Captain Marvel is a villain

[TriBel]

That message is also kind of damaging to real women as it implies that unless they react aggressively to a certain behaviour then they're not "strong" because this is how a "strong woman" reacts to "sexist" comments from men.

How is a "real" women meant to respond to sexist comments (genuine question)? If you simply walk away, aren't you implicitly condoning it? Do you stand your ground, argue your point and risk the situation escalating? Perhaps it would be better if men learned not to make the comments in the first instance.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

How is a "real" women meant to respond to sexist comments (genuine question)? If you simply walk away, aren't you implicitly condoning it? Do you stand your ground, argue your point and risk the situation escalating?

If you ignore it then the man has nothing to work with, he hasn't gotten a reaction. You're not condoning it, you're just not dignifying it with an answer. Reacting makes it a show that the man will play to.

My whole point though was the fact that in tv and movies, "strong" women are shown to be physically aggressive with men and it's treated as some sort of "feminism" because a woman is "standing up" for herself against the bad evil men of the world. Real life is not like that, Therefore, if a "strong" woman is one who can take on men in a fight and win, does that mean that women who can't do that are "weak"?

It's fair to say that men do tend to be physically stronger than women in general (as a result of evolution), it's the whole "you don't hit girls" lesson taught to them in school. It's why it is considered emasculating for a man to be beaten physically by a woman (and also why men physically abused by women find it so difficult to speak out). In a one on one fight, a woman is likely to come off worst, that doesn't mean she can't do damage but depending on the guy, she'll probably be at a physical disadvantage.

"Strong" women are presented as having attitude and being physically capable of taking on men. They might have a dark/abusive past as well and will either be a lesbian or have a man yearning after them. They'll have "walls" that need to be broken down before emotional intimacy is possible. They're your stereotypical female lead character and will be lauded as "an example of feminism in action". Helpless is a good episode in that it takes away Buffy's physical advantage yet shows her winning via using her smarts. She couldn't physically overpower Kralik but she could trick him. She's still "strong" even if it's not physically. Plus she demonstrates resilience and an ability to bounce back from what life throws at her, the later seasons went to OTT over what life throws at Buffy (everything but the kitchen sink it seems).

The Watchers Council are seen as representative of the "patriarchy" in regards to the slayer aka a group of men keeping a woman under their control. However, I don't think this is entirely accurate as we do see several female watchers. It might be a predominately male profession but it's not exclusively male and times change which will be reflected in the attitudes of upcoming watchers.

Perhaps it would be better if men learned not to make the comments in the first instance.

In an ideal world that would be the case, but we're not in an ideal world.

 

[Name the Stars]

Superhero movies are power fantasies. Being able to show a harasser what you really think about him is a fantasy for many women. Male superheroes are violent and combative in their movies because these characters are simply power fantasies. It might have less to do with feminism, and more to do with women living their secret desires out through a hyper-powerful movie heroine.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Superhero movies are power fantasies. Being able to show a harasser what you really think about him is a fantasy for many women. Male superheroes are violent and combative in their movies because these characters are simply power fantasies. It might have less to do with feminism, and more to do with women living their secret desires out through a hyper-powerful movie heroine.

I agree. I think this clip illustrates that well.

 

[TriBel]

If you ignore it then the man has nothing to work with, he hasn't gotten a reaction. You're not condoning it, you're just not dignifying it with an answer. Reacting makes it a show that the man will play to.

Doesn't "not speaking out" just normalize sexism?

 

[GraceK]

And again, why is no one mentioning that he physically touched her map? He pulled it down and got up close in her space? He used his physical presence to intimidate her, sexually. 🤦🏻‍♀️ he also said IN WORDS that she was obligated to smile for him in exchange for help, even though she didn’t ask for help. How on earth isn’t this whole scene not predatory and a setup for violence in some way? He’s assuming she’s a normal woman and cannot do anything. He’s using his manhood and strength to dominate the situation, which happens ALL THE TIME, and women are constantly confronted with this . And we have to find ways to get ourselves out of situations like this that could harm us. Whether it’s through laughing, or shrugging it off, or calling for help, or trying to diffuse the situation by turning him down easy and just flirting “ enough” so he’s not offended and doesn’t hurt us. And sometimes he hurts us anyway because he’s stronger. In this case the woman was stronger and turned it around.

Why do you think so many hate crimes happen against gay men? Why do some straight men get so violent when a gay man hits on them? Or invades their space? ” gay panic “ is actually a real defense used in court, that men are so scared or freaked out when other men try to touch them inappropriately or invade their space in a sexual matter that they react violently. As in, welcome to the life of a woman .

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Doesn't "not speaking out" just normalize sexism?

No.

1. If the bloke is making sexist comments towards you in the first place, he doesn't care what you think anyway, so why continue to engage in that?

2. If there are people watching, they're going to have their own opinion on the scene playing out before them. That's not going to change with a speech about how that man's behaviour is wrong. Either they'll already think the man is in the wrong or they won't in which case a random woman going off on one isn't going to make a difference. A speech from their wife/girlfriend/mother/other female relative or male relative might, but not a random stranger.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

even though she didn’t ask for help.

But she didn't decline his help. She instead shot him a sexy eye glance which could be misconstrued. She was standing there with a scuba suit on, not near enough to a car that it could be viewed as hers and she was looking at a map, indicating if not lost she was at least trying to figure out how to get to where she was going. He merely asked her if she needed a ride.

And honestly, if he were going to help her out and give her a ride is it unreasonable to think she would actually smile and show some semblance of gratitude?

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

"I feel like I live in a world of cardboard..."

 

[DeadlyDuo]

@Spanky

Hedging my bets 😉

 

[thrasherpix]

In the extended version, which was released exclusively to USA Today on Thursday, Danvers becomes a straight up villain. The man, played by Rob Kazinsky, rides up to the Blockbuster while Danvers is looking at a map, wearing her superhero costume. “Nice scuba suit,” the man says jokingly. Danvers glares at him and goes back to her map.

The man then asks, “Do you need a ride, Darlin’?” and pushes down the top of her map. “How about a smile for me?” he asks, in the creepiest way possible. She responds, “a smile?” And he says, “Yeah, you want me to help you? The least you could do is give me a smile.” To be sure, this is jerky behavior. No one owes you a smile or anything else just because you offered to help them (she hadn’t even accepted any such help). But what Danvers does next proves she’s the real villain in this scene.

She asks the man if he’d accept a handshake, and he does. She says her name is Vers, to which the man responds, “People call me, ‘The Don.’” With no other provocation, Danvers tightly grips the man’s hand so he can’t get away. She then uses her super “hero” strength as a vice grip and sends the man to his knees in pain. “Here’s a proposition for you,” Danvers says. “You’re gonna give me your jacket, your helmet, and your motorcycle. And in return, I’m going to let you keep your hand.”

“Take it,” the man says in extreme pain while handing Danvers his keys. “What, no smile?” Danvers asks with a grin.

Then she looks at a display mannequin, steals its clothes (did the shopkeeper also ask her to smile?) and drives off on the motorcycle driving on the wrong side of the road, nearly hitting a car (did the driver ask her to smile?)

Let’s recap. After a jerk suggested he would help her in a creepy way and asked for a smile, Danvers crushed his hand, carjacked him, took his clothes, and stole items from a nearby clothing store and broke traffic laws. And this is supposed to be a celebration of feminism and rebuke of toxic masculinity?

I don't see this as comparable to how Buffy handled Larry.

One, Larry actually grabbed her (technically sexually assault), and she merely ended the threat, she didn't make him beg and plead or take revenge. Buffy remained on the side of justified self-defense (and if Larry got some suspension over it, or an adult gone to jail over it after, then all the better), whereas the scenario we're given with Danvers is more about vengeance and dominance displays, taunting and robbing him. Had Danvers instead knocked him on his butt (warning optional) and let things roll from there without robbery and taunting then it would be comparable to Buffy with Larry.

(Though I bet Faith would, and even if it wasn't heroic or restrained like Buffy, it would be great to see...speaking as one who has been punched in the face by a jock while I was in school myself, and seeing them get away with everything as they do at Sunnydale High. By my enjoyment of it wouldn't make it ethically sound, but THEN it could be compared to the scene with Danvers.)

The Buffy scene that I find more comparable to this and the over the top response was how Vampire Willow reacted to Percy when he tried to bully Willow with extreme obnoxiousness (and even then Vampire Willow wasn't this bad, she was merely toying with him and then forgot about him the moment she saw Xander).

As for stealing stuff...Buffy did that in Bad Girls. It wasn't shown as heroic (though given the exact circumstances I think it qualifies for the label "anti-heroic" rather than villainous), and I doubt the majority would cheer her on for it. Nor was Giles for plundering clothes off a mannequin for Joyce, though he's excused for being under a spell as he did so, and thus not in his right mind.



Overall, while I'm glad they kept this scene out for my own taste, but I can understand why others (including me when I was younger) would've loved it, and even today I wouldn't actually feel sympathetic for the guy as he got his ass handed from him and robbed, just noting that it's not heroic or mere self-defense (though also that she was having a really bad day with an important mission while he was a jerk who conveniently had what she needed)...but even when I was younger, the ripping it from Terminator 2 would dilute it. Aesthetics aside, it would still be shrugged off by me if it was left in, though I'd agree it wasn't heroic (but I didn't see her in "hero mode" just yet at that point). (I recall someone above saying how this could be used for genuine character growth for the character, and that would've been great, IMO.)

Nor would I see her as an average woman, she's not intimidated or endangered but has great power, and with great power comes great responsibility (that she later embraces), or at least restraint.

Ultimately, it's not different from when Superman got his powers back and then went back to some bar or whatever as Kent and smacked those bullies around who had given him a hard time earlier (and some Superman fans have a problem with that scene as well, btw). And given how dark superhero movies these days tend to be, it's pretty minor all things considered (though as a first world country we have the luxury or nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking), and if the writer is only complaining of Danvers and not all the others then that would beg the question of why.

 

[thetopher]

Whether it’s through laughing, or shrugging it off, or calling for help, or trying to diffuse the situation by turning him down easy and just flirting “ enough” so he’s not offended and doesn’t hurt us.

In this situation couldn't she have said 'no thanks, I'm good'. And yet that never happened.

And sometimes he hurts us anyway because he’s stronger. In this case the woman was stronger and turned it around.

So he does physical intimidation (by 'touching her map') and he's a massive creep and she's reciprocates with intimidation + actual physical harm + humiliation and she's a hero? Gotcha.

Why do you think so many hate crimes happen against gay men? Why do some straight men get so violent when a gay man hits on them? Or invades their space? ” gay panic “ is actually a real defense used in court, that men are so scared or freaked out when other men try to touch them inappropriately or invade their space in a sexual matter that they react violently. As in, welcome to the life of a woman .

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that a woman has never sexually harassed or assaulted a man. Well allow me to illuminate and say that there are plenty of men who have their asses and crotches openly grabbed by women IN PUBLIC and its almost always played for laughs/not taken seriously ('cause all men want sex all the time, that's just logic).
In private when it happens and it tends to be more sinister. For example a workplace encounter when the woman continually harasses the man in private and says that if he says anything then she'll report him to HR and get him fired (because her sexual assault claims will be believed and backed up by her friends and his won't be, because he's a guy).

Sexual harassment comes in a variety of forms but I wonder if a man would be so highly lauded if he went off and clocked a woman who was pawing at him, 'cause she was being 'predatory'.

 

[white avenger]

And again, why is no one mentioning that he physically touched her map? He pulled it down and got up close in her space? He used his physical presence to intimidate her,

Clearly, she was not intimidated, and, because of her physical superiority (she knew it, even if he didn't) there was no threat, either actual or implied. Remove the whole superhuman factor and substitute martial arts training. Now, try and explain to a judge in a court of law.

You "I was looking at a map, and he pulled it down and said that if I would smile for him, he would help me, o I crushed his hand, took his jacket, and stole his motorcycle.".

Judge "We'll ignore the theft of property for the moment. Did you feel threatened in any way?"

You "No, your honor. I'm a 5th degree black belt and a martial arts instructor at X Martial Arts Studio."

Judge "Did he threaten you with any sort of weapon, or even give any sort of indication that he might have one?"

You "No, your honor, but he invaded my personal space, so I felt justified in teaching him a lesson."

Judge "Well, your personal space for the next 30 days will be in the county jail while you await charged for assault and battery and grand theft auto. Next case"

It's funny in a movie to see a supposed bully finally get what you think is coming to him, but a totally different story in real life.

 

[Taake]

Pretty much everything people do in superhero movies would be a totally different story in real life though.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

This may be seen as liberation by some women but it also plays into the trope of the woman who is dangerous "because hormones". One of the reasons women have been viewed as unstable is premenstrual stress causing them to do and say things they wouldn't ordinarily and this has been used as an excuse to keep them out of various professions from medicine to engineering or sciences such as physics where the female constitution is viewed as detrimental (if not just plain mental). Everyone with that view of females would look at that scene and say, "See, I told you so."

It was quite popular in the 1800's for English women to be taught mathematics as a counterforce to the "feminine condition" to avoid developing "the vapours" and the computers we all use are a product of Ada Augusta Byron, Countess of Lovelace who was the first programmer. She was an associate of Charles Babbage whose calculating engine was made more useful by programming it like a Jacquard loom. It had the capability to branch forward or backward 128 address locations and other things we see in modern computers. A century later, it was women who programmed the first electronic computers and invented the compiler in a group headed by Grace Hopper and now we are an a forum owned and moderated by women. A woman's work is never done.

The scene Captain Marvel was in reduces whatever battle she is in as evil vs. evil rather than good vs. evil, like the gang warfare between the Crips and the Bloods. I don't feel invested in any outcome and casualties on either side can be viewed as the cost of doing business or one less evil person in the world. Superpowers do not make a superhero, they make a superperson and whether that person is a hero or not is judged solely by how they decide to use their powers. Administering pain and theft of items belonging to another person is not heroic use of power.

Whether it's Kristy Swanson stealing the biker's motorcycle or the "Bad Girls" episode of Buffy where Faith and Buffy break into a sporting goods store and steal stuff then get away from the cops after being arrested, this is a violation of statute and lack of a Y chromosome does not mitigate it.

There is a modern style of writing where the heroes are not 100% good and the villains are not 100% bad and writing the character as flawed is considered to add darkness to the story and is valued as being more realistic by some people. But by making the hero somewhat flawed only endears the person to the reader/viewer if the flaw is something we can be sympathetic to. If the flaw is violence and grand theft auto, not so much.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Normally, you say 'excuse me' when you approach someone in public. You don't move whatever they're reading away from their field of vision and demand a smile for an unsolicited offer of help.

That being said, the article does have a point. The violence is excessive and both it and the theft are criminal.

However, the article lacks credibility. The tone is hostile. It opens by assuming I already hate the character. It robs the movie of its context within pop culture and superhero/action film. It is part of a trend of targeting this particular movie. It puts the movie at the forefront of an ideological assault on what is good and proper just so it can attack it on the pedestal it placed it on. The editor of this newsite thinks the biggest problem today is that Pewdiepie doesn't have enough subscribers.

 

[white avenger]

(The article) opens by assuming I already hate the character

There is a lot of hatred for Captain Marvel throughout the MCU fandom. I started out apprehensive about her role would be in "Endgame," and I would have been extremely angry and disappointed if she had single handedly overwhelmed Thanos, or even actually played a major role in his ultimate defeat, mainly because I would have seen it as an unnecessary deus ex machina and a theft of the original cast's ultimate right to prove themselves.Feige specifically said even before "Endgame" that the specific purpose pf "Captain America: Civil War" was to split up the team so that they wouldn't be able to handle Thanos, the implication being that, united, they would have been able to do so. Happily, Captain Marvel's role in "Endgame" was quite minor, though she did contribute to the victory. I have

I have no problem with the character of Captain Marvel, though I do hope that she eventually loses about 99% of her arrogance. Everything that I hear and read about Brei Larsen, however, convinces me that she is going to be disruptive to the team spirit and family atmosphere that the cast and crew of the MCU has enjoyed for the last 11 years, because I honestly believe that that has been a major contributing factor to the success of the franchise.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

@white avenger

I don't know if Capt Marvel is hateable or not, because I have never seen the movie or read the comics. My issue is that the article starts by saying 'if you' then 'wait 'til you'. The point of the article is not to demonstarte that Capt Marvel is hateable. The point is to demonstrate that Capt Marvel is even more hateable than the readers of Dailywire think she is.

I think @Bluebird is on point when she calls it an echo chamber. The article is written with the explicit assumption that it is preaching to the converted, which makes it little more than a communal masturbatory hate-fest. If it was trying to make a serious argument about casual violence in action flicks, then maybe i would take it more seriously.

 

[white avenger]

"Converted" implies that the readers ever liked the character in the first place. I've never read the comics, but my impression was that Captain Marvel was a very weak (unpopular) character who couldn't maintain a fan base and was relegated to brief appearances in various other titles. Elevating such a character to he rank of "most powerful hero in the Marvel universe" by Kevin Feige seems to be nothing more than a political gesture. Added to that, Ms Larsen's statements hat she would accept no criticism of her performance unless it came from women of color seems to be a put off to all of those wite men who buy the vast majority of the movie tickets so that they and their families can see her movies is kind of a put off.

Personally, I didn't know the lady from Adam's off ox before all of this came up, and I had to be reminded that she had been one of the (forgettable) stars of the latest King Kong movie.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

"Converted" implies that the readers ever liked the character in the first place.

Also preaching to the converted is pretty much the only thing people read online. Few people it seems go to read opposing viewpoints.