Street Punk Gunn and Super Lawyer Gunn, Spike(us) and Spike, Criminal Mastermind Andrew and Jar Jar Binks Andrew, Librarian Giles and Watcher Giles, Teacher jenny and Gypsy Jenny, Geek Xander and Carpenter Xander, and almost all of the changes started about the time that Dawn popped into existance. Why should Buffy be the only one to be stuck with just one little ol' personality?

For that matter, maybe the whole Buffyverse split into two completely different realities, and we just followed the one with all the changes for four years on TV and going into 3 more Seasons in the comics. That would settle a whole lot of issues, not the least of which is who Buffy REALLY belongs with.

No more Buffyverse, now we've got the Bangleverse and the Spuffyverse, separate and equal realities (or actually fantasies). Who knows, maybe there's also a Brileyverse, a Fuffyverse, a Banderverse, and just about any other sort of 'verse you could imagine.

Now if we can just get the Bangels to accept the fact that we're actually in the Spuffyverse...

 

[thetopher]

There certainly is a Fuffyverse, and its a beautiful, beautiful place. 😀

*sigh* and I suppose there's a Spuffyverse as well. There, that's my good deed for the day done. 🙂

In all seriousness dividing characters like this (excepting echaracters that are influenced in a major way like Angel/Angelus, Fred/Illyria instead of growing developing over time, like Spike, Faith or Wesley.) deprives all of the characters of their rich complexities. Fans can focus on aspects of the characters they love, but that doesn't mean any of the other aspects just disappear.

Still, an interesting point on the nature of fan fantasies, we all have them. 🙂

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I can see slayer Barbie along with all the other Barbies such as:

They really are all the same person.

 

[The Bronze]

By this logic then Wesley, Gunn, Lorne, and Fred are all completly different characters in S5 of Angel after that spell is cast on them to remove Conner from their memories.

Try telling me that Conner didn't affect Wesley more than Dawn affected Buffy, Wesley in S3 and 4 has changed so much. Buffy in S4 and 5 really hardly changes alt all. Only her priorities do.

Basically calling Buffy two different characters makes very little sense, by any logic.

I think it makes perfect sense. What Angel does to his team is pretty disgusting. Our experiences and memories shape who we are. It's not everything but it's a massive part of us. Once you start altering people's memories you're changing that person. They become little more than puppets.

As for whether they become completely different characters is up for debate. I'd suggest that after Angel violates the minds of all of his friends they revert to a previous state. The same people as they were a few years previously (give or take).

With Buffy the monks attacked her memories from the age of 5. Just think about that. It's a fundamental difference to be raised as an older sibling from the age of 5 as opposed to an only child. I think that makes Buffy post Season 4 a different person.

 

[thetopher]

I think it makes perfect sense. What Angel does to his team is pretty disgusting. Our experiences and memories shape who we are. It's not everything but it's a massive part of us. Once you start altering people's memories you're changing that person. They become little more than puppets.

As for whether they become completely different characters is up for debate. I'd suggest that after Angel violates the minds of all of his friends they revert to a previous state. The same people as they were a few years previously (give or take).

With Buffy the monks attacked her memories from the age of 5. Just think about that. It's a fundamental difference to be raised as an older sibling from the age of 5 as opposed to an only child. I think that makes Buffy post Season 4 a different person.

But Fred, Lorne and Gunn aren't noticably any different are they? Gunn only changes when he lets W&H mess with his mind, not before (presumably because he still feels like 'just the muscle' of the group- which isn't a reversion of character at all, that's his S4 'arc'.). Wesley changes the most, but for the better. He's still attracted to Fred, Fred still reciprocates, even if they have no memory of Conner.

I agree in principal that are memories make us partly who we are, but that's not everything. Look at 'Tabula Rasa' for an example, without any memories Willow and Tara are still attracted to each other, Giles and Anya still irritate each other, Buffy and Dawn still have that sibling bond. Even Buffy and Spike have a connection 🙂rolleyes🙂.
Even with no memories they're basically the same people with similar relationships, I'm not saying that life is like this nessessarily, only what the series show us.

Show me how the characters Angel 'violates' change in any meaningful way, they have all still decided to join W&H even before Angel agreed and that spell was performed. They haven't reverted- look at 'Spin The Bottle' for actual character reversion.

Also, show me how the monks 'violating' Buffy changed her character adversely at all, apart from her being irritated by her little sister.

 

[janas]

Once you start altering people's memories you're changing that person. They become little more than puppets.

Cyvus Vail has eliminated only the memory of Connor, not free will. I don't see how they could be puppets.

...however

Show me how the characters Angel 'violates' change in any meaningful way...

if you have no memory of your past mistakes (and I'm referring to Wesley), you're bound to repeat them, and this isn't good.

 

[The Bronze]

Cyvus Vail has eliminated only the memory of Connor, not free will. I don't see how they could be puppets.

Connor was a huge part of their lives. To remove the memory of Connor he made the events and decision of the past year or 2 become a blur. When the memories are returned to Wes you can see how much was removed.

But Fred, Lorne and Gunn aren't noticably any different are they? Gunn only changes when he lets W&H mess with his mind, not before (presumably because he still feels like 'just the muscle' of the group- which isn't a reversion of character at all, that's his S4 'arc'.). Wesley changes the most, but for the better. He's still attracted to Fred, Fred still reciprocates, even if they have no memory of Conner.

I agree in principal that are memories make us partly who we are, but that's not everything. Look at 'Tabula Rasa' for an example, without any memories Willow and Tara are still attracted to each other, Giles and Anya still irritate each other, Buffy and Dawn still have that sibling bond. Even Buffy and Spike have a connection 🙂rolleyes🙂.
Even with no memories they're basically the same people with similar relationships, I'm not saying that life is like this nessessarily, only what the series show us.

Show me how the characters Angel 'violates' change in any meaningful way, they have all still decided to join W&H even before Angel agreed and that spell was performed. They haven't reverted- look at 'Spin The Bottle' for actual character reversion.

Also, show me how the monks 'violating' Buffy changed her character adversely at all, apart from her being irritated by her little sister.

It comes down to the nature v nurture argument about what makes us who we are. I think it's fair to say that they both play a part. So by altering people's memories you are affecting the "nurture" part of their personality, Buffy in particular due to her age. The effects of this would be different for everyone.

The character's in Angel forget a few years worth of misery. Wes in particular lost the memory of taking Connor and Angel trying to suffocate him. That's massive. Positive or negative doesn't really come into it, he never got the option to decide for himself.

The adverse change in Buffy all comes down to your perspective. She changed from an only child to a big sister and essentially a mother. It skewed her whole view of the world. Again it's not whether she came out better or worse it's that she was changed without having a choice. I personally think what the Monks did to Buffy is about the worst attack she has been subjected to and it's made worse by the fact she can't remember life before their attack. Just think how much would you like to have your childhood and family altered on someone else's whim? I wouldn't like to have another sibling forced into my memory, erasing all of my past and changing my outlook on the future.

 

[thetopher]

Connor was a huge part of their lives. To remove the memory of Connor he made the events and decision of the past year or 2 become a blur. When the memories are returned to Wes you can see how much was removed.



It comes down to the nature v nurture argument about what makes us who we are. I think it's fair to say that they both play a part. So by altering people's memories you are affecting the "nurture" part of their personality, Buffy in particular due to her age. The effects of this would be different for everyone.

The character's in Angel forget a few years worth of misery. Wes in particular lost the memory of taking Connor and Angel trying to suffocate him. That's massive. Positive or negative doesn't really come into it, he never got the option to decide for himself.

The adverse change in Buffy all comes down to your perspective. She changed from an only child to a big sister and essentially a mother. It skewed her whole view of the world. Again it's not whether she came out better or worse it's that she was changed without having a choice. I personally think what the Monks did to Buffy is about the worst attack she has been subjected to and it's made worse by the fact she can't remember life before their attack. Just think how much would you like to have your childhood and family altered on someone else's whim? I wouldn't like to have another sibling forced into my memory, erasing all of my past and changing my outlook on the future.

I do agree that memory is a large part of what makes a person a person, there are cases of amnesiacs and people with life-changing brain injuries becoming completly different people.
But honestly, from what we see in Buffy/Angel. it seems less important there. I agree that Buffy going from only child to sibling is huge, yet is that reflected in her personality?
I just don't see it. Maybe thats a failure of the writers, I don't know, but I just can't work up any indignation over the monks doing it to her, and I certainly never viewed S5 Buffy as a different person.

Also I think we have different definitions of 'whim', we are shown that the monks were under attack by an insane hellgod when they finished their spell. They sent the key to Buffy so she could hide/protect it, I'm not sure their intent was to attack/screw her up mentally, they were trying to save the world.

Angel's violation is a little more grey area, he did violate his friends minds, but not to the same extent. I mean how many call Angel out on what he did when the spell is broken and their memories return? None of them, they all get why he did it, including the person who he violated most of all: Conner. Conner's whole life was altered, his personality changed, but Conner is actually grateful to his father, for giving him some happy, non-helldimesion-y memories to stabalise him.

---------- Post added at 03:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 PM ----------

Cyvus Vail has eliminated only the memory of Connor, not free will. I don't see how they could be puppets.

...however

if you have no memory of your past mistakes (and I'm referring to Wesley), you're bound to repeat them, and this isn't good.

Good point. If the same or similar circumstances were to occur, Wesley would probably do the same thing, although Angel wouldn't have been so trusting next time around.

 

[Robb Stark]

While I feel this way quite often, I think some are being too hard on Angel for what he did at the end of S4 with Connor and his friend's memories. Calling it "disgusting" and a "violation" is just ignoring the context of what actually happened. His son was about to blow himself and a ton of innocent people up. Angel saved all their lives by what he did. There are people who hate Angel and always will and I accept that, but look at what Connor was about to do, and look at how he was in S5. To save the lives of that many people...who wouldn't do the same? Who wouldn't go to the wall to save the ones they love like that? Angel made a hard call, a terribly hard call, but he did the right thing. People get to live because of what he did, whereas the only other alternative was death.

God I wish people would see Angel the way I do lol