Buffy's Duty

If you thought this thread was dead, Ha ha ha! I can't keep my nose out! 😉

LadyLavinia said:
I'm objecting to Buffy's choice. Buffy fought evil because she felt that she had no choice, having Slayer powers. And her Watchers, Merrick and Giles, did not make it any easier for her by pestering her with arguments that it was her "destiny" to fight vampire. As it turns out, her "destiny" was the result of a spell cast by the Shadowmen, thousands of years ago. That's not a real choice. At least not in my opinion.

Others like Xander who do not have extra powers had made the choice to fight evil for their own reasons - good or bad.
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So who says Buffy NEVER made a choice to fight demons for her own reasons? I would argue that she made that choice a couple of times. In "Welcome to the Hellmouth" she's the one who seeks Giles out (not initially, obviously) after she sees the dead guy in a locker. Prophecy Girl: not a real choice. She thought she HAD to go down to the Master.

But in Helpless, Buffy begins to see what she would be if she wasn't the Slayer. And she hates it. I think that this (combined with the Council's disregard for her safety and Angel's life) influenced her to make the choice that she did in Graduation Day Part 1. Not only does Buffy reject the Council and their way of doing things, she says, by that action "I'm going to do things differently" (now, if she actually did anything differently is another discussion) She didn't say "Screw this, I'm not going to fight evil anymore" instead she said "I'm not fighting on your antiquated terms any more" and that is a very different thing. I would argue that GD1 is the last time Buffy really makes that choice to be the Slayer and to fight evil. Later, at the end of Season 6 she has to make the choice to be herself again, but by then, being the Slayer is so much a part of how she sees herself, that it's part of the package.

hope all that made some kind of sense...I'm trying to avoid going to bed! 😉
 
nerd4hire
nerd4hire
[No message]
Yeah. I agree. Then there's the part in The Gift where she tells Giles if Dawn dies she's out.

Buffy was making choices all the time; whether or not she'd slay, and on what terms. The whole Faith-Buffy feud was about which was the right choice. Buffy almost slipped into Faith's self-destruct mode, but in the end she "chose" not to. Her choices were personal ones taking into consideration the input of others, but in the end the choices were her own.

I don't see how that's even a question.

I mean unless the idea is Buffy made the wrong choice by choosing to be the responsible one. In which case...huh?
 
Being the responsible one? How does slaying vampires and demons, because one acquires super strength against one's will, through some spell cast by shamans over a thousand years ago - make one responsible? That's ridiculous. That's like being a draftee in the army. And personally, I have a thing against being put into a dangerous situation through pressure from external forces (authority figures). I don't believe in military conscription. Or being conscripted into fighting supernatural forces. If Buffy had made the choice to slay without any outside pressure from anyone and had stuck with it - then I would call her responsible.


But in Helpless, Buffy begins to see what she would be if she wasn't the Slayer. And she hates it. I think that this (combined with the Council's disregard for her safety and Angel's life) influenced her to make the choice that she did in Graduation Day Part 1. Not only does Buffy reject the Council and their way of doing things, she says, by that action "I'm going to do things differently" (now, if she actually did anything differently is another discussion) She didn't say "Screw this, I'm not going to fight evil anymore" instead she said "I'm not fighting on your antiquated terms any more" and that is a very different thing.
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Yet near the end of S7 in "Touched", she was still expressing her dislike of Slayer duties to Spike. That scene alone told me that Buffy has only been a Slayer out of some misguided belief that she had no choice. She didn't make the choice to be a Slayer from the heart. And in my opinion, that is more important than if she had made such a choice, because she believed that she had no choice but to comply.


I sometimes get the feeling that author/historian, Thomas Fleming was right. That many humans (including Americans) may believe in freedom, but they also believe in submitting to authority without any question.
 
Another couple of examples of Buffy "choosing" whether or not to accept the responsibilities of being the Slayer, would be at the end of Becoming 2 when she chooses not to be the Slayer, and at the end of Anne when she chooses once more to accept the burden.

You know I've seen a lot of support on this thread for the idea Buffy chooses to accept the Slayer's responsibilities. I haven't seen one tiny fragment of evidence that would suggest Buffy is as LL says, "drafted" against her will.
 
Why is it less valid for Buffy to have made a choice to continue slaying, even though she started out doing it because it was her "duty"? Just because she was a young girl who allowed herself to be influenced into doing something, doesn't mean that she cant make an educated, valid choice later on, when she's better informed and stronger in her convictions. Just because that choice is to continue in the work that she was originally "conscripted" into, does that make that choice less heroic or strong or responsible? I don't think so.

And as for Buffy not liking her Slayer duties, I'm sure I wouldn't like giving up my nights to walk the town, possibly staking vampires, possibly not meeting a single threat. Just because she doesn't enjoy patrolling doesn't mean that she doesn't believe in what she's doing. Real life parallel: My fiance is training to be a Marine Corps Officer. He HATES PTing, drilling, hates the idea of deployments, etc, etc. That doesn't mean that he doesn't believe in his job. Quite the opposite. He and Buffy overcome their dislike of those mundane parts of the job, because they believe in what they're doing.

That doesn't mean that Buffy couldn't have made her choice "from the heart". In fact, I would argue that that means her choice couldn't have come from anywhere else. The intellectual who was trying to make the choice "from the head" would say "hmm, no pay, no benefits, early death, frequent bruising, cranky monsters. No, I don't think I'll continue to do this." Whereas Buffy simply says "I believe that this is the right thing to do."
 
Buffy's decision as to whether or not be the Slayer was a choice from the first episode of BTVS.

In Welcome to the Hellmouth, she wasn't going to do the Slayer thing. She "chose" to pick up the stake so to speak, because if she didn't innocents such as Xander, Willow, and Jesse would be in danger from evil only she was equipped to deal with at the time.
 
i agree with the article partly. you got to see how buffy was before she was called in becoming. can you imagine that totally shallow, self centred girl taking it upon herself to help anyone if she didnt have to?
however, becoming the slayer changed her. she does want to help. she has had opportunities to give up before. for example at the end of season 7 when the girls chose faith over her. but she realised they needed her help.
if left to her own devices, she would never have become what she is now. but i do believe she does help because she cares. despite having her off days. but who doesnt?

does that make any sense to anyone besides me?
 
nerd4hire
nerd4hire
Sure. Makes sense to me.
nerd4hire said:
Another couple of examples of Buffy "choosing" whether or not to accept the responsibilities of being the Slayer, would be at the end of Becoming 2 when she chooses not to be the Slayer, and at the end of Anne when she chooses once more to accept the burden.

You know I've seen a lot of support on this thread for the idea Buffy chooses to accept the Slayer's responsibilities. I haven't seen one tiny fragment of evidence that would suggest Buffy is as LL says, "drafted" against her will.
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Watch the original movie. Watch the first two episodes of the series. And watch how both Merrick and Giles continue to hound Buffy about accepting the duties of the Slayer, throwing in words like "destiny" and such. If Buffy had been an adult, she would have told them to take a walk. Yet, because she was a teenager, she eventually buckled under the guilt from their arguments. It's one thing if Buffy just accidently came across someone being threatened by a vampire or wanted to help a friend. But instead, she patrols the town every night like some cop on the job. And Giles - who is definitely NOT her real parent figure - is allowed to exert his authority over her, by curtailing her private life.

Everyone keeps bringing up these examples of Buffy's "choices", yet continue to ignore her attitude toward slaying that was expressed as late as "Touched". Why is that?

Why do people prefer the idea of Buffy adhering to Slayer duties like glue, instead of making an atempt to lead her own life? Is it a comic book hero mentality among the show's viewers?


I still believe that Buffy only slayed vampires out of a sense of duty. Because she believed that she had no choice. Many might find that admirable. I don't.
 
I'll agree that Buffy began slaying because she thought she had to. But why does that make her later choices to contiue less valid? Are fictional characers not allowed to develop and change? that would make for very boring television
As for Touched, here's the quote I think you're reffering too:
BUFFY
Casualties"¦ it just sounds so casual. These are girls. That I got killed. (beat) I cut myself off from them, all of them. I knew I was going to lose some of them and I didn't"¦ You know what? I'm still making excuses. I've always cut
myself off, I've always"¦ being the Slayer made me different but it's my fault I stayed that way. People are always trying to connect to me but I just"¦ slip away. (beat) You should know.
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If you look at what she's actually saying, rather than what you want to hear, you can see that Buffy is no longer complaining about being the Slayer. She's complaining about being a general. She's always risked her own life above others, and she doesn't like that she's having to make decisions that mean other people die. And she's complaining about how she isolates herself, which she says herself isn't because she's the Slayer.

By the time Buffy gets to The Gift, she is old enough, and strong enough to make a choice not to continue: and she does. She tells Giles that if Dawn dies, she's out. She leaps from the tower, not only to save Dawn, but because she's finished. The whole of Season 6 includes Buffy choosing, not only to be the Slayer again, but to be HERSELF again. Her friends forced her back into this world, but she's the one who has to live in it. And that process begins at the end of As You Were and finishes in Grave. She takes her power back, and in Chosen she decides to share it. I say that's come a long way from the shallow girl who had never hit anyone before and 'didn't even break a nail".

I would argue that keeping Buffy in the mold of the movie and the first two episodes and not acknowledging her choices does her character a disservice: Buffy is just a dynamic a character as any in TV, movies or literature, (more than some) and ignoring that is ignoring the point of the show.

Oh, and PS: How can you say Giles isn't a parental figure? Did we watch the same show? Sorry, that's off-topic.
 
nerd4hire
nerd4hire
Yeah that Giles comment made me scratch my head too.
And another thing about the Touched Scene. Ultimately Buffy once more made a choice. She considered Spike's input, then she made a choice. It was an interesting choice too, because it was one contrary to the one her Watcher wanted her to make.

Buffy makes that kind of decision all the time, because even though she considers what others tell her, in the end she's her own boss.

I don't think railing againt the ignorance of anyone who doesn't see things your way is going to convince me othewise LL.

If you want to try to actually make something like a convincing arguement though, it's real simple. Post at least one fact that supports your arguement Buffy is forced to be the Slayer. She may be influenced, but she's never been forced.
 
nerd4hire said:
And another thing about the Touched Scene. Ultimately Buffy once more made a choice. She considered Spike's input, then she made a choice. It was an interesting choice too, because it was one contrary to the one her Watcher wanted her to make.

Buffy makes that kind of decision all the time, because even though she considers what others tell her, in the end she's her own boss.

I don't think railing againt the ignorance of anyone who doesn't see things your way is going to convince me othewise LL.

If you want to try to actually make something like a convincing arguement though, it's real simple. Post at least one fact that supports your arguement Buffy is forced to be the Slayer. She may be influenced, but she's never been forced.
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Nerd4hire, this is my last word on this issue.

I am trying to point out that Buffy's choice to be a Slayer was never one of complete free will. Because of her age, personal guilt, and the powers she found herself with, she had allowed herself to be convinced by her two Watchers that she had no choice but to be something that she obviously disliked being - mainly a vampire slayer. She did not choose to become this because she enjoyed the work or out of some pure desire from the heart to save others from death. She honestly believed that she had no choice - even after she broke from the Watchers Council. I also pointed out that her attitude in an episode as late as "Touched" pointed this out, but you seemed to want to simply the fact that because she continued to deal with the matter of the First Evil, she truly made the choice to fight evil from her heart - instead of just simply believing that she had no choice but to finish what had started.

Everyone wants to view Buffy as some special heroine who had adhered to her duty and kicked evil butt. I prefer to view Buffy as a girl-turned-woman, who had to learn to live for herself and not give in to pressure from others to live up to their expectations, or revolve her life around them.

When the day comes that Buffy decides to continue fighting vampires and demons - because she genuinely wants to, instead out of some feeling that she has no other choice - is the day I will truly feel proud of her. And I believe that her "cookie dough" speech to Angel was the beginning of that particular road for Buffy.
 
LadyLavinia said:
Nerd4hire, this is my last word on this issue.

I am trying to point out that Buffy's choice to be a Slayer was never one of complete free will.
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I'm sorry to hear that. I was just getting warmed up. 🙂

At least we've been able to convince you Buffy did make choices. We're part way there.

Buffy did choose to accept the responsibilities of the slayer. Faith chose not to. They both accepted the information and influences offered by their environment. They offered them up for internal arguements in their psyches and made their decisions.

Throughout the series Buffy ultimately chose to accept Slayer responsibilities. Faith at first did not. Which Slayer made the better decisions is up to the viewer to decide.
 
I respect that you might not want to argue this anymore LL, but I have got to get my last two cents in:

How can you hold the fact that Buffy never made a choice to be a Slayer "of complete free will" against her when almost no human being on this earth ever does? Everyone is influenced by parents, by friends, by teachers, by hormones, by teammates or bosses or government or some external force to make choices and sometimes to choose to do something that they wouldn't have chosen to do on their own. That doesn't mean that that choice isn't the best one for them or anyone else. Just for instance: I never wanted to be a political science major until my advisor and my dad convinced me to take a poli sci class. I just declared poli sci last week. Not because anyone told me too, but because someone started me on that road, and I found that it was the BEST one for me. now, I know that that's a little different than choosing to save the world form legions of the undead, but hey, what I'm trying to say here is that ideas and choices do not spring fully formed from the mind of any person. Just because Buffy was influenced in her choices does not make them any less valid, important or real for her. Now if someone had held a gun to her head (or Dawn's) and said "Slay demons" or something, yeah I would agree that she had been forced into it. But Buffy makes choices at every turn, and they are no less valid or right than...say Willow's choice ot stay in Sunndydale when she could have gone just about anywhere and done anything. Willow didn't make that choice uninfluenced either. Do you think she would have stayed in a one-horse, party-school town like Sunnydale if Buffy hadn't been there, if fighting evil hadn't given her such a sense of power? No. She would have gone to Cambridge or Harvard or MIT or that German polytechnic istitute. Is that choice, which is essentially the same as Buffy's any MORE valid or better? I don't think so.

In fact the only people that I would argue have ever been FORCED into fighting demons are the Intiative agents. Essentially, they would HAVE to join up once they were told what it was all about or else their military careers were over. Since the US government doesn't have one of those flashy things from MiB, they'd be under strict gag orders for the rest of their lives and could never ever claim "offered a job as a Secret Government Monster Fighter" on their resume, and they would have to explain where they were for however long preliminary training was to any future CO. 6-12 weeks unaccounted for in any US Servicemember's record is a very bad thing. Plus, once they were in, who knows what those drugs they were on actually did to them. They could have been mind-altering for all we know.
 
Anchovy said:
I respect that you might not want to argue this anymore LL, but I have got to get my last two cents in:

How can you hold the fact that Buffy never made a choice to be a Slayer "of complete free will" against her when almost no human being on this earth ever does? Everyone is influenced by parents, by friends, by teachers, by hormones, by teammates or bosses or government or some external force to make choices and sometimes to choose to do something that they wouldn't have chosen to do on their own. That doesn't mean that that choice isn't the best one for them or anyone else. Just for instance: I never wanted to be a political science major until my advisor and my dad convinced me to take a poli sci class. I just declared poli sci last week. Not because anyone told me too, but because someone started me on that road, and I found that it was the BEST one for me. now, I know that that's a little different than choosing to save the world form legions of the undead, but hey, what I'm trying to say here is that ideas and choices do not spring fully formed from the mind of any person. Just because Buffy was influenced in her choices does not make them any less valid, important or real for her. Now if someone had held a gun to her head (or Dawn's) and said "Slay demons" or something, yeah I would agree that she had been forced into it. But Buffy makes choices at every turn, and they are no less valid or right than...say Willow's choice ot stay in Sunndydale when she could have gone just about anywhere and done anything. Willow didn't make that choice uninfluenced either. Do you think she would have stayed in a one-horse, party-school town like Sunnydale if Buffy hadn't been there, if fighting evil hadn't given her such a sense of power? No. She would have gone to Cambridge or Harvard or MIT or that German polytechnic istitute. Is that choice, which is essentially the same as Buffy's any MORE valid or better? I don't think so.

In fact the only people that I would argue have ever been FORCED into fighting demons are the Intiative agents. Essentially, they would HAVE to join up once they were told what it was all about or else their military careers were over. Since the US government doesn't have one of those flashy things from MiB, they'd be under strict gag orders for the rest of their lives and could never ever claim "offered a job as a Secret Government Monster Fighter" on their resume, and they would have to explain where they were for however long preliminary training was to any future CO. 6-12 weeks unaccounted for in any US Servicemember's record is a very bad thing. Plus, once they were in, who knows what those drugs they were on actually did to them. They could have been mind-altering for all we know.
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I still believe that Buffy was subconsciously forced to accept her role as the Slayer. And after 6 or 7 years, she honestly believed that she still had no choice (when in reality, she did). How else can you explain her continuing hostility toward the role as late as Season 7?


I get the feeling that no one wants to accept that Buffy believes that she has no choice in the matter, because that is not the accepted behavior of a "hero". And I suspect that it is more important to a lot of fans that Buffy would want to be a hero or maintain a heroic persona, instead of being a young woman with a life of her own.

By the way, I changed my mind about not responding.

It is important to a lot of people that there are heroes - whether in real life or in fiction. This is something I find . . . rather odd.

Fantasy Heroes


Hero Worship
 
Welcome back LL. 🙂

Actually people choose to believe Buffy had choice, because she did, as has been shown above with so many examples I can't count them all off the top of my head. We're still waiting for one example that shows she didn't.

BTW, what exactly does "subconsciously forced" mean?

I'm wondering about something. You remember the alternative reality Buffy in The Wish? She didn't have much connection with her watcher. She didn't appear to have the sense of duty our Buffy does. She seemed to just slay, because she wanted to kill stuff. Was that more like the Buffy you wanted to see?
 
nerd4hire said:
Welcome back LL. 🙂

Actually people choose to believe Buffy had choice, because she did, as has been shown above with so many examples I can't count them all off the top of my head. We're still waiting for one example that shows she didn't.

BTW, what exactly does "subconsciously forced" mean?

I'm wondering about something. You remember the alternative reality Buffy in The Wish? She didn't have much connection with her watcher. She didn't appear to have the sense of duty our Buffy does. She seemed to just slay, because she wanted to kill stuff. Was that more like the Buffy you wanted to see?
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Why would you think I want to see that when I never said so?

What is so wrong with Buffy making a decision - without Giles or any other Watcher to hound her about duty - NOT to assume Slayer duties? Why is it so important that she revolves her life around being a Slayer?
 
LadyLavinia said:
What is so wrong with Buffy making a decision - without Giles or any other Watcher to hound her about duty - NOT to assume Slayer duties? Why is it so important that she revolves her life around being a Slayer?
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Well, you can't necessarily say that. Just because her calling was forced upon her, it doesn't mean that Buffy genuinely didn't want to help other people.

Yes, Buffy was somewhat forced in to being the slayer, but aren't there many examples of when she profoundly embodied a true hero?

What I'm trying to say is that even though being the slayer is an obligation, it doesn't mean that you don't embrace that obligation or feel burdened by it. During much of the time, Buffy and Faith had other people's interest when doing their job. Look at Faith helping out when no one cared for her, maybe it was redemption, but she knew the good side needed help. Buffy couldn't bear not being able to help the innocent.

Just because these girls are compelled to be the slayer doesn't mean that there isn't something in them that genuinely loves to help those who actually need it. Maybe that's the reason why they're the slayers: not just the genetic capability of being a potential, but because of their souls.

And if your going with this whole "duty-bound" thing, don't think that Giles and the Scoobies can be excluded from this. Time and time again I've heard posters say that they think Willow and Xander are more noble than Faith and Buffy because they chose to help, they weren't forced in to it. But yet a slayer does not have to accept her duty. Yes, she would be under the watch of the Council, but slayers have ran away before as Buffy and Faith did; however, they came back. When they left, nothing was pressuring them to come back. Sure they ran in to the occasional baddies, but they came back.

Obligation is a key part in Buffy's role as a slayer, but choice played an even bigger part.
 
I'm gone for months, and you're all still having the same argument.


Everyone wants to view Buffy as some special heroine who had adhered to her duty and kicked evil butt. I prefer to view Buffy as a girl-turned-woman, who had to learn to live for herself and not give in to pressure from others to live up to their expectations, or revolve her life around them.
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I think the answer is more of a combination of the two. I'm leaning more toward the "She made a choice" option because we've seen another slayer, Faith, make the choice not to fight for good. Of course, you could argue that she wasn't influenced by her watcher and friends as much as Buffy was...

What is so wrong with Buffy making a decision - without Giles or any other Watcher to hound her about duty - NOT to assume Slayer duties?
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LadyLavina, I think the reason people don't understand your questions is because although you seem to enjoy the show, you act like the core concepts are stupid and think that the heroes aren't really heroes at all. Buffy would have been a coward NOT to assume Slayer duties and I doubt you can say anything to change my opinion on that. Heroes are not people who do whatever the hell they want to do, no matter the consequences, they are the people who do their duty even if they don't want to.

Did Buffy have a choice? Yes. Was she influenced by her friends and the Council? Yes. Did she genuinely want to help people? Based on her actions in "Anne," I'm leaning toward yes.
 
The Wish is worth bringing up again, I think, because it tells us some key stuff as pertains to all this.

It shows us what happens to Buffy if you take the positive influence of Giles and Scoobs away from her.

It shows us SlayerThe was correct when he said, "only Buffy could do the job".

In Welcome to the Hellmouth Buffy learned both these lessons. She learned she was needed, and she learned the influence of the scoobs was worth having around. She chose to accept the responsibilities of the Slayer. She chose to accept the help offered her, and she chose to listen to the advice of those that earned her respect.

So if she made the wrong decision in doing all that, what was the right one? Should she have become Cleveland Buffy?

As FatElvis pointed out, she tried the choice of non-slay Buffy in Anne. That choice didn't work for her either. Ultimately she would always have to help, because that was who she was. She couldn't be non-slay Buffy and still be Buffy. Should she have chosen not to behave according to her self-image? Why? What was wrong with it?

Should she have been solitary-slayer Buffy, refusing to accept help and input from those that offered it. She'd tried that in Season 7. It didn't work. Ultimately she chose to go back to what had always worked for her, and share her power with her team. That worked.

I mean unless you're saying she just didn't have a choice. If that's the case, then why does she keep making choices? You're asking me to believe 1 + 1 = 265. 1 + 1 = 2 logic tells us Buffy kept making choices, therefore she had choices to make.

Unless your telling us Buffy made the wrong choice in choosing what always worked best for her, in which case what would have been a better choice?
 
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