Buffys ( as in two ) the vampire slayers?
- Thread starter EVIL UU
- Start date
The Bronze
Rogue Demon Hunter
I go back and forth on Angel to be honest. For the most part I like him. He tries to do the right thing and I enjoy his sense of humour. That being said I find him incredibly frustrating and his decision making awful at times. I've just been through IWRY on my rewatch and I want to throttle him most of the time lol. Then there's the Season 8 debacle.
In this instance I can fully appreciate his reasons and good intentions but I'm not so sure that gives him the right to play God. Perhaps if he'd cut a deal just to help Connor, change his memories and leave everyone else alone then I'd be behind him. But to change everyone's memories of the last year or 2 is just too much.
---------- Post added at 11:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 AM ----------
I'd say that it is a failure on the part of the writers. I must admit I tend to just go with the flow while watching it rather than think too much about the damage of memory wipes and mind control.
Much like with Angel the Monks are well intentioned but not too bright. The fact it worked was more luck than judgement. The potential damage they could have caused to Buffy meant they were placing the key in danger. I mean imagine finding out the your whole life has been a lie, that you can't trust your own memories? It could easily have sent Buffy off the deep end once she found this out and made her no use to anyone including Dawn. They'd have been better off sending Buffy the key in a different form and a note explaining the situation. If they have the power for the spell they used, they should have been able to use it more wisely without writing over Buffy's past.
Robb Stark
King in the North
Well, what's your alternative then? Too much for whom? The people Connor would have killed otherwise? I'm not saying Angel made some perfect, ultimately altruistic decision, there's a lot of grey to what he did, but framing it as evidence of Angel's supposed god-complex (not saying you're doing that, but I've seen another on this thread do that more than once or twice) is trying to conform facts to fit your conclusion, when it should be the other way around.
IWRY is done to save the love of his life. That's not him playing god, it's admirable that he was willing to sacrifice like that. S8 was a debacle, there's no way around it, but he put his trust in someone who had saved him from the abyss and who turned out to be the ultimate traitor.
[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION],
The difference is that your analysis is often, though not always, framed through Spike-colored glasses. Mine is not.
white avenger
white avenger
My Spike colored glasses might arguably bias my opinion on Spike, but they don't affect my judgement of any other character. I consider my judgement of Angel to be completely unbiased and objective. It's not my fault that I'm one of the few people who recognizes so many of Ol' Broody's bad traits.
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
EVIL UU while most people don't agree with you, I do. For me there are 2 Buffys. Canon!Buffy (S1-4) and Dawnverse!Buffy (S4-now). Dawnverse Buffy simply can't be the same due to the changed family dynamic alone. That's not even getting into the fake memories. Wonder how many people have done a rewatch of the earlier Seasons and tried to fit Dawn into it. For me it doesn't just require changing a scene here and there but sometimes whole episodes.
Not to mention that we have been told the Season before (via the Jonathonverse) that changing reality to accomodate one person is WRONG. That changed memories/experiences changes people. But somehow it's ok in the case of Dawn and nothing and no one changes? Don't buy it.
The Bronze
[No message]
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Except that Jonathan did his spell for incredibely selfish reasons- the world (or at least Sunnydale) literally revolved around him and everyone thought he was wonderful. Remember those beautiful twins he raped...I mean slept with, when they thought he was brilliant?
Dawn was placed into the Scoobies lives seemlessly, by a powerful group of monks, not just one spell that anyone (such as a magical novice like Jonathan) could cast, there's the difference.
One of the reasons Dawn is such a brat is that she feels that the world revolves around her big sister, who gets all the attention/drama in her life. Almost like Dawn herself is just an observer- because that's exactly what she was when she placed into their lives, she doesn't affect anybody because she's just a set of memories at that point.
The Bronze
Rogue Demon Hunter
Too much for the people he changed. The spell changed the lives and memories of countless people for over a year. That's too much power for one person to weild even if his intentions are good. My alternative would have been just to do the spelll on Connor. If you've got the magic for the spell he cast then he should have enough magic to just wipe Connor's memory leave the rest alone. Just make them think Connor released the hostages and then killed himself.
IWRY was him making a great sacrifice based on all sorts of shaky evidence that he didn't take any time to think through. Firstly the Mohra demon was holding his own against Buffy. That means he was clearly no pushover. Angel was doing OK in his fight with the demon before Buffy arrived. That means he wasn't as useless as a human as he was making out. Secondly why did he not want to wake Buffy up? What kind of stupid decision is that? She's not a child, she's the slayer and anyone with an ounce of sense would have woken her up and came up with a plan to kill the Mohra. Thirdly why's he taking the word of the Mohra demon and Oracles as Gospel? The others the Mohra said were coming, where they then? The Oracles telling him that Buffy will die? So what. He believes them because they're gold and shiny? He's met them once before and they've already admitted they didn't see Angels human turn coming. They're hardly all seeing are they? For me Angel got scared and panicked.
white avenger
white avenger
And the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I've always wondered if Angel ever figured out just how the Powers screwed him over on that deal. Buffy still died protecting someone who she loved and whose life she placed a higher value on than her own. No, he had no way of knowing that that would happen when he stole the memory and happiness of that day from that "love of his life," but he should have learned from the experience.
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
Of course his motives weren't pure. Not even arguing that. Fact of the matter is that changing the world to accomodate one person is wrong. And really how is what the monks did not wrong? They changed hundreds of peoples memories (from LA to Sunnydale and maybe beyond that) to insert Dawn into reality. Without their ok to do so. Last I checked the removal of free will was also never seen as a good thing by the show or fans.
The best way for the monks to not violate anything or anyone would have been to turn the key into a fish (since it had to be a living creature though my memory is shaky on that) and drop it into one of the many giant oceans we have on this planet. Good luck finding the key then Glory...
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Where's the removal of free will? All the people who interacted with Dawn behaved differently, if it was as you say then everyone would've treated Dawn like they treated Jonathan, fauning over her and loving. Instead Buffy is irritated by her, as is Giles, Riley ignores her, as does Spike. It doesn't affect anybody's personalities apart from Buffy and Joyce.
Oh, and your idea fails to take into account that Glory almost finds Dawn a couple of times. Rememer that snake creature in 'Shadow'- it could track and see the key no matter where it was or what it was disguised as. The slayer was there to protect the key, because it wasn't just enough to hide it. Eventually Glory would find it, (she tracked it to Sunnydale easily enough) and the monks seemed to have known this, which is why they did what they did.
Cngrats, you just ended the world with your fish idea. 😛
---------- Post added at 02:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------
In IWRY he was told by Doyle that the Oracles were a conduit to the powers that be- that's how Angel knew what they were and that they were telling the truth. They're the good guys.
Buffy died, but the nature of her death (magical) meant that she could be brought back- maybe the Ocacles took that into account when they told Angel what lay in the future. Who knows.
Point is both Angel (vampire Angel that isand Buffy have stopped the end of the world after this many times.
So clearly Angel made the right call, he didn't panic, he thought it through, and found the price for both of them to be too high. He tell Buffy this and she accepts it.
I really don't see the problem, unless its just a 'I hate Angel thing' 🙄
Xin Rong
[No message]
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
The removal of free will comes with the changing memories. The monks didn't ask anyone if it was ok that their memories were messed with. How is it that it's seen as wrong when Jonathan does it or Angel (different cases but the sake of arguement) but it's perfectly ok in the case of Dawn and the monks. Does not compute. It's either wrong in all cases or it's not.
And a change in the Summers family dynamic automatically leads to changes in all external relationships.
My fish idea didn't end the world. And seriously sending the key to the place where the ritual takes place, stashing it with the most likely person to be able to protect it...I wouldn't need a snake creature to find it. Just half a brain. And since Glory sat around all Season for the most part don't see how it would have been different in my fish scenario. Btw It's kind of funny to argue about a plot that made no sense whatsoever to begin with.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
But of course they're different, because we see they're different. Jonathan's spell, that removed free will to an extent (those twins again...) and everyone acting differently because he was so awesome...this equals no free will.
What the monks did is both more invasive and more skillful. Agreed they change the family dynamic and I agree to a certain extent that Buffy and the others were influenced to look favourably on Dawn (especially her family), but its not a removal of free will, because when they discover Dawn isn't real they choose to accept her anyway, knoiwing what they know. Buffy gives her life for Dawn because she chooses to- ergo free will.
Sending the key to the Hellmouth...dumb, I agree.🙂
However, I'll maintain that Glory and her minions would've found the key where ever is was. Doing what this did meant that Buffy would protect fight for it with everything she's got (because, being a good person, she chooses to). Was it wrong to do? Yes, but they believed that the world was at stake and that they they had no other choice.
If the monks had known how incompotent Glory was...maybe they wouldn't have bothered, but hindsight is always twenty-twenty. 🙂
Xin Rong
[No message]
The Bronze
Rogue Demon Hunter
They took away Buffy's memories from the age of five and replaced them with their own artificial ones. They had no consent for this. The new Buffy then accepted the situation after the truth was revealed to her. This means nothing to the Buffy that has been over written, the memories aren't returned to her. She's unable to give any genuine consent to the monks. That's the removal of free will.
It's not an 'I hate Angel thing'. Like I said earlier I like him for the most part. If you don't see the problem then you're avoiding it or not looking hard enough 😛.
Angel's decision making throughout IWRY is the problem. Not waking Buffy up is stupid. Deciding he's no use as a human after doing marginally worse than Buffy against the Mohra is stupid. Blindly accepting the words of the oracles and the demon as truth is stupid. Doyle's knowledge of TPB can be written on the back of his hand. Just because he points him to the Oracles doesn't mean they are all seeing, all knowledgable or in fact good. They didn't see Angel's human turn coming, they didn't care much either. The hundreds of soldiers the Mohra promised? Hot air. Where were they then.
It's Angel's problem all over though. Doyle said, The Oracles said, Whistler said etc. He jumps into decisions on the word of one source without thinking it through or discussing it with anyone else. Buffy's a big girl. She should have been consulted before Angel jumped in to change the day.
She might have explained to him that by staying human the risk of Angelus ever returning was greatly reduced. She might have pointed out that The Oracles didn't see Angel turning human coming, thus giving them a zero percent success rate of telling the future as far Angel knew. She might have said that there was no evidence of more Mohra showing up, just a dying demons boast. She could have said that her life is permantly in danger, that's the line of work she's in.
Saying everything worked out OK is a cop out. It discounts the possibility that things could have been better. It also means that every decision and action in the verse is justifyable because it worked out OK in the end.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Removal of free will means that Buffy didn't have a choice, all of S5 is Buffy learning what her sister is and then choosing to love and protect her anyway- that's free will.
Her memories were messed with, but she wasn't turned into a slave.
As for 'IWRY' the visions come from the powers, we know this, Doyle knows this. They are directions to help/save people- I'd say that they're the good guys.
As for the Oracles- they're arrogant to be sure but are moved enough by Angel's appeal to grant his request to turn back time, to undo what he doesn't want to happen. Saying that 'we don't know that they're good seems disingenuous to me.
Plus if the Oracles didn't matter then why were they murdered by that warrior demon in 'To Shanshu In LA'?
I do agre he should've woken Buffy and they should've gone after the Morhra together. Overconfidence? Dumb male pride? Thinking Buffy sleeping is the cutest thing ever? Whatever his reasons he was wrong. Agreed. 🙂
I think its consensus that Angel the human is a really shit fighter, I mean really bad. Worse than Gunn or Wesley, he doesn't 'hold his own' against the Mohra, he barely gets it out of breath as it kicks his ass all ove the place. True, he might've gotten better, but Angel the vampire is a world saver. Angel the human...I doubt he could've become that.
The Mohra demon promises 'Hundreds of soldiers'- try the summer between S1 and 2 for starters when Angel Investigations is setting them up and then knocking them down. plus 'Judgement' (high stakes) and every other monster than Angel kills on the show, every live he saves.
Angel the series is all about how Angel can be a major player in the Apocalypse, not Angelus. In the big scheme of things, Angelus is just a vampire- dangerous and sadistic, but ultimately just a vampire.
Angel can make a real difference, either for good or bad, thats where a lot of the tension of the show comes from- that's why W&H manipulates him so much.
Saying things work out okay isn't a cop-out if you're specifically reffering to prophecy and foretelling the future. Maybe the Oracles saw that Angel, in the future, would make a difference. Foul up W&H, defeat Jasmine, deliver that necklace thing to save Sunnydale, take on the senior partners- none of which he could've done if he were human.
Buffy died, but she was brought back. Maybe if she'd didn't protecting Angel, she couldn't have been brought back. It's a distinct possibility, in fact very likely given what was to come.
white avenger
white avenger
This is something that I have always been somewhat suspicious of. In Season 2, Buffy, reluctantly of course, sacrificed Angel to save the world. She could just as easily cut him with her sword, smeared his blood on herself, and jumped through the portal herself. We're talking about a vampire here, basically an animated corpse, so whatever closed the portal shouldn't have had to be living, or the actual source of the blood, and, obviously, no beating heart required. Point being, Buffy didn't sacrifice herself to save the love of her life, her soul mate, and her lover. She let him close the portal that his blood was responsible for opening.
Comes along Season 5, a green ball of energy is transformed into what everyone believes to be her baby sister. Throughout te rest of te story line, Buffy absolutely refuses to consider Dawn dieing to save the world if it comes to that point. ("And the last thing that she sees will be me protecting her."). The time comes, the decision is made, and it's Buffy this time, not her supposed sister, who closes the portal.
Is it not possible, indeed, is it not highly probable, that the monks who created Dawn, who altered the memories of everyone who had had the least possible contact with her, would have instilled the exact same drive and dedication to protect the Key in any and all circumstances, even to the point of sacrificing her own life, in he person who they had selected to be the Key's guardian? Even if they didn't do it intentionally, couldn't their own resolve to die rather than let Glory recover the key, have somehow bled into the spell that they were casting? That might also even explain why, two years later, Buffy says that, under similar circumstances, she actually would have allowed Dawn to die, just as she had done with Angel all those years before?
If you can see the logic in that, or even the possibility of it, then it is quite likely that Buffy was, indeed, turned into a slave, at least in that one specific instance.
And, for the record, I don't hate Angel, I just hate some of the things that he has done.
The Bronze
Rogue Demon Hunter
[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] makes a very good argument. Wouldn't surprise if there's some truth in this. I'll make a slightly shorter point. Based on the old saying of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. All of Season 5 is "New Buffy" learning that her past has been fabricated against her will and then choosing to protect the key and save the world in spite of this. "Original Buffy" has no free will or choice at all. Her memories have been altered and she's no longer around to make a decision. The saddest part of all this is that Buffy would have absolutely protected the world to the best of her abilities. The Monks had no need to attack her.
Ok well I disagree with the general consensus. The Mohra was giving plenty for Buffy to think about. The face that it didn't manage to kill Angel and he got a few shots in suggests he was still well above average in hand to hand combat.
The PTB are helping and seem to be the good guys. I wouldn't be surprised if they have their own agenda but I'm happy to call them the good guys for now. The Oracles aren't the powers and they seem largely uninterested in earthly affairs. They're hardly a pair of hero's to be followed and obeyed at all costs.
I haven't got very far into Angel on my re-watch so I'm a little rusty. I don't remember hundreds of soldiers linked to the Mohra in any way descending upon Angel or Buffy. Random demons and problems doesn't count. If I've forgotten this then I'm happy to be corrected.
Agreed that Angel could make a big difference. I don't think that means he had to be a vampire though. Perhaps he did, it's something he should have discussed with Buffy and probably the others. Unfortunately he's already attempted to bring about one apocalypse and if the vision of Cordy was telling the truth he's likely to wade into another one in the future.
If that demon hadn't killed the Oracles you could have applied to be their PR manager! The Oracles saw all of that happening but missed the Mohra demon turning their champion human and then missed the demon coming to kill them? They've got some power for sure but I don't think that includes accurate pre cognition.
white avenger
white avenger
There are certainly several quite capable, totally human, demon fighters that we know of in the Buffyverse, and probably many more that the story line simply hasn't included at this point. Angel didn't do nearly as bad against the Morah demon as he could have. He survived, after all, even if that was partially the result of Buffy's intervention. His problem, though, is that he learned to fight a certain way, dependent on his abilities as a vampire, superior speed, strength, endurance, and so on. Without that, his technique fails, just like Superman's ability to fight would be all screwed up without his super powers. Angel could have, in time, become at least as skillful a fighter as Gunn, Wes, Riley, or even Xander, but the key word there is "time." Angel has gone from being one of the three or four best fighters in the Buffyverse to being just one of the common herd, and he doesn't like it. He feels that he can't do his job properly anymore, and he sees at least a major part of that job as being Buffy's near equal, partner, and even her protector. Perfectly understandable. I find it somewhat ironic, however, considering the fact that he did just about exactly that in the "After The Fall" arc at IDE before they lost the franchise to Dark Horse. Granted, he used some magical enhancement provided by Wes' ghost, but my point is that Angel as a normal human COULD, if required to, get the job done.
And as for the Oracles not seeing that Angel would lose his powers, who's to say that they didn't see it, but also saw him cutting the deal to restore those powers the next day. And maybe they see death in a far different light than we do, and getting killed by a demon isn't all that important to them?
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
So... Buffy has free will before S5 because she sacrifices Angel to save the world, but the spell caused her to blindly sacrifice herself for Dawn at the end of S5...but by S7 she's reverted back to orginal Buffy and would willingly sacrifice Dawn to save the world.
That's your arguement? 😕
Did she somehow regain her 'buffyness' and her free will after she was ressurected in S6?
Sorry, I'll take the 'Dawn didn't completely alter Buffy and brainwash her' option, because it actually makes more sense that way. 😛
Either Buffy evolves as a character (like almost every character in the series) or she flits back and forth between two seperate characters.
I'll never be convinced of the logic of the latter argument. 🙂
---------- Post added at 12:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 AM ----------
Also ,I would add that if Angel hadn't told Buffy, I would have a different take on what he did, so I can see where you're coming from.
But it is shown that he loves being human, and loves Buffy, and giving either of those up couldn't have been easy for him, I just don't see him doing it lightly.
I think Angel does have the fault where he sees the 'big picture' wheter its his redemption, or some big save the world thing, and makes a decision based on his interpretation of the facts. (or by blindly following what he's told by somebody else.) It's his one major fault imo.
But...I still like him because I can always see what he's trying to do- they're never easy choices and he never, ever comes out ahead.
He loses Buffy, loses Conner, almost dies a bunch of times, he 'big decisions' never give him a happy ending. If they did maybe I wouldn't be so forgiving. 🙂
That's your arguement? 😕
Did she somehow regain her 'buffyness' and her free will after she was ressurected in S6?
Sorry, I'll take the 'Dawn didn't completely alter Buffy and brainwash her' option, because it actually makes more sense that way. 😛
Either Buffy evolves as a character (like almost every character in the series) or she flits back and forth between two seperate characters.
I'll never be convinced of the logic of the latter argument. 🙂
---------- Post added at 12:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 AM ----------
Also ,I would add that if Angel hadn't told Buffy, I would have a different take on what he did, so I can see where you're coming from.
But it is shown that he loves being human, and loves Buffy, and giving either of those up couldn't have been easy for him, I just don't see him doing it lightly.
I think Angel does have the fault where he sees the 'big picture' wheter its his redemption, or some big save the world thing, and makes a decision based on his interpretation of the facts. (or by blindly following what he's told by somebody else.) It's his one major fault imo.
But...I still like him because I can always see what he's trying to do- they're never easy choices and he never, ever comes out ahead.
He loses Buffy, loses Conner, almost dies a bunch of times, he 'big decisions' never give him a happy ending. If they did maybe I wouldn't be so forgiving. 🙂
white avenger
white avenger
Not if the protection element of the spell applied only to the specific threat posed by Glory. Once that threat was averted, so was the "protect Dawn at all cost" mind set. From that point on, Buffy would only see Dawn as her rather obnoxious younger sister.
In other words, it wasn't a case of Buffy regaining any of her previous "Buffiness" as much as it was a case of Dawn losing all or most of her "Keyness."
And, like Spock, the ability of some humans to reject logic is no surprise to me.
Live long and prosper.
Yeah, all she does is rotate many foodstuffs. Even a Lazy Susan can handle that 😉
As to the OP, I don't agree that she's a different person, any more than you become a different person when you accumulate new memories, forget other things, etc. Everybody's memories change; it just happened to be faster than usual in this case.
(Also, random thought, if Buffy were a new character as a result, Xander, Willow, Giles, Joyce, Anya, Tara and Hank Summers all would be too...)