Buffy's relationship with Giles

[dan k]

After watching a lot of season 7 tonight i noticed a moment in chosen which for me clarifies that Buffy and Giles still did have that bond which we loved seeing in the early seasons of the show.

The moment i picked up on was when Giles says he loves the idea of using the Scythe to make all of the girls that could be a slayer, slayers. He says its a brillant idea and she says something along the lines of "you really mean that"?, it means a lot.

Of course the relationship in season 7 was nothing like what we had loved previously but i think people are failing to see that the respect was still there even after what Giles had tried to do with Spike.

Buffy moving away from Giles in season 7 was sad to see but would people agree that it was necessary for her character to evolve in this specific season? After everything she'd been through she didn't need to be taught anything more, hence why she drifted further apart from Giles.

 

[pieceofgosa]

It's the natural evolution of the relationship between parent & child. Eventually the child will want to stand on their own two and the parent has to realise when it's time to let them.

 

[crazysoulless]

Except that I think Buffy was on her own and made plenty of tough decisions many years prior to season seven. Going to face The Master knowing that there was a prophecy she would be murdered that night. Sending her first love to Hell. Taking care of her dying mother. Having a full-time job and her own apartment for four months before starting her senior year of high school. Having a full-time since mid-season six onwards. Buffy also investigated a lot of things throughout the series without Giles' help. She stood up for herself and others and went head to head with professors, generals, principals, the head of the Watchers Council.

At the beginning of S6 Buffy truly needed Giles because she was severely depressed from being ripped out of Heaven. It was wrong to leave her in such a fragile state. And he had been complaining since early S4 that Buffy didn't need him and didn't come to him for help and that he didn't have much to offer her anymore. It was why he was going to leave in the S5 premiere. He admitted in Grave that sometimes the most adult thing you can do is ask for help when you need it and yet in S7 he comes to Sunnydale and forces even more responsibility onto her without any signs that he will help her. Infact, he clearly states that she is the one in charge and saving the day and all their lives falls to her.

I saw several signs in S7 from Buffy that she wanted Giles as her friend and as her mentor. The first thing she was going to do when she saw him in BOTN is hug him but Kennedy got in the way. She asked him if he would ever stop by for a real visit when the world isn't in peril and told him that she missed him. He yelled at her and the Scoobies for not taking what was happening seriously even though Buffy was the one having dreams since at least September of SITs being butchered and was the one letting them stay at her house and eat her food and was training them. He had a problem with Buffy and Xander going on one date (her with Wood, him with Lissa). And yet he foolishly let Faith take ALL of the Potentials out AT NIGHT and WITHOUT ANY WEAPONS to get drunk at a nightclub and without the best fighters in the group (Buffy, Spike). She was happy to go patrolling with him again in LMPTM but it turned out to be a trick to murder her second-in-command in terms of fighting skill.

 

[Eleftheria]

I always considered Giles the best father for Buffy. Buffy is a special slayer (since she is the only one who maintains a social life among other things of course) and Giles developed warm feelings for his Slayer. I missed that in s6 and s7. Giles was the one who called Willow "arrogant amateur" for the ressurection spell. So he knew, he could feel that sth was wrong with Buffy when she came back from the dead. Leaving her alone was tragic. Without her mother, no money, no college, Slayer responsibilities again...When he left he made one of the biggest mistakes of his life IMO.

When he came back to face Willow, Buffy and Giles laughed their asses off with the Scoobies' tragedies. It's one of those situations where you don't know what to do. He is gone for some months and everything goes to hell. I like that scene and I don't know if I should have tears in my eyes or not.

In s7, Buffy became colder and her relationship with Giles was damaged. I know that in Chosen there is still respect between them. I don't really blame Giles for what he did with Spike. He wanted to protect the Potentials plus he was mad at him since the AR thing. I just feel that Buffy changed a lot and I hate it that the innocence and love of their relationship is not there anymore.:confused2:

---------- Post added at 07:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 AM ----------

oh and crazysoulless your post is very nice...but it doesn't let me karma you again!

 

[white avenger]

I think that Buffy's real affection for and dependency on Giles began when her real father in effect deserted her and ran away to live with his secretary in Europe. As time progressed, that affection and dependency grew until Season 6, when he left her (in the worst emotional state of mind that she had ever been in) in order to force her to face and overcome her own problems. Not the greatest timing, in my opinion, but it seemed to work, and work so well that just a few months later Giles found himself for the first time reduced from the role of "mentor" to "trusted adviser," which was no doubt a role he resisted (hence the attempt to kill Spike) before finally accepting the fact that, while Buffy might love him as much as ever, SHE was now the leader of the group, not just the warrior.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I really hated to see the distance that grew between Giles and Buffy starting in Season 6 and carrying on through Season 7. It made me sad and even though I know children sometimes distance themselves quite a bit from their parents (me and my mom are a classic example), it was still incredibly depressing for me to see. After all, Buffy's birth father was a complete deadbeat, and Joyce was dead. I felt Buffy needed someone to step in and be that parental figure for her.

 

[dan k]

In the Season 6 finale when Giles returned he was met with a really big hug from Buffy. At that point of time, even though he hadn't been around for ages the relationship was still really strong. I think it was in season 7 where the change in the relationship started. Although like i said before, i take comfort in that scene where Buffy tells Giles she really does value his opinion. Nevertheless i got a sense that the bond they shared had been fractured some what, i don't read the comics so i can't comment on them.

 

[fly on the wall]

It's the natural evolution of the relationship between parent & child. Eventually the child will want to stand on their own two and the parent has to realise when it's time to let them.

I agree. To me, Giles' and Buffy's relationship in Season 7 wasn't less important or special. It was just different. A lot had changed in those six years...the most important being, Buffy grew up a lot. Their relationship changed accordingly, from protective father and dependent daughter, to watchful father and adult daughter.

 

[faeriegrrl27]

I always loved the Giles/Buffy relationship and the way it grew throughout the series. It was *real.* He was her father. There really isn't a discussion there. And he was her mentor and took care of her. My favorite example of this is Helpless, when Hank can't take Buffy to the ice show. Angel offers to take her and she says no, but later asks Giles to take her. I always thought that was the sweetest thing. But trust was broken over the course of the series and their relationship changed. Buffy grew up. Giles lost his place as "watcher" once that happened, and I think he had trouble dealing with what his role was. He was never just Buffy's watcher, but once she grew up and didn't need him as a teacher, he was uncomfortable in what he was to her. IMO he always knew he was her father figure and that she knew it, but the title allowed a certain "excuse" for that. By excuse I mean that Giles could justify his feelings and he had a purpose by being Watcher. And things changed when Buffy grew up and Giles was no longer needed as a watcher, but just as a friend and dad.
That's what I think led to their fracture.

 

[crazysoulless]

The scene when they are in the backroom of the Magic Shop in Grave is the last time I really saw the Giles/Buffy relationship I loved. Its so heartwarming to see them laughing like that together (to see Buffy laughing like that at all considering how depressed she was) and then when Giles puts on his serious face and says "I never should have left. Can you ever forgive me?"

I remember there were several people who once commented on that scene in BOTN after Buffy got nearly beaten to death (due to lack of sleep, worry about Spike, suddenly being the new Head of the Watchers Council with "the next generation" of potential Slayers arriving on her doorstep, prophetic dreams whenever she tried to sleep) and was in her bedroom listening to her friends in the dining room talk about her. They were saying that she might have internal bleeding and that she was their only hope and they don't know what they will do now. People thought that it seemed as if they were more concerned over the fact that their "protector" and "leader" might die than the fact that "Buffy" might die. It was very different than how they responded when Faith was injured in EOD. They looked truly concerned about Faith.

Giles yelled at the group for not taking things seriously enough and everyone is fine with that. And yet the very next episode when Buffy lectures the group for not living up to their potential or working as a team "You want to surprise the enemy? Surprise yourselves! Force yourself to do what can't be done" everyone thinks she is a bitch. In LMPTM Giles tells Buffy that she needs to stop playing the General and actually be the General and yet whenever she was the General people thought she was cold or undermined her every decision.

She checked on Dawn while she slept and still wanted her to go to school and have an education. She was helping troubled teens as a Guidance Counselor and then would come home and be the "mentor/role model/life guide" of dozens more troubled teens. She cutely teased Willow about Kennedy (holding hands under the dinner table, bringing her tea). She didn't angrily tell Wood she'd let Spike kill him, she told him about how she lost her own mother, that she understood why he tried to do what he did, tried to make him realize that the soulless monster that killed her didn't exist anymore (he was entering Holtz-style revenge), that she can't have dissention in the ranks like that with people plotting behind her back and tricking her, and that he was letting his quest for vengeance endanger the lives of everyone in the group since that was after her vision of the Turak-Han army and Spike was the second best fighter in the group (Buffy being first).

 

[ThomasMagic]

I kinda had the feeling that they lost touch after Giles went over to England.
He took on a fatherly role to Buffy and Dawn but never seemed to come fully into the picture.
It was kind of akward.
He was best at the start at the good old librarian!

 

[crazysoulless]

Did anyone else find it weird that he was still sweet to Willow and Faith but acted so different with Buffy? For the first six seasons it was made quite obvious that he loved and was closest to Buffy. She was his entire reason for being in the States, his love for her got him fired, he was usually the one that noticed something was bothering her way before anyone else, he valued her respect more than the others, he just had a completely different relationship with her than he did with the Scoobies.

 

[DoughnutHole]

Did anyone else find it weird that he was still sweet to Willow and Faith but acted so different with Buffy? For the first six seasons it was made quite obvious that he loved and was closest to Buffy. She was his entire reason for being in the States, his love for her got him fired, he was usually the one that noticed something was bothering her way before anyone else, he valued her respect more than the others, he just had a completely different relationship with her than he did with the Scoobies.

I agree with everything you've said in this thread. Generally, I just think they treated Buffy wretchedly in ithe last two seasons. So much so that I have trouble watching sometimes... and it probably explains why I love Seasons 1-5 so much more. I thought it was truly kind of Giles to give Buffy money in S6... it's something she desperately needed. But then he turned around and told her he was leaving. For her own good. I have always had trouble with that.

I get the feeling that he was treating her like all the other watchers had treated their slayers before. A real emotional detachment. It was made clear that he had a different kind of relationship with Buffy than what was considered acceptable by the council. He made sacrifices for her. But then, suddenly, he started to pull away... it just felt so wrong. But, then again, one of the main reasons I love the show is because of the tight friendship between Buffy, Willow, Xander, and Giles. Without that, it just felt different.

 

[crazysoulless]

I am glad there are other people that realize it wasn't just Buffy pulling away the last two seasons. She was severely depressed and not much was done by her friends to help her. They had one meeting in which they considered having movie nights or a book club but no follow through. While everyone was dealing with their own issues it was their RESPONSIBILITY to help Buffy recover since they were the ones that ripped her out of Heaven.

Willow was not addicted to magick. She was power hungry and didn't want to deal with the reasons that she was so reliant on magicks and the persona of the "badass lesbian witch" (she clung to it for cool points the same way she did to dating a guitarist, hence the constant "Hello? Gay now" comments) to hide the fact that she still felt like the loser geek that got picked on and ignored in her formative years.

Dawn dealt with a lot but none of that was why she acted out the way that she did, the main reason she felt so much pain in S6 was that she felt ignored by Buffy and the Scoobies. Which was all the more reason to help Buffy find her way back to the realm of the living and lively and reconnect with her loved ones. She just thought Buffy didn't want to be near her when the truth was that Buffy felt dead inside.

Tara knew that resurrection spells were wrong but went ahead of it because of Willow and ended up having to separate herself from the group out of fear for her own mental safety because of Willow's magick abuse. I was happy when Tara and Buffy became friends outside of the Willow link.

 

[Eleftheria]

^If I could karma you again, I would! You're right about Willow...I always felt that one of the reasons she brought Buffy back it's because she was so arrogant that she felt not even death could defeat her. I didn't see them bother really much for bringing her back to life...

Also I feel that in 6th season it was Giles' fault that he left...in the hardest hour for Buffy. But in 7th season I don't like Buffy's character so much. She got distant, cold and I felt the conection with Spike kind of forced. It was also her fault that she got distant from Giles. I wish their relationship was like it used to be. Back in high school!

 

[Tome]

The thing that bothers me about Giles in s7 isn't really the relationship with Buffy. It's more about how HE changed. It just never felt the same after he came back from england. He's not as funny, he's not laughing ever. His character just became kinda boring. I understand his father/daughter relationship with Buffy had to evolve at some point, but that doesn't mean suddently taking things away from his OWN personality!

Where did all the goofy Giles moments go? I wanted our old librarian back haha 😛

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

The thing that bothers me about Giles in s7 isn't really the relationship with Buffy. It's more about how HE changed. It just never felt the same after he came back from england. He's not as funny, he's not laughing ever. His character just became kinda boring. I understand his father/daughter relationship with Buffy had to evolve at some point, but that doesn't mean suddently taking things away from his OWN personality!

Where did all the goofy Giles moments go? I wanted our old librarian back haha 😛

Exactly! He changed. A lot. And they never had the same relathionship. Never ever. And he changed for worse. As you said, he wasn't so funny anymore, he was just boring and doing things he liked, the way he wanted them :/

 

[dan k]

I agree but couldn't you say that only happened because of the severity of the situation. This was the first evil and i got the feeling that Giles saw as a threat unlike anything that they had faced before. Not once in season 7 were things going well for the Potentials hence why the funny character in Giles didn't come out. There was a girl being murdered on a regular basis, it was no longer just the Scoobies who knew how to protect themselves.

The situation was a lot more serious and i think that's why Giles behaviour changed. Nevertheless i too missed that Giles we all loved in the previous seasons.

 

[Flannen]

Giles is my favourite character and the reason that he is the only one that I still like him by the end is because he remained consistent so I disagree that he changed.

No funny moments? May I remind you of this:

GILES: You think I'm evil...if I bring a group of girls on a camping trip and don't touch them?

And his joy at the sight of Jaffa cakes!? 😉

While moments like that are few and far between, I agree with dan k that Giles was probably one of the most aware of what was going on. He'd been in England and must have come across the bodies of his colleagues and their SITs. He knew that this was going to be one of their biggest obstacles and along with his fractured relationship with Buffy post LMPTM he also had Willow's rehab in mind, etc. Saying all that, he's still Giles to me.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Well, there were some funny scenes, but just few of them. I like Giles, very, very much. But the thing is that he changed. And we all felt it on screen.