Buffy's Boyfriends

[Smickers]

If you look at Spike's background and behaviour, he has historically looked to someone, usually a woman, to give himself self-worth and a purpose in life. From his Effulgent poem crush prior to turning into a vamp, to his love and care for his mother and also his love and care for Drusilla. He has always put women on a pedestal, but it hasn't been to his detriment, he has always become a better person once he has a person in his life that gives him purpose. He tells Buffy 'And you treat me like a man...'. Buffy gives him confidence in himself and a greater purpose in life.

On the flip side, Buffy has an unbelievable burden for a young woman that not even her friends can really relate too. They can walk away if they choose to, at any point. They can have relatively normal lives, they can choose a career, a partner, whether they wish to have a family or get married. Buffy also is going to have concerns and frustrations about the group, her relationships with her friends, her mother and Giles. She can't confide to the everyday public about her wicca best friend, her watcher father figure and about hiding her ball of energy sister. This is why both Spike and Angel make great confidants to Buffy, they share her world but aren't really part of it.

It's only when they both cross the sexual line that problems occur, Buffy uses Spike to feel better about her situation while Spike develops an unhealthy attachment. It's only at the end of season 7 you see the way the friendship should have flourished.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Buffy, imo, had lost attraction and possibly even feelings towards him due to his lack of masculine traits. It's actually evident from her having him sitting out of dangerous fights and Riley himself trying to hold onto his Initiative strength.

I disagree. Buffy wanted Riley to sit out whilst he was recovering from surgery because she didn't want him getting killed. Riley was the one who turned it into a masculinity contest. I do think that Buffy got fed up with Riley though because of his constant need for validation. He wanted Buffy to "need" him and got pissy because she wasn't breaking down and sobbing on his shoulder.

 

[Smickers]

I disagree. Buffy wanted Riley to sit out whilst he was recovering from surgery because she didn't want him getting killed. Riley was the one who turned it into a masculinity contest. I do think that Buffy got fed up with Riley though because of his constant need for validation. He wanted Buffy to "need" him and got pissy because she wasn't breaking down and sobbing on his shoulder.

I absolutely agree that Riley got pissy and needy because Buffy didn't need him, I still think though that this just made the divide between them exponentially worse. Buffy did start to put him on the side lines before his surgery however, sub-consciously putting him with the rest of the group (although that is where he belongs) rather than fighting at her side. It's probably an unpopular opinion but being in that position made Riley anything but an alpha male and typically that would be deemed unattractive, not as a friend or a person, but as a sexual partner. They even say in Riley's goodbye episode that they hadn't touched in a while.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I absolutely agree that Riley got pissy and needy because Buffy didn't need him, I still think though that this just made the divide between them exponentially worse. Buffy did start to put him on the side lines before his surgery however, sub-consciously putting him with the rest of the group (although that is where he belongs) rather than fighting at her side. It's probably an unpopular opinion but being in that position made Riley anything but an alpha male and typically that would be deemed unattractive, not as a friend or a person, but as a sexual partner. They even say in Riley's goodbye episode that they hadn't touched in a while.

Riley didn't like the change in power dynamic between him and Buffy. In Season 4, he was the one in charge in regards to their positions within the initiative. In Season 5 Buffy was the one in charge and Riley couldn't cope with that. I do wonder if the Monks' spell played a part in the Briley break up due to the changed memories.

 

[DayDreamer27]

I liked the forbidden thing with Bangel, and thought it was a unique situation of having the slayer's greatest love be with a vampire -the only one who ever had a soul. I love the concept, and I loved their relationship. But I feel it needed to stop there. Spuffy was pushing it when you have the slayer screwing a vampire who is still evil, and spending almost more time doing that than slaying. lol

So dragging your heroine through the mud of screwing monsters isn't enough. But they have to keep pushing the relationship and make it a rip-off of Bangel by having Spike go and get a soul now. We already had her with an ensouled vamp. Angel. If they wanted to go in that direction, having Angel eventually find a way to get a soul without the curse and let her get back with him. Rather than playing house with Spike. Cangel & Spuffy, as I said before just seemed like dollar store versions of Bangel. They split up Bangel, so they can recreate it with Spike & Cordelia? What was the point?

Again Cangel & Spuffy just sucked the appeal and specialness out of Bangel by making imitations. Leave Buffy's greatest love as an impossible case with the only good vampire. Her hooking up with a non-ensouled Spike cheapened Bangel, Spike, and her. Again, I say this if they had the her sleeping with anything that was still clearly evil -Angelus, The Master, The Judge, etc. You name it.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Again, I say this if they had the her sleeping with anything that was still clearly evil -Angelus, The Master, The Judge, etc. You name it.

Remember Buffy all depressed and PTSD-ed and she didn't jump on Ken's penis? I really miss Canon!Buffy. And for a lot of people AtS S5 was the last impression of the Buffy character. Some people outright said that she clearly has a fetish for evil and I remember someone calling her 'the whore of the undead' after TGiQ. For the majority of the audience that was the last they 'saw' of Buffy and what a note to go out on (NOT).

 

[Soulfrag]

They copied Twilight.



















blep.

 

[joseph]

If you look at Spike's background and behaviour, he has historically looked to someone, usually a woman, to give himself self-worth and a purpose in life. From his Effulgent poem crush prior to turning into a vamp, to his love and care for his mother and also his love and care for Drusilla. He has always put women on a pedestal, but it hasn't been to his detriment, he has always become a better person once he has a person in his life that gives him purpose. He tells Buffy 'And you treat me like a man...'. Buffy gives him confidence in himself and a greater purpose in life.

On the flip side, Buffy has an unbelievable burden for a young woman that not even her friends can really relate too. They can walk away if they choose to, at any point. They can have relatively normal lives, they can choose a career, a partner, whether they wish to have a family or get married. Buffy also is going to have concerns and frustrations about the group, her relationships with her friends, her mother and Giles. She can't confide to the everyday public about her wicca best friend, her watcher father figure and about hiding her ball of energy sister. This is why both Spike and Angel make great confidants to Buffy, they share her world but aren't really part of it.

It's only when they both cross the sexual line that problems occur, Buffy uses Spike to feel better about her situation while Spike develops an unhealthy attachment. It's only at the end of season 7 you see the way the friendship should have flourished.

the had to be vampire and I have no idea, what happened in season 7 stopped watching after season 6.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

@DayDreamer27 I don't think Spike getting his soul cheapens Angel or Bangel at all. I think Spike and Darla getting their souls back show the specialness of Angel making himself into a champion. It challenges the idea that the soul was a special privilege awarded only to Angel. The soul merely provides the opportunity for change.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

It challenges the idea that the soul was a special privilege awarded only to Angel.

Except the soul wasn't "awarded" or a "special privilege", it was a PUNISHMENT for Angelus after killing the gypsy girl. It was a "curse". A soul is the worst thing which could be afflicted upon a vampire hence why the gypsies did it, it was never with the intent to make Angel a "champion" but to make him SUFFER.

It's why Spike getting a soul for Buffy is wrong in my opinion. He never had any issues with being soulless, he was quite happy being soulless, yet the writers had him go out and afflict himself with something that would make him suffer, all so that Buffy would love him. If Buffy can't love him soulless (which she shouldn't) then she shouldn't love him at all. Spike was such a great character until Spuffy took hold and he became nothing more than Buffy's lap dog. His storyline from Seasons 5-7 was literally all about Spuffy. When a character has to be changed so drastically in order to make a couple work, then that couple is a forced one and not natural.

 

[Dora]

@DayDreamer27 I don't think Spike getting his soul cheapens Angel or Bangel at all. I think Spike and Darla getting their souls back show the specialness of Angel making himself into a champion. It challenges the idea that the soul was a special privilege awarded only to Angel. The soul merely provides the opportunity for change.

Privilege did not the Gypsy punish Angel with his soul did he not mope around for 100 years because of his guilt ( as against Spike who spent a few afternoons in the school cellar ) , and only Buffy in Amends makes Angel see his role different to help people

Post automatically merged: Apr 25, 2018

Except the soul wasn't "awarded" or a "special privilege", it was a PUNISHMENT for Angelus after killing the gypsy girl. It was a "curse". A soul is the worst thing which could be afflicted upon a vampire hence why the gypsies did it, it was never with the intent to make Angel a "champion" but to make him SUFFER.

It's why Spike getting a soul for Buffy is wrong in my opinion. He never had any issues with being soulless, he was quite happy being soulless, yet the writers had him go out and afflict himself with something that would make him suffer, all so that Buffy would love him. If Buffy can't love him soulless (which she shouldn't) then she shouldn't love him at all. Spike was such a great character until Spuffy took hold and he became nothing more than Buffy's lap dog. His storyline from Seasons 5-7 was literally all about Spuffy. When a character has to be changed so drastically in order to make a couple work, then that couple is a forced one and not natural.

Spike was a great character until his chip....but what else do you with him but to be involved with Buffy he can no longer fight Buffy that just leaves to have sex with Buffy ( something she did not want ) there is nothing for his story in all honesty if you took away his death S7 what did his story add to the last two seasons conclusions...... certainly S7 he help train the Potentials at night with Buffy ....big deal , Kennedy did more

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Spike was a great character until his chip....but what else do you with him but to be involved with Buffy he can no longer fight Buffy that just leaves to have sex with Buffy ( something she did not want ) there is nothing for his story in all honesty if you took away his death S7 what did his story add to the last two seasons conclusions...... certainly S7 he help train the Potentials at night with Buffy ....big deal , Kennedy did more

I wish Kennedy had gotten eaten by Gnarl.

I would've much preferred Spike to stay with Drusilla and the two of them pop in and out of the show to cause trouble. I think they should've been used on Season 2 of Angel when the Darla storyline was going on, have Angel torn between his past and his present. The Whirlwind should've really gotten their time to shine there and it's undeniable that the Whirlwind flashbacks (both as a group and individually) were some of the best parts of the shows. Drusilla especially should've been fleshed out more since she is Angel's biggest regret over what he did to her.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Except the soul wasn't "awarded" or a "special privilege", it was a PUNISHMENT for Angelus after killing the gypsy girl. It was a "curse". A soul is the worst thing which could be afflicted upon a vampire hence why the gypsies did it, it was never with the intent to make Angel a "champion" but to make him SUFFER.

You completely misread my post, and I kinda feel you did it on purpose. After Spike and Darla get their souls back, Angel is no longer special because of his having a soul but because of his unique reaction to getting his soul. It shows that Angel made himself. It wasn't the soul that made him a champion. And I think, despite the cost, Angel is happy to have had this opportunity.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

You completely misread my post, and I kinda feel you did it on purpose.

Well you would be wrong because I didn't do it on purpose.

After Spike and Darla get their souls back, Angel is no longer special because of his having a soul but because of his unique reaction to getting his soul. It shows that Angel made himself. It wasn't the soul that made him a champion. And I think, despite the cost, Angel is happy to have had this opportunity.

Angel accepts his soul and wouldn't want to be without it once he has it, but the soul itself wasn't a "special privilege awarded" to Angel. It was intended as a PUNISHMENT and to cause him eternal suffering and torment. Angel just made the best out of (what would be for a vampire) a bad situation.

Also in the first 3 seasons, Angel being "a vampire with a soul" was played up as something that was unique about him. Buffy fell in love with the one vampire in all the world that had a soul, which goes nicely with her being the "one girl in all the world" as a slayer. If any vampire could go out and start gaining a soul, then it takes away what makes Angel so unique in the first 3 seasons.

 

[Dora]

I wish Kennedy had gotten eaten by Gnarl.

I would've much preferred Spike to stay with Drusilla and the two of them pop in and out of the show to cause trouble. I think they should've been used on Season 2 of Angel when the Darla storyline was going on, have Angel torn between his past and his present. The Whirlwind should've really gotten their time to shine there and it's undeniable that the Whirlwind flashbacks (both as a group and individually) were some of the best parts of the shows. Drusilla especially should've been fleshed out more since she is Angel's biggest regret over what he did to her.

How great would that have been S6 bad guy Spike and Dru but coming round and helping the Scoobies fight the first in S7 so much better than what we got .....

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

the soul itself wasn't a "special privilege awarded" to Angel

I did not say it was. Maybe it would have been clearer if I had said "disproves" rather than "challenges," but I think you should have been able to get my meaning from context. Now, this wasn't new information, but Spike and Darla's stories provided concrete comparisons.

Also in the first 3 seasons, Angel being "a vampire with a soul" was played up as something that was unique about him. Buffy fell in love with the one vampire in all the world that had a soul, which goes nicely with her being the "one girl in all the world" as a slayer. If any vampire could go out and start gaining a soul, then it takes away what makes Angel so unique in the first 3 seasons.

By this logic, Kendra and Faith made Buffy less special. I would argue that they made Buffy more special, because they prove that Buffy is more than her super powers, just as Angel is more than a vampire with a soul. Even Wishverse!Buffy helps characterise Buffy by their contrast.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

How great would that have been S6 bad guy Spike and Dru but coming round and helping the Scoobies fight the first in S7 so much better than what we got .....

Bad guys helping the heroes beat an even badder bad guy shows just how bad the badder bad guy is. It would've given the First some weight as a real threat instead of the worst thing it could do being "talking". Why didn't the scoobies and potentials just close their eyes and stick on some headphones to blot the first out?

Also if Spike and Dru had killed some of the potentials just as a snack before teaming up with Buffy, then it would also create tension amongst the group that Buffy has teamed up with two personal killers. Add in the wood stuff, and Spike actually killing Wood, then you've got another legitimate reason for why Buffy's judgement may be called into question.

As it currently stands, Buffy was thrown out of her own house despite being right, all because Kennedy wanted a bigger say and wasn't getting it.

IBy this logic, Kendra and Faith made Buffy less special.

I disagree, it's a completely different situation.

Having two slayers at the same time was supposed to be an impossibility, much like Angel, as a vampire, having a soul was supposed to be an impossibility. Having more than one vampire with a soul takes away that impossibility about Angel, thus making him "less special". Since having more than one slayer is the impossibility, Buffy's "specialness" was enhanced by having Kendra and Faith around at the same time.

Also, Kendra and Faith were used to show why it was so important for Buffy to respect her power as the slayer but not to abuse it or let it control her. Kendra died quickly because she was too by the book, whilst Faith went evil because she had no respect for her power or duty. Buffy is the balance between the two.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Having two slayers at the same time was supposed to be an impossibility, much like Angel, as a vampire, having a soul was supposed to be an impossibility. Having more than one vampire with a soul takes away that impossibility about Angel, thus making him "less special". Since having more than one slayer is the impossibility, Buffy's "specialness" was enhanced by having Kendra and Faith around at the same time.

Now you're just arguing for the sake of it.

Also, Kendra and Faith were used to show why it was so important for Buffy to respect her power as the slayer but not to abuse it or let it control her. Kendra died quickly because she was too by the book, whilst Faith went evil because she had no respect for her power or duty. Buffy is the balance between the two.

This is exactly my point. Buffy shows the ideal way to handle the responsibility of being a slayer. Angel shows the ideal reaction to getting a soul. The less successful characters enrich our understanding of Buffy and Angel.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Now you're just arguing for the sake of it.

No, I'm just laying out my opinion. This is a discussion board, where differing opinions can be discussed.

This is exactly my point. Buffy shows the ideal way to handle the responsibility of being a slayer. Angel shows the ideal reaction to getting a soul. The less successful characters enrich our understanding of Buffy and Angel.

Except whereas Kendra and Faith were "less successful" as slayers than Buffy, Spike is no less successful than Angel. Darla is a bit of a grey area as she was never a vampire with a soul but former vampire turned human that was dying of syphilis.

My point is that Kendra and Faith were used to show what paths Buffy could've taken, Spike was essentially Angel 2.0 but with a more cheery personality. Both situations are different kettles of fish beyond their superficial similarities (there being more than what there should be). Angel shouldn't exist at all whereas Buffy should exist and it is Faith and Kendra who are the impossibility.

Vampire with no soul= normal
Vampire with soul= impossibility
2 vampires with a soul= becoming a common occurrence

1 slayer= normal
2 slayers= impossibility
2+ slayers= becoming a common occurrence.

Buffy became less special when she made all potentials slayers because she was no longer the only one. 2 slayers= special. Everyone slayers= not special.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

My point is that Kendra and Faith were used to show what paths Buffy could've taken, Spike was essentially Angel 2.0 but with a more cheery personality.

Then this is where we disagree. To me, Buffy and Angel are the only characters who live up to the existentialist ideal of radical freedom. Spike - good or bad - lives with bad faith and only does what comes natural to him.

As for Angel being an impossibility, he appears in the first episode, so we have a lot of time to get used to him. If you really wanna argue about it, the Gypsies had the power to make a 100 souled vampires just as the shadow men could have created an army of slayers if they had wanted to. Anyway, I fail to grasp the relevance.