Can Bangel fans give me a good reason why Buffy and Angel are the better ship?

[garfan]

Adam was never a good, much less great, judge of character because he didn't have to be. His plans worked so long as he understood what motivated his supporters and his enemies.

Adam did not have any interest in Buffy's good character. He just needed the Slayer in the Initiative bunker when the demons were released to even the kill rates.

Adam's failure was in not considering the wild creativity of his enemies. His failure with Spike was in not clocking Spike's fundamental incompetence at creating and executing a rational plan.

knowing someone's character is frequently key to understanding their motivations

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Boy, you've opened a can of worms here. I know better then to ignite the ship war debates again, lol.

I'm obviously a Spuffy shipper, but if I was asked for my opinion, I'd simply say there is no "better" ship, there's just personal preference.

I'm too tired these days to debate ships, but from my experience in the past, Bangel shippers main argument is that Angel is Buffy's soulmate, because he was her first love, and they claim her comment about "loving him more than anything in this life" proves that.

 

[KaitKat]

I'm too tired these days to debate ships, but from my experience in the past, Bangel shippers main argument is that Angel is Buffy's soulmate, because he was her first love, and they claim her comment about "loving him more than anything in this life" proves that.

Not that I ship Spuffy but I do think Angel and Buffy tend to romanticize their own past. I also think the idea of never moving on from your first love is sad and not romantic. I think all three of Buffy’s relationships had their place in her story narratively speaking.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Boy, you've opened a can of worms here. I know better then to ignite the ship war debates again, lol.

I'm obviously a Spuffy shipper, but if I was asked for my opinion, I'd simply say there is no "better" ship, there's just personal preference.

I'm too tired these days to debate ships, but from my experience in the past, Bangel shippers main argument is that Angel is Buffy's soulmate, because he was her first love, and they claim her comment about "loving him more than anything in this life" proves that.

I've never seen anyone debate reason they're soulmates because he was her first love. You can find your 'soulmate' (if one believes in that) on your 4th partner, or 10th.

But it's clear they share a deep connection. She never really had that with anyone else.

Not that I ship Spuffy but I do think Angel and Buffy tend to romanticize their own past. I also think the idea of never moving on from your first love is sad and not romantic. I think all three of Buffy’s relationships had their place in her story narratively speaking.

I'd say it's partly sad, but we have to look at their circumstances here. They never truly got to have a proper relationship. That obviously deeply hurts them both, the 'what if'. Because if it wasn't for the soul issue, they'd be together.

 

[thetopher]

But it's clear they share a deep connection. She never really had that with anyone else.

Probably because Angel was the only love interest she actively pursued. Parker targeted her, Riley courted her, Spike stalked her and wore her down, she didn't really have to 'do' anything, romantically speaking, except...be receptive, I guess. And even then she was never 'receptive enough' for them.

Basically destiny gave her Angel and then Buffy just sat around and waited for destiny to give her a 'same as or better' offer but it never happened.

 

[KaitKat]

They never truly got to have a proper relationship. That obviously deeply hurts them both, the 'what if'. Because if it wasn't for the soul issue, they'd be together.

I agree and I do think it’s why they romanticize their own past. They see their relationship through rose colored goggles and truly believe things like if it weren’t for the curse we would have had the perfect relationship, then after that there’s other obstacles. I think the thing that often gets lost is that Buffy was 16 and definitely not done growing. I do think she eventually would have eventually grown away from him but people especially young people fight harder when they believe it’s them against the whole world. I also think that Angel was just at the start of his journey as well and while being with Buffy helped him take the first steps he came into his own away from her in L.A.

Probably because Angel was the only love interest she actively pursued. Parker targeted her, Riley courted her, Spike stalked her and wore her down, she didn't really have to 'do' anything, romantically speaking, except...be receptive, I guess. And even then she was never 'receptive enough' for them.

I agree with this. Actually in the first couple seasons he’s so hot and cold sometimes that it almost functions the same way a toxic relationship does. I don’t think it’s intentional I think he’s just bad at human romantic relationships but in the beginning he’s basically only giving her enough to keep her coming back and chasing him. Once you’ve been in a relationship like that you mistake how intense the highs are for being more in love.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Probably because Angel was the only love interest she actively pursued. Parker targeted her, Riley courted her, Spike stalked her and wore her down, she didn't really have to 'do' anything, romantically speaking, except...be receptive, I guess. And even then she was never 'receptive enough' for them.

Basically destiny gave her Angel and then Buffy just sat around and waited for destiny to give her a 'same as or better' offer but it never happened.

I love the way Riley and Buffy built towards their relationship, I don't think she'd experienced something like that before.

I agree and I do think it’s why they romanticize their own past. They see their relationship through rose colored goggles and truly believe things like if it weren’t for the curse we would have had the perfect relationship, then after that there’s other obstacles.

Maybe. But I think both of them are aware than even if his soul remained intact, there are, as you mentioned, other obstacles to consider. If they did remain together long-term, they'd have to have a real discussion on what would happen. Buffy would eventually age and pass away.

I think the thing that often gets lost is that Buffy was 16 and definitely not done growing.

Absolutely! However, Buffy's unique in the sense that she'd had to mature faster than your regular teen. She faces death on a daily basis and likely views life and romantic relationships differently.

As corny as the 'cookie dough' speech was, she was right. She wasn't done baking. When she had that talk with Angel I'm not sure she'd shared with him that they were going to activate all potential slayers, which means that Buffy might be able to live a somewhat 'normal' life, so it was probably in the back of her mind when they had their exchange.

I do think she eventually would have eventually grown away from him

If anything, it would've been the issue of her being a slayer and him being a vampire. Not that they didn't have things in common or didn't love one another.

I mean, having serious discussions about the future is probably difficult for them to have, considering the danger they're constantly in.

but people especially young people fight harder when they believe it’s them against the whole world.

It can be like that, but then there's 'high school sweethearts' who remain together. Sometimes it works.

I also think that Angel was just at the start of his journey as well and while being with Buffy helped him take the first steps he came into his own away from her in L.A.

I agree. And funnily enough, Spike was able to show some growth away from Buffy as well.


Wherever Buffy is right now, I hope she's happy. If she chooses to be single, good for her. Or whether she's found love with a nice, normal guy (or gal!). As we saw, relationships with vampires were kinda doomed.

Joan the Vampire Slayer I'd had a lot of Bangel shippers make that argument,

I'm sure there's a number of Bangel fans who make that point.

that since he's her first love, she will compare everyone to him, no one will come close, etc.

Like I said - first love doesn't equal 'soulmate'. But I don't think it's more about Angel being her first love, but more about that she was the most comfortable with him. She felt safest with him, he understood her like no one else could. They share a deep love and connection.

It's why they still weaved in and out of one another's lives. It's why Buffy, even after everything she'd been through tells him in s7 that she sometimes thinks ahead of a life with him.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Like I said - first love doesn't equal 'soulmate'. But I don't think it's more about Angel being her first love, but more about that she was the most comfortable with him. She felt safest with him, he understood her like no one else could. They share a deep love and connection.

It's why they still weaved in and out of one another's lives. It's why Buffy, even after everything she'd been through tells him in s7 that she sometimes thinks ahead of a life with him.

Oh, I completely agree first love does not equal soulmate. I was just making the point that's the argument I hear most often from Bangel fans when arguing why he's Buffy's "soulmate."

I'd disagree she felt safest with Angel though. He was a vampire after all, and especially not after he lost his soul and become Angelus. She'd be stupid to feel truly safe after that - though I do believe she wanted to. As much as I dislike Riley, I would argue she felt safest with him - mainly because she knew she was stronger than him, because he was only human, and I think Riley did a good job of making her emotionally safe. I'm referring to their relationship before the whole letting a vampire suck his blood disaster of course. That action destroyed her trust in him.

I do not argue Angel and Buffy shared a deep love and connection, and that Buffy was very much in love with Angel. I just don't believe he's her "soulmate" or the one she should end up with.

 

[hoponlilmama]

I'd disagree she felt safest with Angel though. He was a vampire after all, and especially not after he lost his soul and become Angelus.

So she'll never feel safe with Spike either. Girl needs herself a good human guy (or gal!) to be with. Or be happily single.

She'd be stupid to feel truly safe after that - though I do believe she wanted to. As much as I dislike Riley, I would argue she felt safest with him - mainly because she knew she was stronger than him, because he was only human, and I think Riley did a good job of making her emotionally safe. I'm referring to their relationship before the whole letting a vampire suck his blood disaster of course. That action destroyed her trust in him.

Interesting. I can see your point! I think Briley had something beautiful together. Know you're not a fan, and that's perfectly fine too. 🙂

I do not argue Angel and Buffy shared a deep love and connection, and that Buffy was very much in love with Angel. I just don't believe he's her "soulmate" or the one she should end up with.

Fair enough, not everyone believes so.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Buffy falls in love with Angel but we do not really see interactions that would cement this as love. We just see a high school girl becoming attached to a handsome man who is six feet tall and that is to be expected. But looking good together is not really the basis for a relationship. And once it is established, it goes in the only direction it can - Angel gets revealed as a vampire.

In terms of things you can do with a story, Spuffy does much better. Spike has dramatic changes in his behaviour and we witness something that changes enough to make his metamorphosis into the continuous drama that is the stuff of a television series. Spuffy is an abusive relationship but we get to see drama that look real and has some connection with people we know, not the "happily ever after" story of Bangel.

 

[NoShip]

Buffy falls in love with Angel but we do not really see interactions that would cement this as love. We just see a high school girl becoming attached to a handsome man who is six feet tall and that is to be expected. But looking good together is not really the basis for a relationship. And once it is established, it goes in the only direction it can - Angel gets revealed as a vampire.

In terms of things you can do with a story, Spuffy does much better. Spike has dramatic changes in his behaviour and we witness something that changes enough to make his metamorphosis into the continuous drama that is the stuff of a television series. Spuffy is an abusive relationship but we get to see drama that look real and has some connection with people we know, not the "happily ever after" story of Bangel.

Yeah.... NO.

Spike is dramatic and abusive and mostly hilariously assinine. The "dramatic" changes in his behavior mostly make him a more boring character. Spike is continuous drama, but, not in an interesting or ever enjoyable way. His obsessive entitlement to Buffy becomes boring by the middle of S5, and, after S6's horrific abuse fest, putting Spike and Buffy in the same room episode after episode after episode after episode is just total cringe.

How is Bangel a "happily ever after" story? They never get to ride off into the sunset [sunrise?] much less approach the ever after.

 

[KaitKat]

I love the way Riley and Buffy built towards their relationship, I don't think she'd experienced something like that before.

Agreed.

I also don’t disagree with anything you said per say I just really think that Buffy is at an age where she romanticizes the dark tragic love and thinks of it as a better love even though it wasn’t ever really stable. By the time you’re in your 30s the melodrama looks like a nightmare. Of course they could have matured, I’m personally married to the man I dated in high school, I just don’t see it with them. They have more of a supernova all consuming love than the warmth of a late spring day kind of love. Obviously I know others will see it differently.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Yeah.... NO.

Spike is dramatic and abusive and mostly hilariously assinine. The "dramatic" changes in his behavior mostly make him a more boring character. Spike is continuous drama, but, not in an interesting or ever enjoyable way. His obsessive entitlement to Buffy becomes boring by the middle of S5, and, after S6's horrific abuse fest, putting Spike and Buffy in the same room episode after episode after episode after episode is just total cringe.

How is Bangel a "happily ever after" story? They never get to ride off into the sunset [sunrise?] much less approach the ever after.

Huh, could've sworn I responded to this post, but that was the exact same thing I was thinking of. Angel and Buffy did not ride off into the sunset together.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Agreed.

I also don’t disagree with anything you said per say I just really think that Buffy is at an age where she romanticizes the dark tragic love and thinks of it as a better love even though it wasn’t ever really stable. By the time you’re in your 30s the melodrama looks like a nightmare. Of course they could have matured, I’m personally married to the man I dated in high school, I just don’t see it with them. They have more of a supernova all consuming love than the warmth of a late spring day kind of love. Obviously I know others will see it differently.

True in a sense, but I imagine in the years since her split with Angel (and all the things she's been through since) she's probably reflected on things. Angel too. It could very well been a love that fizzled out - but we'll never truly know.

 

[KaitKat]

True in a sense, but I imagine in the years since her split with Angel (and all the things she's been through since) she's probably reflected on things. Angel too. It could very well been a love that fizzled out - but we'll never truly know.

My take on it is that they loved each other but they didn’t have a healthy relationship. With that said they did actually like each other which is why Bagel is better than Spuffy but Riley is her healthiest on screen option but Buffy was still too upset about Angel to invest in that relationship which is fine but I do think in an AU where Buffy finished college and didn’t meet him as a freshman they could have really had something.

 

[hoponlilmama]

My take on it is that they loved each other but they didn’t have a healthy relationship. With that said they did actually like each other which is why Bagel is better than Spuffy but Riley is her healthiest on screen option but Buffy was still too upset about Angel to invest in that relationship which is fine but I do think in an AU where Buffy finished college and didn’t meet him as a freshman they could have really had something.

It was a flawed relationship - as were all her others. Well, other. What she had with Spike I wouldn't call a relationship.

Buffy had Angel always in the back of her mind, but she did try to move on. First with Parker (thankfully that went nowhere though - he was a tool and they had zero chemistry) then Riley. Then they tried to make something happen with Ben.

I think Buffy would've been all-in on Briley, but the writers got feedback that audiences disliked Riley or found him boring. The next relationship Buffy would've had after Angel was always going to be an uphill battle.

But I think you're onto something - the writers dived in too soon to give Buff a 'love interest' in s4. Perhaps if they'd started their relationship later. Or an AU where they were friends only but he comes back in s7 and things get romantic between them at that point.

I was a Briley fan from the start - it's just a shame the writers had to put a stake through it.

 

[KaitKat]

I think Buffy would've been all-in on Briley, but the writers got feedback that audiences disliked Riley or found him boring. The next relationship Buffy would've had after Angel was always going to be an uphill battle

By the time the series ended I think Buffy would have relished in boring. With that said I wish that writers (in any show) just tell the story they want to tell without catering to fans.

 

[NotASlayer]

But I think you're onto something - the writers dived in too soon to give Buff a 'love interest' in s4. Perhaps if they'd started their relationship later. Or an AU where they were friends only but he comes back in s7 and things get romantic between them at that point.

I was a Briley fan from the start - it's just a shame the writers had to put a stake through it.

You know, in universe time could well have helped. In S5 in universe, Riley was coming down and withdrawing from whatever hellish combination of experimental drugs, mind control and surgery he had been subjected to, mostly unknowingly, at the hands of Maggie Walsh. And it looked like he was her primary guinea pig. Unlike the rest of the Initiative survivors, he wouldn't have been getting any help either. Witness the difference between Riley and Graham in Out of My Mind, or S6 Riley after rejoining. Given what he was subjected to, it's amazing he was even vaguely sane trying to recover without help.

 

[NoShip]

I tried to watch those ship edits with Buffy and Angel, but I really don't feel anything. Spuffy's better...sorrryyy

I truly appreciate openness about one's personal biases......even when one is wrong! 😁

 

[NoShip]

My preferred option; I would have loved to have seen S2 Spike return, the best Spike. Especially if it could have led to the return of Spike and Dru.

An absolutely awesome S6 ending and S7: Spike does not go to Africa. He goes to Dru!!! With her wild magic, Dru de-chips Spike.

So..... A full powered Spike and a full powered Dru accompionied by a bunch of fully characterized minions, blows into Sunnydale in S7 E5 "Him" and blood soaked chaos ensues.

This would be true "back to the beginning" where Buffy could learn all the lessons she learned in reality S7 and we could see the best Spike with his best girl and the Scoobies would be the focus instead of Spuffy and the potentials.

Given Dru's wild magic, ghostly visits from the Mayor and Glory and even The First Evil could be a thing. Also the Uruk-Hai would make a lot more sense than what we got. The Council could visit, or get blown to hell. Coming from Spike and Dru it would always make a weird kind of sense and with Marsters and Landau in charge of the mayhem, you know it would always be a lot of fun.