Buffy's Boyfriends

[Cheese Slices]

There is, to me, a distinction between being “shaped by” the memories of Angel’s personality or Angel’s human life and being the same being. The soul is not around for acts committed by the demon. Conversely, the demon is present for the acts committed by the souled being. I find a distinction between the two. I think there is basis in canon for this in both Angel and Darla’s story.

And Angelus sees it that way too. He tells Buffy - “your boyfriend is dead”.



I’m not sure how your interpretation undercuts my argument . The sentiment is the same, even if the intent is poetic or romantic. “I suffer because of you.”/ “I suffer for you.” In either case Buffy didn’t ask for it. And the implication is that Buffy should sympathize with that suffering and forgive him/accept him.



The soul is the difference both times. And that distinction is important. Angel (his soul) was not present when Angelus’ reign of terror was going on same as Spike’s soul was not present when he tried to rape Buffy. In both cases Buffy needs to decide if she can accept the ensouled versions back into her life. The differences are:

- Buffy had previously fallen in love with Angel with a soul whereas she has never known Spike with a soul. She had a previous love and attachment with Angel that she didn’t have with Angelus. In fact, despite rampant fan fiction to the contrary, she has no interest in Angelus. And when Angel’s soul is returned there is a clear indication that this is the being she loves not the demon. (And yes Angel has that demon inside him... but the demon does not define him).
- Angel spent 100 years in hell paying for the crimes of his demon. He never blames Buffy for this. He never tells her about his pain and torture for the implied intent of hoping she will forgive him.
- In s3, we spend a significant amount of time with Buffy’s journey regarding the fall out of s2 including her walking way from Angel multiple times. We see her dealing in a real way with the trauma.
.

Of course Angelus is going to want to distinguish himself with everything that ties him to his potential humanity, which he sees as a weakness. Doesn't mean it's true.


1) The relationship between Angel(us) and Buffy was one sided when it came to how they treated each other : Buffy was always in love with Angel, and she wanted nothing more than spend her life with him. Then she has sex with him and it all goes to hell, but she's always, all the time, 100% the victim, and Angelus is 100% the evil tormentor. It is not the case with the Buffy and Spike relationship in S6. I often say that the alley scene in Dead Things and the bathroom scene in Seeing Red are mirror scenes, and they represent Buffy and Spike's lowest point. The AR is entirely on Spike, and he never blames her for it (hell, it probably counts as one of his most horrific deeds in his mind), just as her almost beating him to death/ using him is entirely on her.
Spike tells Buffy about the trials to get his soul back because she asks, and Spike is just being honest about it. It's all it is : he describes things as they happened. If anything, I find it more respectful than treating Buffy as a child by hiding the truth from her.

2) Angel doesn't accept Buffy breaking things off in Lovers Walk, and asks for her help in Amends. He literally hugs her knees the first time he sees her, and keeps asking for her help and care throughout the season. Not exactly helping her cope with what happened. If you're going to blame Spike for soliciting Buffy's help, do the same for Angel. Personally I don't blame either, and Buffy made the choice to help them in both cases. She didn't have to, but she chose to, because that's who she is and how she's always dealt with trauma.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Of course Angelus is going to want to distinguish himself with everything that ties him to his potential humanity, which he sees as a weakness. Doesn't mean it's true.

Well, the judge would disagree with you there.

Angel doesn't accept Buffy breaking things off in Lovers Walk

He isn't asking for a relationship with her he simply asks if there is a way for them to see each other. She tells him there is if he says he doesn't love her. He can't and so he leaves her alone. When they run into each other in Amends he has clearly stayed away per her requests. I'm not sure how that is Angel "not accepting" Buffy breaking things off.

He literally hugs her knees the first time he sees her, and keeps asking for her help and care throughout the season.

He hugs her because he has just returned from hell, he is delirious and confused. He is not asking her for help at that moment he is relieved to see her. I don't recall where Angel "keeps asking for her help and care throughout the season" but you are correct that she does readily provide it and he accepts it. In fact, at some point, Angel tells her that he is getting better and that he won't need her anymore and that this will be a good thing for her.

And actually - I'm not sure how we started talking about either Vampire "wanting help." Because I don't think that Spike "asks for help" all that much. That is not a criticism of mine with regards to Spike in s7.

I don't think that Angel not telling Buffy about the 100's of years of hell and torture and pain and suffering that he faced is treating Buffy like a child. He understands she already feels unimaginable guilt over the entire situation. Both Buffy and Angel are big with the guilt. He knows there is no reason to add to it.

Ultimately this is a case of agree to disagree on many of these issues.

 

[Cheese Slices]

Well, the judge would disagree with you there.



He isn't asking for a relationship with her he simply asks if there is a way for them to see each other. She tells him there is if he says he doesn't love her. He can't and so he leaves her alone. When they run into each other in Amends he has clearly stayed away per her requests. I'm not sure how that is Angel "not accepting" Buffy breaking things off.



He hugs her because he has just returned from hell, he is delirious and confused. He is not asking her for help at that moment he is relieved to see her. I don't recall where Angel "keeps asking for her help and care throughout the season" but you are correct that she does readily provide it and he accepts it. In fact, at some point, Angel tells her that he is getting better and that he won't need her anymore and that this will be a good thing for her.

And actually - I'm not sure how we started talking about either Vampire "wanting help." Because I don't think that Spike "asks for help" all that much. That is not a criticism of mine with regards to Spike in s7.

I don't think that Angel not telling Buffy about the 100's of years of hell and torture and pain and suffering that he faced is treating Buffy like a child. He understands she already feels unimaginable guilt over the entire situation. Both Buffy and Angel are big with the guilt. He knows there is no reason to add to it.

Ultimately this is a case of agree to disagree on many of these issues.

I thought this was what you more or less meant since I can't recall Spike ever demanding/asking forgiveness.

As for the rest, in Lovers Walk, it's Buffy who says that he doesn't need her help anymore and thus they should go their separate ways, and he who replies "I don't accept that". I do agree that he eventually accepts it (though he kind of keeps stalking/watching her, if I'm not mistaken. But then neither does Spike : the only time he actually goes to Buffy is in Beneath You (to help her), and the rest of the time it's Buffy who goes to check on him, eventually having him move to Xander's then her own house. To sum it up: Spike doesn't push her for anything, be it forgive him or help him.

As for the hell thing, again, I don't recall her asking, so it makes sense he wouldn't tell. In S7, however, she does ask Spike about it.

Agree to disagree in any case 😉

 

[EarthLogic]

There is, to me, a distinction between being “shaped by” the memories of Angel’s personality or Angel’s human life and being the same being. The soul is not around for acts committed by the demon. Conversely, the demon is present for the acts committed by the souled being. I find a distinction between the two. I think there is basis in canon for this in both Angel and Darla’s story.

So do you believe that the soul is a separate personality/self which is returned and not just conscience/morality? I don't think he's being shaped by the 'memories' of personality, but the actual personality traits. The demon takes all the base desires, resentments, selfish motivations and without a soul, dials them up to 11. Add in the bloodlust, enjoyment of pain and impulse to murder people and you've got a vampire. So in a sense it is you - but just the worst possible version of you there can be - but at the same time it isn't, because as you and I have both argued, the soul allows that crucial degree of moral choice so IMO the bottom line will always be that it is not your (evil) potential but the choices that you make when the full spectrum of morality is open to you (i.e. soul), that make you who you truly are.

Well, the judge would disagree with you there.

Why so? Angelus does tell Buffy her boyfriend is dead, but it's probbaly to hurt her. He still goes by Angel most of the time and doesn't really otherwise distinguish himself from his souled self. It's just that he resents everything he felt with his soul because he regards it as a weakness: 'she made me feel like a human being'. I'd go as far as to say he can even feel his former love for her, but just cannot understand or handle that feeling so it drives him up the wall.

I’m not sure how your interpretation undercuts my argument . The sentiment is the same, even if the intent is poetic or romantic. “I suffer because of you.”/ “I suffer for you.” In either case Buffy didn’t ask for it. And the implication is that Buffy should sympathize with that suffering and forgive him/accept him.

It wasn't meant to undercut it. I just disagreed that Spike in that particular scene was about him intentionally blaming her. I do think there are occassions where he makes the point about doing it all for her, but here he's saying he understands that Buffy used him because of her own self-hate - which is definitely an improvement on his soulless self where he was convinced she belonged in the darkness with him. I think there is a sort of indirect blame here in the sense that Spike cannot help casting himself in that suffering role, so if we extend that poetic framework to Buffy, puts her in the 'idealised cold mistress' role.

(Totally off-topic but just from looking at the script for that episode again, how would Spike know who Tucker was? He wasn't even around for that episode!)

As for the rest, in Lovers Walk, it's Buffy who says that he doesn't need her help anymore and thus they should go their separate ways, and he who replies "I don't accept that". I do agree that he eventually accepts it (though he kind of keeps stalking/watching her, if I'm not mistaken.

Before Lovers' Walk, it's Buffy who says in 'Band Candy 'pretty soon you won't need my help anymore', to which Angel replies 'that would be better'. After 'Lover's Walk' he doesn't stalk or watch her. They both keep their distance - something Buffy emphasises to Giles in 'Amends'. She only encounters him by accident in that episode because he's out walking to shake his nightmares.

 

[thetopher]

Why so? Angelus does tell Buffy her boyfriend is dead, but it's probbaly to hurt her. He still goes by Angel most of the time and doesn't really otherwise distinguish himself from his souled self.

I think this is because Angel/us was supposed to die at the end of S2 so thew writers don't particularly bother with the name change, but from S3 on- mainly on his own show- Angelus always distinguishes himself from Angel even when he has no reason to.
In 'Eternity' 'he' states that his name is Angelus and in S4 its very clear that Angelus sees himself as a completely separate entity.
Which makes sense, vampires are people possessed/infected by a demon, but that demon is shaped in some ways by the memories that inhabit the body.

It's worth noting that Angel does not however, distinguish between the two -mostly, he accepts that the demon is inside of him and that 'he' did all those things.

 

[Holden Webster]

I think Angelus originally referred to the Angel of the past, but after Angel loses his soul in modern time and people start considering how it could happen again, it becomes convenient to have a simple shorthand for evil!Angel.

 

[Cheese Slices]

(Totally off-topic but just from looking at the script for that episode again, how would Spike know who Tucker was? He wasn't even around for that episode!)

Before Lovers' Walk, it's Buffy who says in 'Band Candy 'pretty soon you won't need my help anymore', to which Angel replies 'that would be better'. After 'Lover's Walk' he doesn't stalk or watch her. They both keep their distance - something Buffy emphasises to Giles in 'Amends'. She only encounters him by accident in that episode because he's out walking to shake his nightmares.

Thanks for the correction, sometimes I get S2 and S3 mixed up a little. Time for a rewatch.

 

[Dora]

You can have it both ways. The soul does not take away any of Spike's good qualities. It gives him the power to temper the bad ones.

Unfortunately Spike always could make choices that's what makes his abuse of Buffy so bad from holding her hands in bargaining to taking advantage of her when he found she came back wrong

So do you believe that the soul is a separate personality/self which is returned and not just conscience/morality? I don't think he's being shaped by the 'memories' of personality, but the actual personality traits. The demon takes all the base desires, resentments, selfish motivations and without a soul, dials them up to 11. Add in the bloodlust, enjoyment of pain and impulse to murder people and you've got a vampire. So in a sense it is you - but just the worst possible version of you there can be - but at the same time it isn't, because as you and I have both argued, the soul allows that crucial degree of moral choice so IMO the bottom line will always be that it is not your (evil) potential but the choices that you make when the full spectrum of morality is open to you (i.e. soul), that make you who you truly are.

Why so? Angelus does tell Buffy her boyfriend is dead, but it's probbaly to hurt her. He still goes by Angel most of the time and doesn't really otherwise distinguish himself from his souled self. It's just that he resents everything he felt with his soul because he regards it as a weakness: 'she made me feel like a human being'. I'd go as far as to say he can even feel his former love for her, but just cannot understand or handle that feeling so it drives him up the wall.


It wasn't meant to undercut it. I just disagreed that Spike in that particular scene was about him intentionally blaming her. I do think there are occassions where he makes the point about doing it all for her, but here he's saying he understands that Buffy used him because of her own self-hate - which is definitely an improvement on his soulless self where he was convinced she belonged in the darkness with him. I think there is a sort of indirect blame here in the sense that Spike cannot help casting himself in that suffering role, so if we extend that poetic framework to Buffy, puts her in the 'idealised cold mistress' role.

(Totally off-topic but just from looking at the script for that episode again, how would Spike know who Tucker was? He wasn't even around for that episode!)

Before Lovers' Walk, it's Buffy who says in 'Band Candy 'pretty soon you won't need my help anymore', to which Angel replies 'that would be better'. After 'Lover's Walk' he doesn't stalk or watch her. They both keep their distance - something Buffy emphasises to Giles in 'Amends'. She only encounters him by accident in that episode because he's out walking to shake his nightmares.

I dont think Spike was Blaming Buffy I think his evil selfish mind was already playing Buffy , all that crap I did it for you, Buffy never asks him to get a soul. Spike never mentions getting a soul in fact after the trials he says to the demon make me the man I was....he was never a souled Vampire. Telling Buffy etc about the trials was all about Making Buffy feel sympathy for him
You could tell what type of person Spike was when he beat Woods so badly and never apologized about killing his mother

 

[EarthLogic]

makes his abuse of Buffy so bad from holding her hands in bargaining...

What horror! Whenever shall we be rid of this accursed crime of hand holding!!!

 

[Dora]

What horror! Whenever shall we be rid of this accursed crime of hand holding!!!

You know that is not what I meant you are being stupid or trying to be ironic..... just to ridicule me I will go with the first
I was just pointing out that Spike could make choices , he chose to be evil to try to kill again once he thought his Chip had stopped working , He chose to look after Dawn..... then keep Buffy from her , choices, his choice

 

[EarthLogic]

You know that is not what I meant you are being stupid or trying to be ironic..... just to ridicule me I will go with the first
I was just pointing out that Spike could make choices , he chose to be evil to try to kill again once he thought his Chip had stopped working , He chose to look after Dawn..... then keep Buffy from her , choices, his choice

Actually I did not know that as IMO your sentence did not make that distinction clear, so sorry if I misinterpreted. However, I find the tone and language of your response rude and uncivil. If you want people to engage with your arguments I suggest you alter your manner.

 

[Athena]

Let's remember everyone that in the midst of a discussion online words can have multiple meanings. Let's all try to remain civil towards each other and refrain from name calling.

 

[Dora]

Actually I did not know that as IMO your sentence did not make that distinction clear, so sorry if I misinterpreted. However, I find the tone and language of your response rude and uncivil. If you want people to engage with your arguments I suggest you alter your manner.

Then I am sorry , but there was plenty of other things in my post to address like Spike making choices,trying to kill again , I did it for you when he plainly did not , or how her treated Woods

 

[RomanticSoul]

So do you believe that the soul is a separate personality/self which is returned and not just conscience/morality? I don't think he's being shaped by the 'memories' of personality, but the actual personality traits. The demon takes all the base desires, resentments, selfish motivations and without a soul, dials them up to 11. Add in the bloodlust, enjoyment of pain and impulse to murder people and you've got a vampire. So in a sense it is you - but just the worst possible version of you there can be - but at the same time it isn't, because as you and I have both argued, the soul allows that crucial degree of moral choice so IMO the bottom line will always be that it is not your (evil) potential but the choices that you make when the full spectrum of morality is open to you (i.e. soul), that make you who you truly are.

Of course they are shaped by the memories of the person. What else would the demon have access to? The demon gets into the human host, kills the host and thereby releasing the soul and then rises as a human/demon hybrid. But the only thing the demon has access to is the brain, aka where the memories reside. So the demon is shaped by the memories of the human and the feelings the human had in those memories. Because this demon has no personality of it's own, the resulting vampire demon of course feels like an echo and reflection of the former human but it's a twisted version. It is however not the human simply with their conscience removed. Because the demon is a foreign entity. At most the demon is a reflection of the state of mind the human was in at the point of siring, a state of being they will forever be frozen in (because they can't grow and change). Angelus was as vile as he was not because Liam was somehow a monster, Angelus is a reflection of the self-destructive path Liam was on when he was sired. It doesn't tell us anything about the real Liam, hence Angelus is not Liam with his conscience removed.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

But the only thing the demon has access to is the brain, aka where the memories reside. So the demon is shaped by the memories of the human and the feelings the human had in those memories. Because this demon has no personality of it's own, the resulting vampire demon of course feels like an echo and reflection of the former human but it's a twisted version.

That is a radically essentialist idea of the self.

 

[thrasherpix]

Drunk. Alcoholic (drug addict works just as well). I mention those so I can find this thread again in the future the next time a discussion on what a soul is come up (and I want to think about this new interpretation for awhile).

Reading through the last part of this thread this morning, I couldn't help but think of how some describe soulless as I would some people who get drunk. Their personality changes significantly, typically for the worse (and they and others may excuse their behavior as "being drunk"), and they often won't recall much of what they did drunk once sober until they're drunk again as if they're a different person (or say they lost their soul for the moment) that is now dangerous yet still the same person. They need to drink much like how a vampire must struggle with it--heck, hardcore alcoholics who completely stop drinking all of a sudden can actually suffer symptoms similar to Angel when he was locked in that box on the ocean floor, and even die. Even season 7 Spike doesn't mess up that metaphor as he could be the dry drunk. In any case, the metaphor is, at least, no more crude than magic as crack of the previous season.

It suddenly makes more sense now why I had nightmares as a child of my alcoholic parents as vampires.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Drunk. Alcoholic (drug addict works just as well). I mention those so I can find this thread again in the future the next time a discussion on what a soul is come up (and I want to think about this new interpretation for awhile).

Well they always said that was sort of the metaphor with Angel on AtS. The alcoholic who is always in danger of being one drink away from falling back into old habits. Except the metaphor and the literal are different and have to be treated as such. It didn't work for me when they put the metaphor (Angel) on the same level as the literal (Parker) with the 'guy you sleep with that doesn't call'. It doesn't work with the alcoholic metaphor vs literal either. Because it's all about choice. The Parkers and alcoholics of the world have CHOICE. That's the fundamental difference between Angel (or any vampire, except Spike because he is somehow different *shrugs*) and the other cases. Parker chose to be an asshole, Angel didn't chose to lose his soul. An alcoholic can chose not to drink, Angel can't without a soul.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

except Spike because he is somehow different *shrugs*

Is he, though?

Spike's addiction is simply different from Angel's. Spike was rejected by Cecily just before being made into a vampire and by his mother just afterwards. His entire undead existence has been fixated upon rectifying these two events by doing everything to convince or force his chosen woman to accept him. He says himself that he is "love's bitch." Even Spike's seemingly good deeds are motivated by the same need and there is no more choice for him to overcome his nature than there is for any other vampire. Spike's reaction to realising he loves Buffy is horror, because he knows he is now doomed to try to earn her acceptance.

 

[thetopher]

According to the show-runners, Spike is a special vampire.

I don't see any evidence of it myself, and if it were true then he really would be an abhorrent aberration.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Is he, though?

It's touted by the PTB (right down to 'partial soul'). And a lot of fans try to attribute as much humanity as possible to Spike, basically making him 'human' even without a soul. Hell James Marsters once said he played Spike with as much soulfulness as he could despite the fact that his character was SOULLESS.

Spike is IMO a failure on every creative front and the reason why we have the mess we do in regards to souls, vampire demons etc.. James Marsters always played him more sympathetically than he was written (by his own admission), directors didn't stop him from doing that and every writer was allowed his/her own version of Spike. The networks/fans crowning soulless Spike as iconic, hence neither his appearance nor basic character could be changed after getting a soul.