Buffy's Duty

[LadyLavinia]

I have to admit there were times when I found it uncomfortable, when people rushed to admire Buffy for sticking to her duty as Slayer. But I never knew why, until I came upon this paragraph in the article - "Forgiving Spike" by Darklight:

Buffy represents the hero we all admire. Buffy is the bully we all fear. Buffy is the damaged veteran who might go wacko at any moment. Unlike Spike she's too important to be relegated to the shadows but too dangerous to be fully integrated into society, as her problems in school, work and relationships all show. It's-All-About-Me!Buffy is barely tolerable and Strike-First-Think-Later!Buffy is a bomb waiting to go off. Her lack of vulnerability makes her more hero than human, saving more out of duty than empathy. Outside of a small circle of friends what does Buffy really care about anyone? Not much more than Spike does. In Gone invisible Buffy's treatment of people showed her true nature. She teased and tormented and disrupted lives without any guilt at all. She keeps saving the world because it's her duty, not because she cares about the people in it.

I don't know if this passage is completely true, but there seemed to be a strong sense of truth about it. At least to me.

 

[Amber Benson]

I agree with the paragraph somewhat, but not in that harsh a sense. I think that Buffy can be compared to a General in war (As Giles has done), because she HAS to be... I think she truly does care for the good of humanity, because if she didn't then why did she return after Anne? She has to put her choice of caring like a "normal" person on the side because that's the only way to make a true judgement call. That is what makes Buffy so great, that by the end of Season 7, she was able to put her personal feelings aside, and decide with her head, not her heart. She HAD to. More people would have died, and whos to say they would have even beaten the First at all, had she went with her heart. She would be dead, because she would have stayed with Spike. It's a hard life, being the Chosen one, because there are so many choices you have to make. She had to choose not to integrate herself in society. And those family, and school, and love problems... Everyone has those. Some people even have all three (I know I did at one time).

 

[goldenboy]

I've thought about this too over the years. Buffy's fully immersed in the world and loves her friends and family. She's fully human, yet forever removed from her fellow humans to a degree. It's kind of like an involuntary elitism, a classism forced upon her by fate. She's like British royalty. It's genetic. Fully British, yet removed from her subjects. By blood, she must act as a leader and monarch for her people. Or she could abdicate, but she'll always be a royal.

Another thing. Buffy did have moments of despair, wondering why she should bother to help out her fellow humans. She did have doubts when Faith tried to bring her over to the darkside. Maybe she's less human, but I'd say Buffy is ultimately a deeply moral person. Empathy is an emotion, an involuntary reaction. If you act of duty, despite your feelings, that's a deeply moral, selfless act. Because of her power, her morality is tested more than most humans. She has the potential to go all Dark Buffy and act purely out of rage. Hasn't happened yet because her moral compass is intact, not just her empathy.

 

[SlayerThe]

Some people just have it in for the Buffy. I was actually thinking about this earlier.

Buffy represents the hero we all admire. Buffy is the bully we all fear. Buffy is the damaged veteran who might go wacko at any moment.

Buffy is a hero, and with the situations she was put in, she has to be a bully. In times of war you can not have a democracy (like Buffy said), and she was right to assume control since she was the one with the power and experience. And she certainly has to bully demons and humans who have done wrong.

Unlike Spike she's too important to be relegated to the shadows but too dangerous to be fully integrated into society, as her problems in school, work and relationships all show.

I think it is pretty obvious that she is easily accepted in to society as she is smart and beautiful, and we have seen her as popular Buffy and the Buffy that everyone tries to connect to. Personally, I think she has always been the reason why she has never really went out in to the world. And honestly, Buffy's problems with men and life are just like any other girls, except they occasional contain demons, witches, and vampires.

It's-All-About-Me!Buffy is barely tolerable and Strike-First-Think-Later!Buffy is a bomb waiting to go off.

I don't think I can even respond to this as we all know Buffy was truly right through most of Season Seven when the gang was in opposition with her.

Outside of a small circle of friends what does Buffy really care about anyone? Not much more than Spike does. In Gone invisible Buffy's treatment of people showed her true nature. She teased and tormented and disrupted lives without any guilt at all. She keeps saving the world because it's her duty, not because she cares about the people in it.

That is a big laugh.

We've never really seen Buffy with other people outside of the Scoobs, but have seen her show compassion to strangers time and time again.

And I think it's easy to forgive her actions in "Gone" because she was torn out of heaven, and she was just having fun. Any normal person would take advantage of this. You can't be repressed all the time.

If Buffy didn't give a crap about the world, she wouldn't be out there every night risking her life for it. Yes, it is her duty and she does feel obligated, but the girl has a great heart and has time and time again been compassionate to strangers.

Now that may sound like a psychotic Buffy fan and everything, but the girl has good intentions and she shouldn't be foul talked just because we never seen her interact with that many people or because she acted like a kid while invisible after having her life torn apart again and again....

 

[LadyLavinia]

A lot of people keep saying that Buffy has to be . . .

Has to be . . . what? The Slayer? Says who? The Watcher's Council? Giles explained back in Season 1 that it was her destiny to fight vampires, demons and other kinds of evil, etc. But was he really right? As we found out in "Get It Done", it was a group of shamans who created the Slayer line, not the almighty Powers to Be. Even worse, it was obvious that the reason they created the line was to have a strong warrior to fight demons for them - but a warrior whom they believed could be controlled, due to her gender.

Buffy made such a big deal in a speech to the Potentials and the Scoobies in "Chosen" that it was their choiceto help her fight the final battle against the First Evil and the Ubervamps. The Potentials had no choice about their possible roles as Slayers, thanks to the Shadow Whether Buffy and Willow had changed the Slayer line or not, some of them - if not all -would eventually become a Slayer. But what about fighting vampires and other evils? Shouldn't they have a choice in whether they want to take part in such a lifestyle? And shouldn't Buffy have a choice - once she finished organizing the new Slayers - on whether she wants to continue that fight, despite still having Slayer powers?

It's one thing to have powers given to you without your consent or against your will. It's another to have a choice in whether to use those powers or not. In "Spiderman" and "Spiderman 2", we kept hearing the message - "With great powers comes great responsibility." Frankly, I don't buy that. I believe that true responsibility comes in dealing with the choices one makes in life. Buffy and the others never had the choice about becoming a Potential or a Slayer.

Without the Watchers Council looking over her shoulder or her own sense of guilt, I believe that Buffy should one day make the choice - from the heart - whether she really wants to continue slaying vampires and demons. Or whether she wants to do something different with her life.

 

[goldenboy]

"With great power comes great responsibility" I actually do buy that, personally. But it's my act of free will to believe that. The power's not voluntary, but the decision to freely believe and accept that statement is voluntary. You could say that morality and guilt are really just the same thing. Morality is collective guilt. A useful sense of collective guilt that is the only reason humans can live together and not destroy eachother out of selfishness. To follow one's heart could be good or bad. What if murder, deep hatred is really, sincerely in your heart? Morality can override "heart" and keep people alive. Dark Willow's heart overrode Willow's morality and almost destroyed Willow in the process.

OK, let me give it another try. "With great power comes great responsibility". That's not a statement of fact, like the earth revolves around the sun. It's more like and oath, a pact. The Declaration of Independence is a statement of the collective ideals of the American people. We implicitly accept these ideals, or we don't. We could reject them, move to Cuba or whatever.

Buffy can reject that statement too. She has free will. But in doing so, she's sort of rejecting civilization in a sense. She's rejecting the collective moral pact of humanity. Life isn't fair. Not all people are equally gifted. We all do what we're physically capable of doing to promote goodnes and limit evil and suffering. Or at least if you subscribe to the idea that morality is important, you accept that statement as an ideal.

The Watcher's Council at times seem like a bunch of amoral jerks. It's hard to tell if they have ulterior motives or not. It seems like they are in the mode of "the ends justify the means". Better a few slayers and even regular humans suffer and die than an apocalypse starts. Better to sacrifice 10 to save 100. Those are the kind of moral compromises you have to make in wartime. The Watchers see an endless war that we must continue to fight if humanity is to survive. Buffy ultimately rejected them not because they were evil or amoral, but because of strategy. She thought they were out-of-touch fools and she had better solutions regarding tactics and strategy in this war.

 

[LadyLavinia]

"With great power comes great responsibility" I actually do buy that, personally. But it's my act of free will to believe that. The power's not voluntary, but the decision to freely believe and accept that statement is voluntary. You could say that morality and guilt are really just the same thing. Morality is collective guilt. A useful sense of collective guilt that is the only reason humans can live together and not destroy eachother out of selfishness. To follow one's heart could be good or bad. What if murder, deep hatred is really, sincerely in your heart? Morality can override "heart" and keep people alive. Dark Willow's heart overrode Willow's morality and almost destroyed Willow in the process.

OK, let me give it another try. "With great power comes great responsibility". That's not a statement of fact, like the earth revolves around the sun. It's more like and oath, a pact. The Declaration of Independence is a statement of the collective ideals of the American people. We implicitly accept these ideals, or we don't. We could reject them, move to Cuba or whatever.

Buffy can reject that statement too. She has free will. But in doing so, she's sort of rejecting civilization in a sense. She's rejecting the collective moral pact of humanity. Life isn't fair. Not all people are equally gifted. We all do what we're physically capable of doing to promote goodnes and limit evil and suffering. Or at least if you subscribe to the idea that morality is important, you accept that statement as an ideal.

The Watcher's Council at times seem like a bunch of amoral jerks. It's hard to tell if they have ulterior motives or not. It seems like they are in the mode of "the ends justify the means". Better a few slayers and even regular humans suffer and die than an apocalypse starts. Better to sacrifice 10 to save 100. Those are the kind of moral compromises you have to make in wartime. The Watchers see an endless war that we must continue to fight if humanity is to survive. Buffy ultimately rejected them not because they were evil or amoral, but because of strategy. She thought they were out-of-touch fools and she had better solutions regarding tactics and strategy in this war.

I'm sorry goldenboy, but I disagree. I don't believe that Buffy or any other young female HAS TO fight vampires and demons, because a spell created by three shamans over a thousand years ago, gave her the power and strength to fight. That's like being a conscript in an army, in my opinion. Nor do I consider guilt as an excuse to be some kind of Good Samaritan. What I meant by "following one's heart", I meant that if Buffy or anyone has a true desire to help others or fight demons, she should do so. If she doesn't, she should not do it, regardless of her powers. However, following one's heart to deliberately harm someone is not something I would advocate.

How can a person help someone else, if he or she is incapable of helping his or herself? My view might seem selfish, but so what? Sometimes, being selfish is okay. Sometimes, it's not. It depends on the situation.

If Whedon thought it was necessary for Buffy to continue the "good fight", because of her Slayer powers, why did he bother to write that speech that she gave the Scoobies and the Potentials at the end - giving them the choice to fight at her side in that last battle?

 

[goldenboy]

I think the "giving them a choice" idea is saying that everyone, each person must decide for themselves what is the right and moral thing to do. We have free will. We can agree to fight evil or not. Assuming we all agree something is in fact evil. That's my reaction, my personal belief. But maybe Whedon was thinking something else. Don't know.

You're right. Sometimes, you actually can't help. You're not in a position to do anything. Sometimes trying to help when you're sick or injured does no one any good, maybe even does harm. In that case, not taking care of your own needs would be irresponsible. And everyone always has free will, unless you're in a vegetative state or something. You can always abdicate and not do what society agrees is "the responsible thing to do". And thankfully, we have friends and family. We're not in this world by ourselves, even Buffy. Others can sometimes pick up the slack if we want to retire or take a time out. But the basic moral agreement of society never goes away. I guess the main problem is, what if a society can't agree on what constitutes "responsible" or "moral"? And what is guilt? Ulimately just an emotion. Don't know. You can feel guilty for all kinds of reasons. Some would say "you have no reason to feel ashamed" about something, but you do. But it seems like guilt often pushes people in a moral direction. Like the nerve endings in your fingertips push you away from a hot stove. I'm just kinda thinking and typing here. Most everyone ponders and agonizes over responsibility and morality and what it all means, right?

This is really fun by the way. Thanks for replying.

 

[LadyLavinia]

think the "giving them a choice" idea is saying that everyone, each person must decide for themselves what is the right and moral thing to do. We have free will. We can agree to fight evil or not. Assuming we all agree something is in fact evil. That's my reaction, my personal belief. But maybe Whedon was thinking something else. Don't know.

This is what I'm advocating for Buffy and the other Slayers. I believe she and the others have a right to decide what is the right thing for them (forget morality in this situation). Should they fight evil . . . or lead a life of their own choice - even if it includes fighting evil? Having Slayer powers SHOULD NOT decide whether they will fight "evil" or not. It should be a matter of free will or choice.

 

[SpikedBuffy]

I think that she was just doing what she needed to do. She knew her resonsibilties, and she fulfilled them.

Yeah, I think that kind of relates her to a general in the army. Does a general really care about the world outside of keeping his army alive? Probably not.

Therefore, Buffy resembles that. She doesn't care about what's outside her immediate circle, because she is focused on the job at hand. She's doing her job.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I think that she was just doing what she needed to do. She knew her resonsibilties, and she fulfilled them.

Why does having Slayer powers mean that she automatically has a duty to kill vampires? Why should it? Shouldn't Buffy question why she has to automatically accept Giles' word that she has to kill vampires, because she has super powers?

Did Buffy ever choose to accept the responsibilities of being a Slayer? Or was she conscripted into believing this, against her will?


Why is it that every time a fictional character finds out or is given super powers (Buffy, the Charmed Ones, Spiderman), he or she automatically assumes or is told that he/she HAS TO fight evil? That there is no choice in the matter? Why can't any of these shows or movies give these characters a chance to decide whether or not they want to devote their entire lives into fighting evil?

 

[nerd4hire]

Actually...

Spiderman (in the movie anyway) doesn't choose to accept responsibility for what his power can do until his uncle is killed as a result of him ignoring the words of advice he got - "With great power comes great responsibility".

Charmed doesn't even try to explain anything, ever, so what does it matter.

Buffy actually does make a personal choice, and it's shown in the Gift when she tells Giles if Dawn dies, she's out. BTW Faith also makes a choice.

 

[Xander]

Skipping past this argument (cant be bothered to read most of it). Just wanted to comment on the quoted thing at the top. I don't think "Gone" showed Buffy's true self, I think it just showed she was repressed by her pressures and responsibilities, she was having some much deserved fun.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Actually...

Spiderman (in the movie anyway) doesn't choose to accept responsibility for what his power can do until his uncle is killed as a result of him ignoring the words of advice he got - "With great power comes great responsibility".

Charmed doesn't even try to explain anything, ever, so what does it matter.

Buffy actually does make a personal choice, and it's shown in the Gift when she tells Giles if Dawn dies, she's out. BTW Faith also makes a choice.

In other words, Peter Parker chose to become Spiderman due to his guilt over his uncle's death. Is that wise? I don't think so.

That was the only personal choice that Buffy seemed to have ever made. By Season 7, she still believes that she has to be the Slayer because she has no choice.

Faith is very unique among fictional characters with special powers.

 

[nerd4hire]

I'm not sure I understand. Are you angry that the characters don't make choices, or are you angry that they don't make the same choices you would?

 

[SlayerThe]

I find it odd that you guys have not yet addressed what I consider to be the deciding factor:

Buffy fights evil because she is the only one who can.

Granted there are other champions, and sometimes even other slayers out there, a lot of the time the fate of the world solely rests in Buffy's hands.

Did the PTB have any role in creating the slayer? Maybe, maybe not. All we do know is the slayer has existed for thousands of years, kept the balance, and saved the world many times.

And I do think Buffy made a choice the accept this. She could have easily said no to the slaying gig in the very beginning, or in Welcome to the Hellmouth, Prophecy Girl and Anne. But she didn't.

Just because Buffy wasn't always happy being the slayer doesn't mean that she regretted accepting her destiny. And in Helpless, she even stated that she didn't think she could go on living without being the slayer.

So I think she made a choice because she knew she was the one girl that had the power, she felt that it was right, and most importantly she likes helping those who need it.

 

[nerd4hire]

The fact of the matter is Slayers do make a choice. Buffy chose to play the game. Faith chose not to.

Really the only question is, which one made the better choice.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I'm not sure I understand. Are you angry that the characters don't make choices, or are you angry that they don't make the same choices you would?

What makes you think I'm angry?

Buffy fights evil because she is the only one who can.

Actually, this is untrue. Even in Jossverse. What about all those characters who fight evil, but do not possess extra powers?

 

[nerd4hire]

What about all those characters who fight evil, but do not possess extra powers?

Yeah what about those guys? Is it OK for them to choose to fight evil, or is it just Buffy's choice we're supposed to object to?

In fact what exactly is it you're objecting to? I don't get it.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Yeah what about those guys? Is it OK for them to choose to fight evil, or is it just Buffy's choice we're supposed to object to?

I'm objecting to Buffy's choice. Buffy fought evil because she felt that she had no choice, having Slayer powers. And her Watchers, Merrick and Giles, did not make it any easier for her by pestering her with arguments that it was her "destiny" to fight vampire. As it turns out, her "destiny" was the result of a spell cast by the Shadowmen, thousands of years ago. That's not a real choice. At least not in my opinion.

Others like Xander who do not have extra powers had made the choice to fight evil for their own reasons - good or bad.