Buffy's plan in "Chosen"...

[Red Sox Nation]

would have killed everyone, even though they made the Ubervamps a lot less strong, there was no way anyone would have made it out alive without Wolfram & Hart's amulet.

I do love Ats more than Btvs, but I think the ending didn't do the show justice, they used a plot device to get Spike in Ats (he was awesome in it by the way), but it would have been better if they had a plan that would have actually worked, Buffy's plan looked useless, & it looked even more useless by Ats S5, & it looked actually harmful in Btvs S8.

 

[caitaintdead]

Oh God. So many massive holes in the Chosen plan. Why pair up Dawn and Xander? Why pair up Anya and Andrew? More importantly why didn't they just put some slayers up there? Leave one potential per 'exit'. Also, I never really got the exit thing anyway. Why wouldn't they just block the exits? Or just throw a gigantic bomb down there and let it detonate. Ahh well. Thankfully it's just TV.

 

[The Unspoken]

Don't think too hard about it - or at all. Just enjoy the pretty pictures. 🙂

 

[Red Sox Nation]

I don't have to actually think hard, everytime I watch "Home" & "Chosen", its always Wolfram & Hart (or Lindsay), Angel, & Spike that actually saved the day, not Buffy & her plan.

 

[white avenger]

Every time that I watch that episode, I wonder just what Joss was smoking when he wrote it. He's a good writer, tells a heck of a great story on the large scale, but if you start analyzing the small, and sometimes not so small details, it becomes very apparent that Buffy isn't completely over her Slayer's Death Wish stage just yet. And she's little if any better a tactician by the end of Season 8. Angel is just as bad, if not worse, in "Not Fade Away." The only way that I can figure that he managed to lead his army so well in Season 8 is that he must have allowed the General and his staff to plan and execute the battles, while Angel, himself, strutted and postured like a black peacock in order to distract Buffy. (Which in no way absolves him from one single iota of responsibility for, or guilt from, all of the death and destruction that took place in Season 8)

 

[StarSlayer]

Oh God. So many massive holes in the Chosen plan. Why pair up Dawn and Xander? Why pair up Anya and Andrew? More importantly why didn't they just put some slayers up there? Leave one potential per 'exit'. Also, I never really got the exit thing anyway. Why wouldn't they just block the exits? Or just throw a gigantic bomb down there and let it detonate. Ahh well. Thankfully it's just TV.

Lol, if we really want to get into the nitty gritty of it...

I think Xander and Dawn were paired because they were like the regular outsiders with the Scoobies. Dawn may usually be in the background, but she still fought. She wasn't a "potential," but she still was "extraordinary" and Xander saw it. And as Dawn said, that was Xander's power...he was the "seer" of the group. Buffy also wanted Xander to protect Dawn. She trusted him. I think some part of Buffy didn't know if she would make it out alive, so she wanted to make sure Xander looked out for Dawn. So, I liked Xander and Dawn fighting together. 🙂

I think Anya and Andrew were paired because they kind of had an interesting friendship building in s7. Anya didn't understand why humans fight and kill each other, but she found it impressive that they never quit. Andrew wanted to go out as one of those humans that Anya found heroic, but the way the episode played out was the total opposite. Anya became one of those humans who never quit, and she died in the process. With Andrew, he questioned why he didn't die. Why didn't the guy who thought he wasn't important, who thought no one really cared about, and who thought had no more purpose in life end up living? Maybe it's because he does have a purpose...to keep on living and to keep on fighting. Just like those crazy humans do. In that sense, I liked their pairing.

With putting some slayers up there, I think (for viewing purposes) they just wanted all the slayers to be fighting side by side. It was pretty epic IMO. 🙂 And this is Buffy, not military Riley. Since when does she throw a bomb to get the job done, lol?

 

[Red Sox Nation]

Every time that I watch that episode, I wonder just what Joss was smoking when he wrote it. He's a good writer, tells a heck of a great story on the large scale, but if you start analyzing the small, and sometimes not so small details, it becomes very apparent that Buffy isn't completely over her Slayer's Death Wish stage just yet. And she's little if any better a tactician by the end of Season 8. Angel is just as bad, if not worse, in "Not Fade Away." The only way that I can figure that he managed to lead his army so well in Season 8 is that he must have allowed the General and his staff to plan and execute the battles, while Angel, himself, strutted and postured like a black peacock in order to distract Buffy. (Which in no way absolves him from one single iota of responsibility for, or guilt from, all of the death and destruction that took place in Season 8)

both Buffy & Angel were bad leaders in the last season of both shows, I don't know how Whedon escaped of letting the plans look legit. Buffy's plan to go to the vinyard would have killed a bunch of slayers again, she got to the scythe because she was alone & managed to outmaneuver Caleb, & her plan to take on thousands of Ubervamps using 20-30 slayers was even worse. same thing for Angel's plan to take on the circle of the black thorn, the plan managed to kill Wesley, hurt Gunn so badly, & it had no purpose.

I'm not gonna get into the comics, I've read parts of them, but they're so bad, everyone is out of character & the storyline really sucks.

 

[Icarium]

And this is Buffy, not military Riley. Since when does she throw a bomb to get the job done, lol?

The Judge rings any bells?

I think it's pointless to discuss the plan in Chosen since Joss himself admit it made no sense but he was only interested in the empowerment metaphor, not the actual battle. What a hack.

Angel is just as bad, if not worse, in "Not Fade Away.

Angel had no illusions he was going to win, he wanted Wolfram and Hart revealed to the world. Buffy on the other hand thought a bunch of Slayers were somehow going to destroy thousands of Ubies, never mind she barely managed to kill even one.

 

[Red Sox Nation]

The Judge rings any bells?

I think it's pointless to discuss the plan in Chosen since Joss himself admit it made no sense but he was only interested in the empowerment metaphor, not the actual battle. What a hack.



Angel had no illusions he was going to win, he wanted Wolfram and Hart revealed to the world. Buffy on the other hand thought a bunch of Slayers were somehow going to destroy thousands of Ubies, never mind she barely managed to kill even one.

I do think Angel's plan was bad, but I agree that it wasn't as bad as Buffy's plan in "Chosen".

 

[caitaintdead]

Since when does she throw a bomb to get the job done, lol?

The Judge rings any bells?

What she ^ said 🙂

Also, I understand why (plot wise) they put the people they put together. I just mean in reality it wouldn't make sense.

 

[StarSlayer]

The Judge rings any bells?

Wasn't that a rocket launcher though? 😉 Still, she had the scythe. That was her weapon of choice now.

I think it's pointless to discuss the plan in Chosen since Joss himself admit it made no sense but he was only interested in the empowerment metaphor, not the actual battle. What a hack.

For me, it made sense and I liked the metaphor, so I'm happy. 🙂 I don't usually dwell on things that may not make logical sense, unless it's something that really bugs me. "Chosen" didn't, so I love the episode.

---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------

Also, I understand why (plot wise) they put the people they put together. I just mean in reality it wouldn't make sense.

If I said that for every TV show or movie I watched, I probably wouldn't enjoy them half as much as I do, lol! 😀

 

[Red Sox Nation]

Wasn't that a rocket launcher though? 😉 Still, she had the scythe. That was her weapon of choice now.



For me, it made sense and I liked the metaphor, so I'm happy. 🙂 I don't usually dwell on things that may not make logical sense, unless it's something that really bugs me. "Chosen" didn't, so I love the episode.

---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------



If I said that for every TV show or movie I watched, I probably wouldn't enjoy them half as much as I do, lol! 😀

I understand if you liked the episode (I kinda liked it, but hated the plot holes), but creating a plot hole & admitting it is poor writing.

 

[Willow My Love]

I like that Willow glows. That's all I like about this episode. It makes me sad.

 

[Red Sox Nation]

I like that Willow glows. That's all I like about this episode. It makes me sad.

on my first watch I thought she was gonna fade after executing that spell.

StarSlayer agrees: I could care less though if Joss or the writers admitted it was poor writing honestly.

Yeah, but that's not why I posted this thread. the ending doesn't give the show its duo, it gives credit to an evil law firm from the spinoff show rather than giving credit to Buffy.

 

[Angelic Slayer]

I never thought about it before, but I guess when you take into consideration that Buffy didn't know what the amulet does it wasn't a very promising plan. The slayer-team downstairs was outnumbered, and the gang upstairs weren't exactly the most fierce warriors to be taking on ubervamps by any means. But then again, maybe we're not giving Buffy enough credit for this one. Here, I'll explain...

Giles, Xander, Willow and Anya-- these are people that Buffy's spent the last 7 years fighting beside and who have obviously (over the years) learned to take care of themselves in a fight. They survived the battle at Sunnydale High, the Initiative, Glory and worse coming after them.... maybe Buffy wasn't so crazy for trusting that they could take on a few ubervamps each with some preparation.

And when you think about the couples that they had set up on the main floor, it would make sense to put a "vetran scoobie" at each exit. The scoobies weren't *all that* famillar with Wood or Andrew since they're new to the season (and Buffy was clearly concerned for Dawn's safety) so perhaps she wanted to have someone she trusts to look after the exits upstairs. Someone who knew the kind of hell Sunnydale could dish out first-hand to look after the new characters.

Now for the basement crew, Buffy did have the plan to activate a whole lot of slayers. And okay, it looks like they're still outnumbered. But let's remember some of the impossible odds that Buffy had taken on over the series... and won. She found a way to take out a gymnasium full of vamps at her old school, killed a gang of demons in a hell dimension at age 17 ("Anne", Season 3) and has taken on powerful vampires more than once (The Master, Angelus, Dracula). If that's the kind of odds that one young Slayer can face alone: a team of two trained slayers, a deadly vampire and a dozen new slayers may have stood more of a chance than we give them credit for. Especially with an uber-powerful witch upstairs, who presumably could have joined in the fight later on if needs had be'd.

 

[Red Sox Nation]

I never thought about it before, but I guess when you take into consideration that Buffy didn't know what the amulet does it wasn't a very promising plan. The slayer-team downstairs was outnumbered, and the gang upstairs weren't exactly the most fierce warriors to be taking on ubervamps by any means. But then again, maybe we're not giving Buffy enough credit for this one. Here, I'll explain...

Giles, Xander, Willow and Anya-- these are people that Buffy's spent the last 7 years fighting beside and who have obviously (over the years) learned to take care of themselves in a fight. They survived the battle at Sunnydale High, the Initiative, Glory and worse coming after them.... maybe Buffy wasn't so crazy for trusting that they could take on a few ubervamps each with some preparation.

And when you think about the couples that they had set up on the main floor, it would make sense to put a "vetran scoobie" at each exit. The scoobies weren't *all that* famillar with Wood or Andrew since they're new to the season (and Buffy was clearly concerned for Dawn's safety) so perhaps she wanted to have someone she trusts to look after the exits upstairs. Someone who knew the kind of hell Sunnydale could dish out first-hand to look after the new characters.

Now for the basement crew, Buffy did have the plan to activate a whole lot of slayers. And okay, it looks like they're still outnumbered. But let's remember some of the impossible odds that Buffy had taken on over the series... and won. She found a way to take out a gymnasium full of vamps at her old school, killed a gang of demons in a hell dimension at age 17 ("Anne", Season 3) and has taken on powerful vampires more than once (The Master, Angelus, Dracula). If that's the kind of odds that one young Slayer can face alone: a team of two trained slayers, a deadly vampire and a dozen new slayers may have stood more of a chance than we give them credit for. Especially with an uber-powerful witch upstairs, who presumably could have joined in the fight later on if needs had be'd.

I understand your point, but its next to impossible for 20 slayers to fight thousands of Ubervamps, an ideal matchup would be a slayer for each 3 ubervamps, I'll be kind & raise the matchup to a slayer for each 10 ubervamps, & it would still be impossible to take thousands of Ubervamps, if you watch the episode again, you can see by the end that the Uberz started winning, & the amulet started doing its job just in time for the endless vamps, it was pretty obvious that without the amulet, everyone would die, as the Slayers started dying & the Ubervamps weren't even close to being done.

 

[Carrrrgh]

The one thing I keep on thinking about in this episode is how unnecessary it was to kill spike. Why didn't they just blockade all the exits from the hellmouth and then blow the top off the school so the actual sun would kill all the uber vamps. That amulet was not cool they shouldn't have killed spike he did so many good things in the last few seasons that he really deserved to be redeemed and not killed fo his actions. There are tons of other ways they could have successfully blown up the hellmouth it's just so frustrating they chose the poetic route and had to kill spike.

 

[Red Sox Nation]

The one thing I keep on thinking about in this episode is how unnecessary it was to kill spike. Why didn't they just blockade all the exits from the hellmouth and then blow the top off the school so the actual sun would kill all the uber vamps. That amulet was not cool they shouldn't have killed spike he did so many good things in the last few seasons that he really deserved to be redeemed and not killed fo his actions. There are tons of other ways they could have successfully blown up the hellmouth it's just so frustrating they chose the poetic route and had to kill spike.

they killed him because they wanted him on Angel, though I agree that they could have found other ways to get him on Angel, they just backed themselves into a corner when they had Buffy have a dream of thousands of Ubervamps, there was no possible way to kill them without the amulet.

 

[Carrrrgh]

they killed him because they wanted him on Angel, though I agree that they could have found other ways to get him on Angel, they just backed themselves into a corner when they had Buffy have a dream of thousands of Ubervamps, there was no possible way to kill them without the amulet.

I am currently watching season one of angel. I never watched it while it was on the air so when I get to the season when spike comes back I'm sure I will be very happy cause I miss spikey. But back to the last episode I just really think spike deserved to live even if Buffy didn't know about it and he just left without telling her he made it out alive lol I just really don't think he should have died. Thinking about it though there I no way spike was going to willingly leave Buffy If he had lived so if killing him ws the only way tk get him to angel then whateverr at least he's not really dead

 

[fly on the wall]

The one thing I keep on thinking about in this episode is how unnecessary it was to kill spike. Why didn't they just blockade all the exits from the hellmouth and then blow the top off the school so the actual sun would kill all the uber vamps. That amulet was not cool they shouldn't have killed spike he did so many good things in the last few seasons that he really deserved to be redeemed and not killed fo his actions. There are tons of other ways they could have successfully blown up the hellmouth it's just so frustrating they chose the poetic route and had to kill spike.

His death was part of his redemption, not exclusive from it.

I agree that the last battle makes little sense. But I just like it for the happy music and stuff.